December 2001 posts
OT - 11th Poem for Christmas -- Brian,
04:36:23 12/19/01 Wed
Snowbound lover,
Her ice kisses are cosmic fire.
She summons the storm.
Heavy, tumbling flakes caress
Her shadow white face.
And with those dark laughing eyes,
She fills the quiet wood,
Becoming the midnight sun.
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[> This is my favourite, so far Brian -- Wisewoman, 13:12:07 12/19/01 Wed
Seems quite pagan to me, and conjures up the Winter Solstice.
;o)
"The Body," revisited (Spoilers) -- Darby, 07:40:24 12/19/01 Wed
Thoughts after having watched The Body again…
It was powerful, that much I remembered from the first time. I especially liked Anya’s part, even
moreso this time. It was, however, a very different experience now than it was then, and I realize
now why: the first time through, I watched knowing that in the Buffyverse, dead isn’t necessarily
dead. We were in the middle of an arc involving a "Key"; who knew if Dawn could undo
Joyce’s death? (She could, sort of, but that was a non-Key tangent…)
It’s only now, in retrospect, that I can watch the episode and really grasp the weight of what’s
happening. Joyce is not coming back, everyone’s life is going to be changed forever, some more than
others (I hadn’t connected Willow’s change in wardrobe choices to a specific episode, but I suspect
that this is it). The Body was real, in so many ways, but I didn’t appreciate how real at the
time.
Anyone else having the same reaction?
PS with an observation from my wife - it had been a while since the Willow-Xander relationship was
really featured, but the alternating "I'll lose it, you reel me back" scene reminded us how
much we missed it. Xander really is the heart of the show, which currently has very little
heart...
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[> Re: "The Body," revisited (Spoilers) -- Shaglio, 08:53:00 12/19/01 Wed
I too forgot how awesome it was. It thought it was pretty cool how the FX 7:00 BtVS episode was
IWMTLY, which was the episode that directly preceeded The Body so that the night had a sort of
smoothe continuity for me.
I also forgot about my favorite Buffy scene ever (excerpt taken from Psyche's transcript):
XANDER: (looks around at the three of them) Things don't happen! (frowns) I mean ... they don't
*just* happen. (Shot of Tara looking concerned) Somebody... (shot of Willow) I mean, somebody's
got...
WILLOW: Okay. (puts up her fists) Let's go. Come on, you and me. Come on.
Xander stares at her, then sighs. He walks over to her, kisses her on the forehead. Tara watches
sadly.
XANDER: You know I can't take you.
WILLOW: Damn straight.
That Willow is too damned cute and adorable! And I agree with you about the Willow/Xander
relationship. I miss their friendly, playful interactions.
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[> Re: "The Body," revisited (Spoilers) -- Cactus Watcher, 09:14:01 12/19/01 Wed
No doubt someone mentioned it last year before I found this board, but my favorite aspect of The
Body is the way it shows a virtual catalog of things the living do; vomiting, going to the bathroom,
laughing, shouting, bleeding, eating, crying, worrying, sympathizing, daydreaming, hoping, flirting,
being confused, being embarassed, becoming angry, etc. None of these things was a part of Buffy's
heaven. All of them must weigh heavily on her now.
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[> [> Re: "The Body," revisited (Spoilers) -- DEN, 09:34:49 12/19/01 Wed
Oh, NICE, CW!
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[> [> "The Heart"...spoilers from "WOTW","OMWF" and
possibly the future... -- AurraSing, 10:06:35 12/19/01 Wed
I find your comments about BTVS having "little heart" lately an affirmation of
something I have felt about the show since "Weight of the World",namely that it was in
that episode that Buffy gave up,lost her spirit,lost her heart.(But not in the romantic sense of the
word at all)Faced with what seemed like an unbeatable foe in the form of Glory,Buffy succumbed to
her fear and gave up the will to battle on.And while she did go on to defeat the Bimbo goddess,it was
a price probably far too high for even our heroine to ever bear.
I too think season 6 seems lacking.Not that I am really complaining,I am just pointing out that Buffy
now appears to lack her driving spirit,her unquenchable attitude,the Slayer attitude that has carried
her so far against so many forms of evil.Yeah,Buffy has lost her heart. And as Buffy goes,so goes the
show,or at least that has always been the way I have perceived BTVS.
The burning question is,how does Buffy go about getting her heart back? I realise she still feels love
for Dawn and the Scoobies but after facing mortal peril and paying with her life,what will it take to
bring back some spark of the Buffy we all love??
I'm reluctant to go on the record as saying Buffy came back with no soul.I myself have a hard time
defining the "soul" despite many years of Catholic school and I've seen enough evidence
of humanity's injustice to itself to doubt such a thing really exists.I do feel however,that within every
living creature there is a vital spark that makes that creature "alive" and when we lose it
we lose our will to live,which is one of the reasons that Buffy feels herself "going through the
motions" and yet not really feeling alive at all.Even animals will turn their faces to the wall
and pine away if they lose that spark....so what worries me is that Buffy really needs to find her
heart before that moment of turning away happens.
I don't offer a solution to what ails Buffy.I think Joss has a plan (doesn't he always?!) but the path to
her heart looks rather rocky.I do think Buffy needs to find real love again before she can heal.What
form that love will take is still up in the air-will it be Spike?? That would be the ultimate irony of
ironies since their history has been so turbulant and he still is evil,or at least he claims to be to
anyone who will listen.Obviously she came back from that meeting with Angel off-screen still lacking
her "heart",so Angel is most likely out.What is a heart-sick Slayer to do?
Any ideas out there??
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[> [> [> Love isn't enough. -- Traveler, 12:17:36 12/19/01 Wed
"I do think Buffy needs to find real love again before she can heal.What form that love will
take is still up in the air-will it be Spike?"
Love certainly has helped Buffy come this far. Dawn prevented her from committing suicide on the
tower, and Spike has shaken her up and at least gotten her to feel something. However, I think that
ultimately Buffy will have to find happiness from within, not from some external source. Her friends,
family, and lover(s) can help her on that path, but she is the one who ultimately must take it.
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[> [> [> [> Perhaps self love?? -- AurraSing, 12:31:30 12/19/01 Wed
The way Buffy looks this season is radically different from past seasons-darker,unhappy.I think that
when she looks into a mirror she does not see a lot that she likes-perhaps she needs to learn to love
herself again? Is she cold with her friends and unpleasant to Spike because she hates herself and is
trying to push them further away ?
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Perhaps self love?? -- Shaglio, 12:55:32 12/19/01 Wed
"The way Buffy looks this season is radically different from past seasons-
darker,unhappy."
I couldn't agree more. In Tabula Rasa, when she uttered the line, "I don't know, but it was
cooool!" I noticed she looked a lot younger with a smile on her face and a glint in her eyes. It
wasn't until then that I realized how old and haggard she was starting to look. Buffy is supposed to
be 20/21, but she was looking more like 40 lately (not gray hair and wrinkles, but in her facial
expressions). Maybe it's her harrowing job as the slayer, her mother's death, or most likely her own
death that has been "hardening" her internally and externally. She acts much more
mature than I do and I'm 27! When I was her age I was still footloose and fancy free. I guess the
Weight Of The World has been taking it's toll on her once youthful facade.
P.S. I hope I didn't offand any 40+ posters on the board.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Young or old? -- pagangodess, 16:54:55 12/19/01 Wed
I agree with you that Buffy has been looked really old, but only in the begining of the season. I
noticed the girly braids, the childish comments ('maybe he doesn't eat them, maybe he just thinks
they are... pretty'), and especially in 'Smashed', when she's at the museum jumping up and down
trying to see over the crowd. I'm not sure exactly when this change took place or whether or not it
will continue ( I think it was shortly after OMWF, but I can't be sure).
take it and run
pagan
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[> [> [> [> [> I want the laughter back... -- Moose, 13:07:22 12/19/01 Wed
I miss the laughter as she mocks the pumped up, self-important evils that think they can destroy her
and the world. Buffy looks them straight in the face and laughs at them. The killing's almost been
secondary.
It reminds me of a quote from the Thomas Covenant series by Stephen Donaldson, where
Foamfollower the Giant says something like, "Laugh, Covenant. You've told us the end of all
things. Now laugh."
Laugh, Buffy. You've been to hell and heaven and back again. Now laugh...
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Perhaps self love?? -- Deeva, 13:15:39 12/19/01 Wed
I'm not sure that Buffy hates herself more than she doesn't know how to proceed with living after
having been in "heaven". Being pulled back by her friends would probably make her
wonder if she were to proceed living, would she still end up in heaven? Would it all still mean the
same? Was this meant to happen? "I'm supposed to physically die, experience heaven and then
come back?" Buffy can't comprehend why this happens. All the trivial things fall away. In
Afterlife she really did mean it when she said that she could be alone with Spike. She didn't mean
that he was "nobody", she meant that even though she was confiding in him, Buffy still
feels all alone in this world. No one else can completely relate to her because of her experiences.
She's not exactly pushing the Scobbies all away, she's just awkward around them.
Having common experiences often is the starting point to many friendships/relationships and
drifting away when those experiences no longer apply is common. Spike's advice in OMwF, to just
keep living cause life is just this, or something to that affect, is pretty much dead on. Buffy wants a
"how, where, why, when"-type answer to dealing with her turmoil. Spike’s basically
saying that it’s not that easy and the best thing you can do is just take the moments as they
come.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> How about a prescription for Prozac? -- Spike Lover, 17:52:31
12/21/01 Fri
Top 10 reasons Buffy needs Prozac:
10. One of her most recent memories is jumping off a scaffold to her death.
9. She has recently lost her mother.
8. Her dad is a deadbeat who has not even shown up since her mom died.
7. She has no job, no prospects for a job, and somehow she has to find a way to support herself and
her sister.
6. She is somehow responsible for raising and providing for her sister who is turning out to be wild.
She knows that if she can not get her sister to tow the line, Dawn could either be endangered or be
taken away by the State.
5. She has a history of depression, specifically when she was battling the hellgod "Glory".
She also feels burdened by having to "save" the world or her friends constantly.
4. Her Watcher, a very real source of support, has just moved away "for her own
good".
3. Her friends are distant: X & A are engaged (which changes things, Angel is in LA, and Willow
is out with her new friend "Amy" and doing magic.
2. The one solid guy she can count on for help or emotional support is pressuring her to
"date" him when she may not be emotionally ready or even want to. (Okay, this one is
weak.)
1. She has found that the great future that she had planned for herself earlier in life is completely
not happening.
(I know #1 is supposed to be the best, so replace it with your own if you like.) By the way, any one of
these is reason enough to be on prozac. So she really qualifies!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: How about a prescription for Prozac? -- Brian, 04:35:05
12/22/01 Sat
My #1:
Having been to Heaven, Life back on earth really sucks!
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[> Re: "The Body," revisited (Spoilers) -- Smash, 11:16:06 12/19/01 Wed
Oy, Darby, I'm so glad you started this thread!
REAL LIFE BLATHER:
I swore that I'd not watch "The Body" last night because I feared it would be just too sad.
The last three months have been hard for so many of us -- compounded by the death of my
grandmother days before Thanksgiving and personal reluctance to celebrate anybody's holidays --
and frankly, I'm tired of being sad.
Somehow, I was unable to *not* watch last night. I kept thinking of one critic's comments after the
original airing of "The Body." I apologize that I can't remember specifically who it was,
but he harshly criticized Joss for what he said was exploiting his own mother's death in a weak
attempt to get an Emmy. (The critic's mother had also died when he was younger, and he felt that
Buffy's experience was not realistic.)
While watching, I kept waiting for resentful feelings similar to those of the critic to surface. They
never did.
The episode was *more* poignant to me because of my real life experiences. Buffy's reaction -- from
calling 911 right up to hugging Giles -- are right on. That critic was just a bitter slag who should
know better than to write on a topic when it's too personal. Er, in my opinion.
OBSERVATIONS ABOUT THE SHOW:
Here's what I love about JW's style of direction: he's the master of understatement. I love the single-
tear-streaming-down-the-cheek look of utter dispair, the absence of a soundtrack, and
"Where'd she go?"
I loved the cinematography, if you can call it that in television. The shot of the EMT from Buffy's
POV when he was explaining how Joyce died was brilliant. I loved that Joss wasn't afraid to give us
silent long shots -- Tara's face looking sadly on as Willow freaks out; a pasty, sweaty, post-puke
Buffy; Dawn staring at Joyce in the morgue; and, of course, Joyce. Joss used the camera to let us
know as reality set in with each character one by one. The first long, silent, still shot being of Joyce's
body because presumably she was the first to grasp the reality of her own death.
I hope that all of the other writers and directors can employ the same severe show-don't-tell style
occassionally, especially as we learn how Buffy will deal with being back from the dead.
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[> [> Re: "The Body," revisited (Spoilers) -- nay, 12:14:43 12/19/01 Wed
In addition to what you pointed out I loved the way JW showed each characters reaction to Joyce's
death. They each exibited a different level of grief, anger, fustration, denial, confusion and
acceptance. I loved that Dawn (a character who has been questioning her own reality) was the one
who was in total denial until she could visualy see Joyce did it become real to her.
As an aside note I felt a character was missing. I would have been interested in seeing how Spike
had handled her death. Especially since it always seemed like he had a kind of underlining sutle
mother/son relationship with her. How would he have handled it?
~nay who cried just as much last night as I did the first time I viewed 'The Body'.
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[> [> [> Something I forgot to include above. -- nay, 12:19:44 12/19/01 Wed
Another thing I loved was that JW showed that the world (life)around them was continuing on. I
mean the kids were going to classes, the cop ticketed Xander's car, the EMT's were called to another
emergancy and so on. To me this episode was real.
~nay
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[> [> [> We found out Spike's reaction in "Forever." -- Rob, 12:31:09 12/19/01
Wed
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[> [> [> Re: "The Body," revisited (Spoilers) -- Shaglio, 13:03:26 12/19/01
Wed
"I would have been interested in seeing how Spike had handled her death."
Agreed. Just 2 episodes earlier (Crush) Buffy came home to find him sitting on the counter in the
kitchen with Joyce and Dawn talking about bills of lading and Joyce's art museum. And they
certainly had a bonding moment when Joyce and Dawn had to hide in his crypt and he and Joyce
started talking about Passions.
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[> [> [> [> spike (spoilers, i think) -- Apophis, 13:40:29 12/19/01 Wed
The reason Spike wasn't shown was because it would have lessened the episode's realism. The Body
was not about saving the world, it was about a group of people on the day a loved one died. Spike,
being a 120 year old vampire with an inhibitor chip in his brain, was one of the show's more fantastic
elements and therefore wasn't included.
Before anyone yells at me (this is my first post, btw), I know there was a vampire at the end. This
vampire, however, was not a charismatic villain, dressed in stylish leather; he was naked, mindless,
and quite obviously a walking corpse. He represented the fact that, no matter what was going on in
her life, Buffy's paranormal responsibilities wouldn't let her rest.
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[> [> [> Re: "The Body," revisited (Spoilers) -- anom, 21:59:25 12/19/01
Wed
"I would have been interested in seeing how Spike had handled her death."
Me too. We don't even get to see how he finds out. But Apophis and/or Shaglio (not gonna go back
& check!) makes a good point--it would've undermined the reality of the episode. Besides, at
that point (btwn. Crush & Intervention), Spike wasn't part of the core group & in fact had
been firmly rejected by it. (But I'd still like to know.)
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[> [> Re: "The Body," revisited (Spoilers) -- anom, 21:49:35 12/19/01 Wed
"I swore that I'd not watch "The Body" last night because I feared it would be just
too sad. The last three months have been hard for so many of us -- compounded by the death of my
grandmother days before Thanksgiving and personal reluctance to celebrate anybody's holidays --
and frankly, I'm tired of being sad."
God, Smash, I can identify way too much. My mother died a couple of weeks before Buffy's mother
died in the show--after it looked like Joyce would be OK (which I half-resented because why couldn't
my mom have been OK?). The circumstances were very different, but as Tara said, it's always
sudden, even when it isn't.
I thought the episode was entirely realistic. As Tara also said, it's different for everyone. But the
reactions, the not knowing what to do even though you're normally a capable person, the narrowing
of focus so people (like the EMT) who are telling you important things become peripheral, the
reflexive politeness as you go on autopilot (talk about "going through the motions"!),
running through what you could have done/how it could have been different in your mind...and the
sheer incomprehensibility of it all. Those were so real.
And, nay? Yeah, I cried too. Every time I've seen it. And even more at the end of Forever, when Buffy
finally breaks down.
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[> Re: "The Body," revisited (Spoilers) -- Traveler, 12:12:00 12/19/01 Wed
It was the same way for me. I enjoyed this episode even more the second time around than I did the
first. "Remarkably well done" doesn't even begin to cover it.
Good observation about Willow's clothes; I hadn't made that connection.
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[> Re: "The Body," revisited (Spoilers) -- Sophie, 13:43:36 12/19/01 Wed
Interesting that you mention Will's change in wardrobe. I watched both FX eps last night and then
"The Body", and then re-watched "OMwF" on video tape, and Will's clothing
change is dramatic and jumped out at me.
I had noticed that this season, Will's clothes are very mature (rather sexy), but I had not realized
that the change had occurred since "The Body".
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[> Re: "The Body," revisited (Spoilers) -- Sophie, 13:47:46 12/19/01 Wed
Interesting that you mention Will's change in wardrobe. I watched both FX eps last night and then
"The Body", and then re-watched "OMwF" on video tape, and Will's clothing
change is dramatic and jumped out at me.
I had noticed that this season, Will's clothes are very mature (rather sexy), but I had not realized
that the change had occurred since "The Body".
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[> Re: "The Body," revisited (Spoilers) -- JBone, 20:36:14 12/19/01 Wed
Xander really is the heart of the show, which currently has very little heart...
I suspect that Buffy's "resurrection", if/when it's complete, will be done because of many
guffaws, and snot laughter. Something that Willow and Spike are not providing. Basically, I think
that Xander or Dawn (and probably Anya) will have a lot to do with Buffy feeling like she belongs
again. To me, it's a matter of balance. We've had some excellent funny with Tabula Rasa, but other
than that, all the funny has come from the otherworldly nerdy threesome.
I'm probably going off into no man's land on this one (again), but I really believe that Buffy's earthly
salvation will not come from Spike or Willow or whatever else. I see it coming from Xander. And in
absence of Xander, Anya. Don't forget that bachelorette party comment. God, I hope they air
"that" comedy. But last year (season 5), whenever Buffy had a heart to heart with
someone, it was with either Giles or Xander. Not Spike or Willow. And I realize that Spike has been
the only one that Buffy can connect with so far this year, but is she the better for it?
I don't expect to get the same ole Buff back, but hopefully, a Buffy who is happy to be Buffy. As for
Tara, she'll have her priorities (and rightly so) with Willow.
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[> Re: "The Body," revisited (Spoilers) -- Simon A., 03:59:04 12/20/01 Thu
As I watched it I was reminded again of the "Doll's Eyes" episode of the show Homicide,
which was the saddest thing that I have ever seen on television. Both episodes really capture for me
the sense of shock of people who are forced to cope with the physicality of death before they have a
chance to confront the reality. Both show that in the hands of good actors and good directors, silence
can be as effective as speech or crying. They do, however come down on different sides of the parking
issue.
I liked the glimpse that one had into Dawn's life outside the house. I don't want to see more of it, but
I think that they showed enough to extablish that she has a life that exists beyond hanging with the
SG, even if that is what the show is about and therefore all that we see.
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[> Re: "The Body," revisited (Spoilers) -- maddog, 09:53:30 12/20/01 Thu
I agree with your assessment of Anya, this was definitely one of her better episodes. She's just so
human for the first time...finally getting frustrated enough to cry over not understanding how to
react.
Firefly -- Sebastian, 12:09:19 12/19/01 Wed
I'm not sure if this info has been posted here, but Fox has given a 13-ep commitment to a new sci-fi
drama series called Firefly from Joss.
The show is set about 500 years into the future amid the newly formed Union of Planets where a
crew aboard a transport spaceship (Firefly class) who are basically renegades for hire. Firefly is the
first show Fox has committed to for next fall.
Its been posted in the media trades so.....
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[> Re: Firefly -- Rob, 12:30:05 12/19/01 Wed
Yes, I've just heard about it today...and I can't wait!
Rob
P.S. It is called "Firefly" because of the way the spaceship's posterior lights up when they
go to warp speed.
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[> [> Re: Firefly -- Dedalus, 13:41:48 12/19/01 Wed
I just heard about this!
I have long wondered what Joss has in store for us in a post-Buffy sense, and here we go. I love the
idea about the guy being like a Confederate who fought on the side that lost and now hates everyone.
I'm sure it will be like no sci-fi show we have ever seen.
It's all over the place - at Cinescape, Yahoo, and AICN.
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[> [> [> Re: Firefly -- Rattletrap, 14:41:07 12/19/01 Wed
Good news indeed.
The way you describe it, Ded, it sounds like a sci-fi version of The Outlaw Josey Wales or something,
is that about right?
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[> [> [> [> Re: Firefly -- Andy, 18:59:45 12/19/01 Wed
That's an interesting way of looking at it, actually, and since I love The Outlaw Josey Wales I can
only hope it turns out something like that :) Joss also said that it would be a sci-fi series without any
aliens in it, just humans, and would be an "anti-Star Trek". That last part kind of
reminds me of Farscape.
I'm looking forward to seeing the show but I have to admit that Joss will have to work hard to get me
as a viewer since I have trouble maintaining interest in that genre (as impressive as Farscape is it
still falls just shy of being mandatory tv for me).
Andy
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Firefly -- anom, 21:03:51 12/19/01 Wed
"Joss also said that it would be a sci-fi series without any aliens in it, just
humans,..."
I kinda like that. For one thing, it looks like the chances of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe
are much lower than had been thought before. For another, the limitations of TV w/live actors, even
w/computer imaging, severely restrict how aliens can be portrayed (& I would bet that if there
are other intelligent species out there, they're not humanoid & may not resemble any form of
life we're familiar with). A few shows, like Babylon 5, have done some very good things within those
limitations, but still. For yet another thing, intelligent life that evolved elsewhere would probably
have mindsets mutually incomprehensible w/ours, making communication at more than the most
basic level nearly impossible. ("Universal translators"? Please.)
An sf show w/no aliens would also avoid the whole Star Trek problem of 1 civilization per planet--or
if there are 2, they're at war. But everybody in each population is basically the same, because, you
know, that's what those people--er, beings--are like.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Firefly -- grifter, 01:30:53 12/20/01 Thu
I usually can´t stand TV-scifi (except for Babylon 5), but since Joss is doing it...hey, it´s gotta be cool
;)
Anyone know where one could obtain information about it?
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Humanoid Life (OT) -- Darby, 12:38:11 12/20/01 Thu
You might be surprised at how likely humanoid life is...
Given life developing in some sort of water environment (not absolutely necessary, but it's hard to
get the chemistry to work in the atmosphere of a gas giant, and other possible liquids don't dissolve
things well enough). You also need lots of energy input for high-level biological organization,
probably sunlight on an Earth-like planet...
Given that movable life forms - animals - that have a preferred direction evolve a front end with
most of the senses and processors there, and a bilaterally symmetrical form behind it (animals that
don't do this shouldn't develop the central processors necessary for intelligence), you've got a head
and matched limbs...
Given that living in water is unlikely to lead to what we consider intelligence in a science fiction
universe - technology, manipulation of tools. You could make a case for cephalopods (octopus, etc.),
but there probably are limitations to what sort of advanced technology could be derived in a salt-
water environment. Electricity as we know it is right out. Look at whales - we want them to be
intelligent, but they barely qualify as science-fiction "sentient life" (and there are better
explanations for their brain size than smarts). So we need land animals, and they need...
Given that our land animals need legs. How many legs? It seems like more legs could bear more
weight, but what you actually see in history is a reduction in leg numbers in groups like insects and
spiders (whose construction limits their size and, unless you're going for a hive-mind, their
intelligence levels too). Is four a good number? That's the most unpredictable aspect - our fishy
ancestors had four, pretty much across the board, but I don't know why that would be a functional
preference rather than luck-of-the-draw. Eventually, our intelligent types need to get at least one set
of legs free of weight-bearing responsibility - this leads to the manipulation abilities that, in humans,
led to vast development of our brain abilities after birth (being carried reduced sensory and
coordination needs in infants), as well as our being able to carry tools around, which put a premium
on design efficiency and durability, as well as communication - although our communication
probably had more social underpinnings than technological ones (social organization, though, seems
like another "must have" in our evolving thinkers). Our likely candidates would have
internal skeletons (greater size possible) and jointed legs, a trait which shows up in wildly different
groups as a natural answer to the challenge of moving quickly around on land. You could make a
guess about joint number and limb placement that would probably get you something similar to
what you find around us.
What's on a land animal's head? The pertinent senses from way back are sight, preferentially in a
flat facial plane to facilitate depth perception; hearing, with binocular detectors well separated to
localize sound (that could be located someplace other than the head, though), taste somewhere near
the mouth, which would be on the head, and probably smell (a powerful component of taste) in the
vicinity. Neither of these last two is too well served with bilateral structures, so something central is
likely. The really complex level of communication skill you'd need would probably be at least
somewhat sound-based, although visual (as in squid skin-pattern shifting) is possible, and you could
go with telepathic although it's hard to support it from a physics standpoint (sort of - you can support
pretty much anything if you dig far enough into quantum mechanics, though).
What do we get? Something at least partly upright, with jointed limbs matched right-to-left, some
sort of grasping/manipulating hands and a head probably moved more above than in front. A couple
of eyes (single lens, which is a better system than multiple if you've got the room), a mouth, some
sort of nose, possibly ears. Humanoid? Maybe. If velociraptors had had a chance to keep evolving,
would intelligent descendants be humanoid? Depends on how you define it.
Should intelligent, technological aliens be "Star Trek" humanoid? Not without some
religious implications, I would think. Could they be humanoid within a modern TV budget?
Definitely.
Whew! That was more than a bit off-topic, wasn't it? I don't get to flex my evolutionary biology
training very often, and it's obviously not a great idea to get me started...
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: That was quite interesting Darby :-) -- Dedalus, 18:27:39
12/20/01 Thu
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Humanoid Life (OT) -- anom, 00:00:24 12/21/01 Fri
"I don't get to flex my evolutionary biology training very often, and it's obviously not a great
idea to get me started..."
On the contrary, Darby, I'm glad I opened my big mouth (or whatever the keyboard equivalent is)
& got educated. Still, I notice a lot of qualifiers in that explanation...there may be alternative
arrangements that aren't often thought of.
"Could they be humanoid within a modern TV budget? Definitely."
Oh, of course. I was saying the opposite: it'd be harder/cost more to portray nonhumanoids credibly.
Within the usual suspension of disbelief, that is.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Humanoid Life (OT) - Background -- Darby,
07:36:18 12/21/01 Fri
You're right, LOTS of qualifiers.
What really got me thinking about it was the widespread portrayal of aliens - in fiction and in the
"fact" of UFO mythology - as shaped like us. My first reaction was, "That's
ridiculous - why would a totally alien evolutionary track produce anything CLOSE to
us??"
It might not, of course, since evolution is a crap shoot, but there are certain broad requirements for
high-level intelligence and for technological potential (don't get me started on mineral conditions of
the planet) that don't inevitably lead to humanoid shapes, but increase the odds immensely.
I still don't believe that humanoid space aliens are kidnapping people from the hills of Kentucky and
using them for bizarre sexual experiments, but it's not that far-fetched that such creatures might be
superficially similar to us, like a shark / tuna / dolphin / ichthyosaur are similar due to the
constraints of their spots in their ecosystems.
I think that I agree with you - I like my aliens really ALIEN. One problem you run into with
VISUAL presentation, though, is the tendency to look "fake" no matter how well it's done
- if there's no frame of reference, it won't seem real. On top of that, although I've enjoyed the
Discovery Channel's "Walking With" series (although the "stories" often
make no sense from an adaptive standpoint), and was on the "hated Jar Jar" bandwagon,
the technology to make them look REAL isn't quite there yet...
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Humanoid Life (OT) - Background -- anom,
15:48:11 12/23/01 Sun
"...(don't get me started on mineral conditions of the planet)...."
Well, I kinda gave you the opening already, in a very general way, with the comment that a lot fewer
planets were likely to be able to support life than previously thought. But you don't hafta get started-
-Scientific American has covered it in its December 2001 issue. The cover story, billed on the cover as
"Beyond the Zone" but titled "Refuges for Life in a Hostile Universe," is
about evidence that only a narrow band of space within each galaxy is a "habitable zone,"
w/stars that can have planets that can support life. And one of the major reasons is the amount of
minerals available to be incorporated into planets. Unfortunately, this article isn't on the sciam.com
website. But, to go slightly O/T, there is one--I guess it's actually a column--claiming that "Any
sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God."...if anyone's
interested.
Now that could start a whole other discussion....
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[> In addition to that (BtVS info),,,,, -- Sebastian, 12:31:58 12/19/01 Wed
btvs was nominated for an american film institute award as best drama.
afi's will air on cbs 1/5/02.
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[> [> No doubt... -- GreatRewards, 13:28:54 12/19/01 Wed
West Wing will win the award, in light of the surge of patriotism following the Sept. 11th
tragedy.
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[> Yeah, but is Joss overextended? -- darrenK, 08:03:05 12/20/01 Thu
The show sounds great and I'm always interested in a new Joss show, but this is going to be Joss'
fifth show.
This is an especially worrisome fact considering that 2, maybe 3, of these 5 shows are set to premier
in 2002-2003.
Firefly is going to take a lot of time and effort since it's a whole new world with no set characters or
pool of writers who know this world.
It's also the first show produced under Joss' new deal with Fox, which means that there will be a lot
of pressure for it to succeed right away.
This means that much less of his time will be spent on Buffy, either writing, directing, or even
rewriting.
If you read the transcript of Jane Espensen talking about Earshot (posted 2 weeks ago), then you
probably know how important Joss' rewriting can be.
It's especially troublesome since Joss' Buffy episodes are not only the best episodes, but also
important season linchpins.
As Buffy hits season 7, when it's contract with UPN runs up and SMG's contract runs up, it would be
terrible for it suddenly be without Joss' guiding hand.
I thought he was overextended before Firefly, now I don't know what to think.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Agreed, dK ... -- squireboy, 13:23:57 12/20/01 Thu
My feeling is also that Joss is already overextended, from my selfish perspective of wanting BtVS
being as rich and coherent as possible. Joss seems to be withdrawing gradually from BtVS, with all
his other irons in the fire, and I guess if one has serious Mogul ambitions, one has to follow
opportunities as they present. The other side of that coin is that as the Creator and driving force of a
project like Buffy, one only has one chance to do it as well as possible. I've read about enough regrets
from creative folks around the obstacles to getting the vision on the screen without being their own
obstacle, but hey, it's his call, I'm just a nobody sitting in an office, typing about Joss' creation.
One other thing intrigued me that you said: everyone I talk to seems to assume that BtVS will be
over at the end of next season as the possibility of getting SMG under contract again will probably
bear a striking resemblance to zero. You implied that there might be a future beyond S7. Care to
elaborate? (he said hopefully ...)
squireboy
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[> [> [> Just my opinion... -- darrenK, 15:52:08 12/20/01 Thu
Yeah, the fact that SMG's and UPN's contracts are both up at the end of next year is not encouraging
for those of us who want the show to continue.
But, SMG seems to be damn shrewd when it comes to her career. And she knows that Buffy fans are
her fans. Does she want to be the reason that the show is cancelled? I doubt it.
She knows that by leaving the show before the writers and Joss want to end it, she'd alienate the
fans, her fans.
And more importantly, Buffy gives her far more exposure than she'd probably get if she was just
doing movies. We've seen the parts she gets and Scooby Doo and Cruel Intentions are not going to
put her on the cover of Entertainment Weekly or Rolling Stone. Buffy does. Buffy also gives her a
hipness factor that she's going to lose completely if she's just the Queen of Teen film. Paging Neve
Campbell?Has anyone seen Neve Campbell?
Then there's the FOX factor. Buffy is a cash cow. Its audience might be small in the US compared to
Friends, but Buffy is rapidly becoming a worldwide phenomenon. And it generates huge revenue
through syndication and merchandising.
And the show seems to be getting more popular and getting even more critical acclaim. It's clearly a
show still on the rise. Is Fox going to let this cash cow die just because SMG might want a B movie
career? No, they're going to do everything necessary to encourage Joss to keep making it.
Now there's the UPN factor. The UPN is still a netlet with growing pains. It had NO shows that
appealed to women and no Tuesday night whatsoever. Suddenly they've bought a strong Tuesday
lead-in that gets them huge top 20 level press in major publications and a rabid built-in fan base
that will love the UPN for supporting the show that they love and hate the UPN if they don't renew
the Buffy contract. I think the UPN will beg to buy 2 years of Buffy after the current contract.
And if they don't? Well, then Fox might just do the cost-effective thing and move it to their own
network, which could use a show that generates huge press and loyal fans.
And ,of course, there's Marti and the other writers. Joss has spent years cultivating them, getting
them to a point where the "Buffy writers" aren't just a bunch of freelancers desperate to
be writing on the Simpsons. But instead, a group of committed creators whose work is as well known
as his own. He's there. We debate the work of Jane Espenson or David Fury or Doug Petrie, not like
they're Hollywood professionals who's agent managed to score them a gig on the flavor of the week,
but almost like a special priesthood of Buffy, who seem to be as committed to as we are. I think they
are.
Now that he's got them, is he just going to let them go? I doubt it. And Marti is now the showrunner.
She's 6 months into it and this is a huge career step for her. Is she really going to want Buffy and her
big opportunity to end?
Then there's Joss. Buffy is his flagship. It made his reputation. No matter how busy he is, or how
many opportunities appear, he can't just let it fade away. It has to end HUGELY, with triumph. I
think his ego will insist on 9 or 10 seasons.
Then, there's the plot. The most important thing. They haven't been setting up an end to the series,
they've been gathering elements for it's continuation. When they killed off Joyce, they killed off
Buffy's girlhood. And they made Buffy a responsible adult with a girl shaped KEY to look after.
All that set-up to make Buffy a weighed down adult, then skip the weighed down adult part? I doubt
it.
Finally, I think they're going to telegraph the fact that the show is ending at least a year in advance
just to prepare the aforementioned rabid audience.
You have to. You wouldn't want us to start hurling rotten tomatoes? Or tearing down UPN affiliates
with our bare hands, right?
dK
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[> [> [> [> Good points all -- squireboy, 22:29:44 12/20/01 Thu
I hope you are right, sincerely. I'd like to think that SMG could see the sense in the business/career
advice you proffered, but actors are funny and sometimes their advisors are giving them different,
not so good advice. More movies = less work, similar money, *if* the parts are out there, and as you
point out, the show gives her both prominence, and limits her availability, thereby generating an
appetite for roles for her.
Still, I will cultivate a little spark of hope for seasons beyond S7 where previously there was none.
:)
Cheers,
squireboy
OT: Go see The Fellowship of the Ring -- verdantheart, 13:47:14 12/19/01 Wed
Wow!
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[> Re: OT: Okay. -- GreatRewards, 14:49:30 12/19/01 Wed
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[> Agreed! NT -- Annie, 15:58:57 12/19/01 Wed
No text here. Go see the movie!
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[> Just got back -- Traveler, 16:46:07 12/19/01 Wed
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[> Why are you still sittingthere?! Go see Lord of the Rings NOW!!! -- vampire hunter D, 21:39:45
12/19/01 Wed
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[> I will on Friday...patience is a virtue after all... -- grifter, 01:26:29 12/20/01 Thu
...and it's driving me nuts I didn't order my tickets earlier...;(
How would Willow be at Quidditch? -- Dedalus, 13:51:10 12/19/01 Wed
I tried to post this a few days ago, but the board refused to cooperate.
Several things crossed my mind as I became a newly-made Potterhead. One was that the Sorcerer's
Stone certainly was the Star Wars of this generation. Which is kinda cool. For one, they went out
and found their own myth, and for another, they're reading very long books. But it really is SW.
Harry is Luke, the supernaturally gifted youngster who thinks he's something other than what he is.
Ron is Han Solo, all pluck and luck. Hermoine is a perfect Leia, who is so haughty but manages to be
adorable nonetheless. Hagrid is big and wooly and loyal, kinda like Chewbacca. Dumbledore is your
wise old man Obi-Wan archetype. Voldermort is a hybrid between Vader and the Emperor. The
Dursley's were like Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru (It would have been funny if ANH started with Luke
locked up in a cellar on Tatooine). Wizard's Chess was like the holographic chess R2 and Chewie
played on the Falcon. Devil's Snare was like the garbage compactor. I swear during the movie I could
hear Bill Moyers exclaiming "That's the belly of the whale Joe Campbell always talked
about!" Diagon Alley was kinda like the cantina. And of course Quidditch was like pod
racing.
Which brings us back to Buffy. The other thing I was thinking was wondering how Willow would be
at Quidditch, and Tara, too, of course. Will would probably get addicted to flying broomsticks or
something at this stage of the game, and she didn't do too well driving under the influence in
Wrecked, but I could see her doing half-way decent. Tara doesn't seem to physical, and I see her
falling off her broomstick a lot. Actually, Buffy would probably be the best. She is the most physical,
and her Slayer power is magical in origin. Thus, she's not just another Muggle.
Any other thoughts on this? Quidditch, Scooby-style?
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[> Re: How would Willow be at Quidditch? -- maddog, 09:46:48 12/20/01 Thu
I'd have to say they'd both do very well in an environment like Hogwart's. Willow always did thrive
in an academic environment. And I'd even go so far as to say that with a controled environment like
that she probably wouldn't have had the addiction...well, ok, maybe she would have, but I see the
friendly and teaching environment like Hogwarts as something that would keep her grounded. As for
Quidditch, she's a very quick learner...maybe even someone at Harry's pace. So I'll bet she'd be real
good.
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[> [> Re: Good thoughts all the way around :-) -- Dedalus, 18:24:11 12/20/01 Thu
Does "heaven" represent childhood? --
Jenq, 14:04:25 12/19/01 Wed
You may have discussed or poo-poo'ed this idea already, but here goes:
Since JW has said that the theme of this season is "Grow up," is it possible that Buffy's
stay in heaven (where it was warm and she felt loved and complete) could represent childhood?
Barring a trauma-filled childhood, I think that the idea of "warm, loved and complete"
could easily convey that sense of being protected, nourished, and secure that can come from early
childhood. No thought about tomorrow or yesterday. No responsibilities. You just know that
everything and everyone will be okay. ( I know that this isn't everyone's experience with childhood,
but I think it makes sense here).
The trip through adolescence, then, is when the world seems bright and harsh. You've got too many
things to think about--responsibilities, other people, the world. How to find your place and what you
believe? It's easier to just shut down most of the time. Apathetic rebellion. Lots of anger, especially
at those closest to you.
Just a thought. Forgive me it I've brought up something lame.
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[> Re: Does "heaven" represent childhood? -- Copper, 14:26:18 12/19/01 Wed
Or what we are seeing is the birth process. Heaven was the womb and Buffy was
"reborn". Birth is probably a traumatic experience for most babies born in a hospital
environment: bright lights, noise, too harsh.
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[> [> Re: Does "heaven" represent childhood? -- SugarTherapy, 15:50:54 12/19/01
Wed
OK, I suddenly wanna have my future children at home... Think how horrible that would be? Have
you ever walked into really bright sunlight? Y'know how disorienting it is? Wouldn't birth be bad
enough without all that and all the people and the noise... yuck.
Sugar
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> I had the same thought. -- Traveler, 18:31:05 12/19/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> From Afterlife....... -- Rufus, 22:40:03 12/19/01 Wed
I don't see that your analogy of childhood to heaven in regards to Buffy are too far off....from
Psyche....
SPIKE: (walks back to her) Buffy, if you're in ... if you're in pain ... or if you need anything... or if I
can do anything for you...
BUFFY: (looks down at her lap) You can't.
SPIKE: Well, I haven't been to a hell dimension just of late, but I do know a thing or two about
torment.
He sits beside her.
BUFFY: (still looking down) I was happy.
Spike looks at her in confusion.
BUFFY: Wherever I ... was ... I was happy. At peace.
Spike stares, shocked.
BUFFY: I knew that everyone I cared about was all right. I knew it. Time ... didn't mean anything ...
nothing had form ... but I was still me, you know? (glances at him, then away) And I was warm ...
and I was loved ... and I was finished. Complete. I don't understand about theology or dimensions, or
... any of it, really ... but I think I was in heaven.
Spike continues to stare at her in dismay.
BUFFY: And now I'm not. (almost tearful) I was torn out of there. Pulled out ... by my friends. (Spike
continues staring, listening) Everything here is ... hard, and bright, and violent. Everything I feel,
everything I touch ... this is Hell. Just getting through the next moment, and the one after that ...
(softly) knowing what I've lost...
She looks up, realizes Spike is still there. She looks uncomfortable, gets up.
She walks just to the line where the shadows become sunlight, and pauses, but doesn't turn back to
face Spike.
BUFFY: They can never know. Never.
She still doesn't look back at him, just continues walking into the sunlight.
Blackout.
Even though I miss Giles I can see that his leaving was a way of shocking Buffy back into this world
instead of wandering around like a depressed Buffybot. Nothing makes one miss childhood more
than being an adult. Taxes, bills, relationships, responsibility.....all combine to make everyone, even
if for only brief moments miss the security, warmth, and simplicity of childhood. Buffy remaining
like a child in her inability to reconnect with Dawn or get on with life is like wanting to stay in a
state as close to heaven as she can get. Too bad that her parental figures are gone or dead and her
friends are getting on with their lives.
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[> [> maybe halfway... -- anom, 19:47:14 12/25/01 Tue
Childhood? Happy, yes, ideally. Peaceful...I dunno. I'm not sure it's even a concept at that age. Just
too much excitement going on, which doesn't exactly match Buffy's description. Warm & loved,
sure. But finished, complete? I don't think so. Even if children don't understand they're just starting
out, I doubt they have a feeling of being finished. (I certainly didn't!)
And no form? Huh-uh. Definitely not part of the childhood picture! Besides, if Buffy's 1st death
represented the end of her childhood (kinda late if you ask me) & this time it was the end of
adolescence...does anyone look back on their adolescence as heaven? Even if we didn't have the
responsibilities of adulthood yet, who thinks of that time as one of peace? completeness? happiness?
warmth? A lot of teenagers don't even feel sure they're loved. And again, formlessness...not part of
the picture.
So while there may be something to it, I'd say this particular metaphor can only be carried so
far.
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[> Re: Does "heaven" represent childhood? -- drc, 15:43:13 12/20/01 Thu
Hi,
I've been lurking on this great board for a couple of months now. In fact, it was due to several posts I
found here that I've been able to figure out how the show works (the basics of the concept, the
'Buffyverse' :-))).
So, I'd like to take this opportunity to send huge thanks especially and first and foremost to Age
whose ideas about the show's premise and concept he posted a couple of months ago have been real
eye-openers for me!!! (And I thorougly agree with what you said in one of your recent posts about the
brilliance of Joss and the writers!!!)
I've often been tempted to post but you guys are so eloquent and know so much about philosophies,
religions and stuff that somehow I never had the courage. Also, I'm not a native speaker so please
forgive me any bad spelling/grammar etc.
And another point: not being a philosopher, my approach to the show/episodes is a rather simple,
more direct one (trying to establish a relation to what we call 'Real Life').
I posted several of my ideas on another board but never got much feedback. So, when I saw this
thread I thought I should finally give it a try and repost my "analysis of Buffy's heaven"
here (posted before Smashed aired):
"Well, here is my theory on Buffy's heaven:
First, an excerpt of the relevant part in the script:
BUFFY
I was happy.
Beat.
SPIKE
I don't ...
BUFFY
Wherever I ... was ... I was happy. At peace. I knew that everyone I cared about was all right. I knew
it. Time didn't mean anything, nothing had form... but I was still me, you know? And I was warm
and I was loved... and I was finished. Complete. I don't understand about dimensions or theology or
any of ... but I think I was in heaven.
Spike stares, takes it in. She looks at him.
BUFFY
And now I'm not.
SPIKE
Buffy--
BUFFY
I was torn out of there. My friends pulled me out. And everything here is bright and hard and
violent... Everything I feel, everything I touch... this is Hell. Just getting through the next moment,
and the one after that... knowing what I've lost ...
I watched this scene a couple of times, and then it hit me: wouldn't this be the way we remember our
childhood/youth? When there was always someone (parents, family in general) around to take care of
things, to give comfort, to lean on ("I was warm and I was loved")? The 'funny' thing is we
mostly come to realise this only later when we learn what life in the adult world really means. As
children/teens we think life couldn't get any harder. Not to be allowed to see *that* particular guy
feels like the end of the world. First love--what about the sex? *He* seems to want it, so what should
"I" do? Is this the right moment, the right guy? Should I "act on want"? And
"What if I never feel this way again?" (quotes from Surprise, S2)
Everything feels and looks so huge, school, friends, guys(girls), trouble everywhere (so many demons
to slay :-)).
But we are sure once this awfully difficult time is over everything will be just 'peachy', very easy,
we'll know all the answers, will have solved all our problems, know how to deal with life in general.
Being an adult must be the easiest thing in the world.
And here's where Tara's words from Restless (repeated by Dracula in Buffy vs. Dracula) fit in:
"You think you know. What's to come, what you are -- You haven't even begun." (Buffy in
After Life: "I was finished. Complete.")
Now, that Buffy has to deal with the new hardships of life as an adult she looks back and sees those
past years in a whole different light. Suddenly, all those problems are nothing compared to what she
has to face now. And she is terribly scared (Bargaining) and has still not figured out what to do,
where to go.
(This whole situation could also be compared to Xander saving her in Prophecy Girl, thus helping her
to cross the line between childhood and adolescence, and then Buffy being so bad in When She Was
Bad and also needing some time to adjust and come to her senses again).
Which would lead to an interesting question: Buffy is blaming her friends for pulling her out of that
*heaven*. Actually, she made Willow feel guilty for having done this (in OMWF)--so who is *bad*
right now? IMO, Willow didn't do anything wrong when bringing Buffy back. (Her addiction has
started before and is--despite the mistakes she makes--not necessarily making her a really bad
person IMO.)"
Thanks,
drcoulter
Germany
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[> [> I should add... (spoilers for all seasons, also in post above) -- drc, 16:36:09 12/20/01
Thu
... here that I don't see the 'slayer' as some sort of supernatural being or creature but as a girl (as
confirmed i.a. in the teaser of The Gift
TEEN
But... you're just a girl ...
BUFFY
That's what I keep saying.)
who has to fight the hardships of life (slay demons), first as an adolescent, now in the adult
world.
Thanks
drcoulter
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[> [> Re: Does "heaven" represent childhood? Spoilers to Present. -- Age, 21:57:23
12/21/01 Fri
You are welcome.
It's good to know that ones postings are helpful. I had been lurking, posting only a few replies here
and there, until I read some threads about whether the big bads were good enough or not. In posting,
I wanted to highlight the metaphorical aspect of the series, including that of the big bads, because
this is one of the elements that sets the series apart from others.
I agree with your interpretation of heaven. Buffy has now died twice: her childhood and adolescence
have both gone. She is facing adult life, with her view of adolescence changed. The transition to
adulthood is marred by the death of her mother, and is making it that much harder. The use of death
and heaven, and as others have suggested, womb imagery, also points perhaps to the theme of the
re-invention of the character and to the coming back to life of someone in mourning.
I really enjoyed the first half of this season, and am looking forward to the second. This is a
wonderful series, made all the better for the opportunity to read and post analysis of it.
Age.
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[> [> [> Big Bads......why do they have to be so big? -- Rufus, 03:17:01 12/22/01 Sat
I remember reading posts that griped about Glory being a lousy Big Bad and they never felt
threatened by her cause she was a bit of a loon. I don't think it's the size of the big bad as much as
the situation the big bad is around that makes the difference. The Mayor was a great big bad and
wasn't physically big til the season finale, but even with his attention to details (clean finger nails)
he had a sugar-coated menace to him that was evident when you paid attention to more than what
he said. He may have been offering milk and cookies but he was evil, worse in that he had a control
over the population of the city. It was when he took the visage of the giant snake that he was
brought down to a level that he could easily be killed. As a man with a deal with the dark powers he
was invincible. I liked him plus, bonus, he cleaned up after himself....;)
With Glory, she was a god in a human prison. She was also going insane from the influence of the
human emotions she made fun of. In the finale you had to wonder who was more evil, Glory who was
just doing what she could to get home and get revenge, or Ben who was willing to destroy the world
to live? Sure Glory didn't seem much like a Big Bad but she was more powerful than Buffy and the
situation she put Buffy in caused the Slayers death. So, I wonder, what purpose does the big bad
have this season?
Alias -- Copper, 14:34:00 12/19/01 Wed
My adult son and I think Alias is the best new show on TV. I think Buffy is still the overall best
show because of its depth and the great writing, but I also really, really like Alias, probably because
Sydney is another kick-ass female: tough and smart.
What do the rest of you think?
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[> Re: Alias -- verdantheart, 14:58:09 12/19/01 Wed
Really like the role of her father. The actor does an excellent job of showing pain through a buttoned-
up exterior.
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[> [> I watch but I seethe while I watch..... -- AurraSing, 15:15:15 12/19/01 Wed
Sid and her dad are great,but some of the peripheral characters drive me crazy...particularily her
newspaper-writer friend.Argh!!
However,I will admit Sid can kick ass with the best of them.Plus she does do conflicted pretty
well,the writers just don't let us get enough screen time of her trying to work out her problems
because of course we just have to get to the baddie of the week.(grumble)
Plus hey,rumours are going around that Sloane is her real dad.How nasty is that??(heh heh
heh..)
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[> Re: Alias -- maddog, 09:14:37 12/20/01 Thu
It is a great show, probably the best new show of the season(though 24 is a great one too). What I
like about it is the suspense combined with the plot twists...whenever you think you know what
happened they changed it. Pretty cool that way.
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[> Re: Alias -- Tanker, 20:17:59 12/20/01 Thu
I love the spy stuff, I hate the "Felicity" stuff (with her roommate and that idiot
newspaper guy who can't get killed soon enough for me).
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[> [> Re: Alias -- Andy, 10:25:50 12/21/01 Fri
I pretty much agree. The SD-6 guys are cool. Older, experienced actors whose faces have a lot of
character to them. But all of her civilian friends, and the CIA stud, drove me crazy. I thought her
annoying fiance getting killed in the premiere was a sign that the show would be to my liking but
since they haven't killed any of the others, who are actually worse than the fiance, I had to stop
watching the show.
Andy
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> I haven't seen "Alias" yet so I'm very excited about the upcoming marathon... --
Rob, 11:43:47 12/21/01 Fri
...on the ABC Family Network. They're going to be rerunning EVERY SINGLE already-aired episode
from 12 noon to 10 pm, in order, on New Year's Day!!
So I'm very eager to catch up, and then if I like it, watch the show regularly. I love this chance,
which is rare. Usually when a new show starts and I miss the first episode, I just end up not
watching it.
I've heard only great things about "Alias," and I love those types of shows, so I really
can't wait. I'll give you my opinion once I see it.
Rob
TV to DVD - slightly off the subject -- diagnoztix, 17:49:56 12/19/01 Wed
I was just wondering if any1 out there could give me some advice on the best way connect up a DVD
player (with a choice of terminals) to an oldish TV with just a SCART out and a R/F out!? I am a
DVD-ignorant buffy fan and want to collect the series on DVD cus I'm fed up with VCRs chewing my
precious tapes!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: TV to DVD - slightly off the subject -- OnM, 20:35:26 12/19/01 Wed
Do you mean hookup to play a DVD on your older TV, or are you trying to record a DVD from your
old TV?
I would normally assume the former, but in either case:
Older TV's that only have an RF input connector (for cable TV or antenna connection) can be hooked
to a DVD player by first passing the DVD output signals through a standard stereo VCR so that the
modulator in the VCR can put the audio/video on an RF carrier (channel 3 or 4, typically).
Hook the VCR to the TV in the usual fashion:
Cable feed --> VCR ANTENNA IN --> VCR 'TO TV OUT' --> to TV ANTENNA IN
connector.
Now you will need one video cable (75 ohm w/RCA plugs at both ends) and a standard RCA style
stereo audio patch cord. Connect as follows:
DVD video output to VCR video input. DVD stereo audio output (sometimes labeled '2-ch downmix')
to VCR stereo audio input. ('LINE 1' or LINE 2' jacks, typ. red, white and yellow for audio-right,
audio-left and video respectively).
Turn the TV to channel 3 or 4 (whatver your VCR outputs an RF signal on). Set your VCR to it's line
1 or line 2 input, which ever ones you connected the cables from the DVD to.
The VCR will place the audio/video signals on an RF carrier (channel 3 or 4) and so feed it into your
TV's tuner.
Sorry I can't provide a drawing, this is really ludicrously easy to do, it's just hard to describe in a few
words.
If you are going the other way, connect your VCR's audio and video outputs to the inputs of your
DVD recorder. Tune the VCR to the channel you want to record. The VCR's tuner will provide an
audio and video output for the recorder.
Not sure it's worth wasting a DVD-R on a typical cable or antenna signal, BTW, but as I said, I
wasn't sure what direction you were trying to go in.
Hope this helps!
Rock n Roll High School (BtVS fiction continued) -- matching mole, 20:56:52 12/19/01
Wed
Here's the next installment.
Shadows on the Bottom of the Sea
Part Two: Rock 'n' Roll High School.
I was sitting in the Brooklyn Diner early on Monday morning. Normally I eat breakfast at home
before going to the site but Anya had stayed late at the magic shop the night before. She was still
fast asleep when I got up so I decided to slip out without waking her. If she's late for work she'll be a
bit miffed but what difference will it make? She's the boss and no one's coming in to buy a potion
before 10 AM on Monday.
But I digress. I was in the Brooklyn Diner. I've never been to Brooklyn but I'll go out on a limb and
say that this is the kind of diner they have there. Lots of chrome and other shiny things. Bright
colors on the non-metal parts. The owner's probably been to Brooklyn lots of times and why would he
lie to me?
Anyway I was sitting there poking my bacon and eggs and trying to work up the energy to finish
them off but not really wanting to because then I'd have to get up and go off to work. Then this song
came on. An oldie but not a diner oldie, y'know. A diner oldie would be something by Elvis or some
fifties vocal group that I've never heard of. This is one with a bunch of nifty piano work and a line
about not liking Mondays. That's probably the name: I Don't Like Mondays. It came out long ago I'm
sure, but not as long ago as Elvis. Probably after Elvis died I'm thinkin'.
The song was kind of distracting because it was so appropriate. It was 6:15 on a Monday morning
and I wasn't happy about it. I had a magazine with me that I was trying to read. It was about
military ordinance, what was new in the firepower department. At least what was new and
declassified. I like to keep up on stuff like that. Military stuff seems to be my specialty in the
Scoobies, ever since that business with the Judge. Of course lately it seems like all I do is worry
about Buffy and then worry about Willow. That's the Scooby worrying. On my own time I worry
about getting married. Which is kind of reassuring. Twenty year old guys should be worried about
getting married. It seems like a normal kind of worry. Not a having-my-memory-erased-by-my-
magic-addicted-best-friend worry.
So eating my breakfast was proving to be quite a complex operation. I was hungry and I had to get to
the site by 6:45 so I wanted to eat. On the other hand I really didn't want to get up and leave so I
was dragging it out. And simultaneously I was reading up on all the trendy new hand grenades and
listening to this Monday song.
Then this tentacle tapped me on the elbow. As you might imagine this kind of caught me off guard.
Even after five years as a Scooby you don't expect that kind of thing before eight on a Monday
morning. It was a 1950s horror movie kind of tentacle - a bit stiff and quivering rather than your
more sophisticated writhing action.
"So how's your day looking?" the owner of the tentacle asked me. It had somehow
managed to slide into the booth across from me unnoticed. Kind of a neat trick for a mound of
crinoids attached to a tree trunk with a starfish on top. I'll bet you think that I don't know what a
crinoid is. Well you'd be wrong. They're this underwater thing, kind of like a thin-armed starfish on a
stalk. I saw a display in a museum once. Smart me.
"Did you like the tentacle? I stiffened it up a little to give it that period flavour. Subtlety, that's
what that is."
"Yeah, I guess so." Not the snappiest comeback in the world but you find yourself sitting
across from a talking piece of Marineland and see how you do. I was just proud that I didn't run
screaming out of the joint. Though as it turns out I wasn't quite as bold as I thought.
"Of course the music doesn't really fit in with the ambience." The song was ending, with
the singer declaring that he wanted to 'shoot the whole day down'. Fine with me. "I really have
to admire your contemporary music from a philosophical angle. I mean hair styles, cheekbones,
breasts, midriffs, costumes, choreography. It's got it all. You've created music in which the sound is
almost completely irrelevant. But when I came in the door and sat down at the bar the tunes just
didn't do it for me. So I changed them."
"O.K. hold it right there buster. I've got two questions for you." I don't know what came
over me. Normally I'm not all chatty and argumentative with monsters. But it was Monday morning.
"One, where do you get off bad mouthing our music? It's not all boy bands and teen sex pots.
Go down to the Bronze some night and check out the real stuff. Two, you came in and sat at the bar?
Did they serve you?"
"No, the Slayer was right. They all ran away. Quite predictable really. You were the only one
who stayed."
"And then you did some sort of magic thing to change all the music to retro?" A new song
had started up now. 'I just wanna meet some chicks. I just wanna get some kicks.' I remember when
life was that simple.
"No I took their tape out and put one of mine in." Two or three tentacles were keeping
time with the Ramones. The more I looked at this thing the weirder it seemed. The size and shape
seemed all wrong somehow, like all of its parts couldn't possibly fit together the way they did. And it
looked at least fifteen feet tall and fit quite nicely into the booth. "And I thought that you
would do just fine."
"Fine for what?" All sorts of unpleasant possibilities crossed my mind but for some
reason I wasn't that concerned.
"Being interviewed. Life on the Hellmouth and all that."
"Ask away." It did sound intriguing.
"What are you eating?" One of the starfish arms swiveled around and took a look at my
plate.
"Bacon and eggs. The food of hellmouth champions." I jammed a bit in my mouth. Then it
dawned on me. "You know Buffy?"
"Is that talking pig bacon or regular pig bacon? Talking pig is supposed to taste a lot better. Of
course not nearly as good as dog. I met her last night."
"Yuck. If I may say so. I'm afraid to ask what you had for breakfast."
"Necromancer. Actually more of a midnight snack."
"Necromancer meaning?"
"Sorcerer who raises the dead to do his bidding. The standard definition."
A sudden dread came over me. "You didn't eat Buffy did you? She's O.K., right?"
"As far as I know. Not completely omniscient."
"Tell you what. Not really hungry any more." I stood up and pushed the plate towards
the thing. "You can finish it. I've got to get to work." I bolted out the door looking back.
About a block later I slowed down. The what-ever-it-was must have done something to me. Inside the
diner I had been all calm and collected, trading witty remarks with one mother of all hell beasts.
Once I put some distance between us I was trembling like crazy.
Now the sensible thing to do would have been to go looking for Buffy or Willow. But I was getting
late for work and I didn't want to wake them up so early in the morning. Doesn't make much sense
does it? Hindsight is just great, especially when the magic's had time to wear off completely. So I
went to work and didn't really think too much more about it. Things like that don't really happen to
me every day but this is still Sunnydale home of the Hellmouth. It was kind of a cold day with a little
rain and everything kept going wrong. Cables came loose, concrete spilled, bricks fell off the
scaffolding. Made it tough to think about anything other than the job for very long.
We quit early on account of the weather and I headed straight to the magic shop. It was beginning to
dawn on me that I had been a bit remiss in not reporting my monster encounter. I kept looking down
alleys and across parking lots for any sign the thing. No luck.
The rain was pretty heavy by the time I got out of the car. I dashed down the street and threw the
door open to get out of the wet. Anya was at the register. Sometimes I think she's attached to it with
some sort of invisible chain.
"Hi honey. There's a ghoul in the back room."
"Baby have I ever told you how much I love your cheerful greetings. Makes my whole day. And
what the hell did you just say?"
"There's a ghoul in the back. You know. Eater of the dead. Rubbery flesh, coarse features.
Through that door in the room behind this one."
"Not a pleasant image, An. What's it doing there?"
"Buffy brought it. Last night before I came home."
"And you didn't tell me, why?"
"You were all grumpy about me working late and how weird Buffy and Willow have been
acting even though it isn't really any of our business that I didn't want to upset you any
further."
"Never mind. What is Buffy planning to do with this ghoul thing?"
"She didn't say. Keep it is a pet, maybe. Ghouls make pretty good pets. As long as you're alive
they probably won't eat you. And it's really cute to see one batting a skull across the
floor."
"I doubt she got it as a pet. Did she say anything else?"
"She and Spike had been out with it looking for some sort of monster. They tried to find it in
the books but no luck. A sort of starfish thingy."
"A thing with a starfish head and crinoids all over the rest of it?" Things were beginning
to make sense. If the thing had seen Buffy last night then she had probably seen it. Not exactly an
inconspicuous critter. And, unlike me, she had decided to do something about it right way. That's
why she's the slayer and I'm the loyal but often bumbling sidekick.
"Could be. I wasn't paying all that much attention. All the talismans had to be re-inventoried.
Why don't you ask Howard?"
"And Howard would be?"
"The ghoul. In the back room?" Anya gave me this look like I was the world's biggest
idiot which I'm pretty sure was unjustified. Not sure enough to call her on it though.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Rock n Roll High School (2) -- matching mole, 21:00:01 12/19/01 Wed
"The ghoul is called Howard?" This seemed unlikely enough to justify further
clarification.
"I believe I just said that. Anyway he's right back there if you want some more
info."
I started for the back door and something occurred to me. "This ghoul. Howard, if you will. Is
he safe? Not likely to eat me?"
"Probably not. You're alive you see. Ghouls almost never eat anybody alive." She turned
away from the register and reached under the counter. "If you want to be on the safe side you
can take this in with you." She pulled out a bone, a femur or a humerus or something. Looked
like it might be human. "He might be getting kind of hungry by now."
"Thanks, An. I don't want to ask why you have this in the shop or where you got it but I'd like
to say that I am greatly honoured that you took it off the shelf to keep me safe."
"No big deal. I'm going to charge Howard for it."
"Charge the ghoul? You might not be able to do that."
"Why not? He's already getting free accommodation here."
"He might not have any money."
"Oh." Her face sank for a moment and then she smiled again. "Then I'll just charge
Buffy."
I considered responding to that but then thought better of it. Instead I opened the door and came
face to face with Howard. He was pale and kind of loose skinned and soft-looking with big feet, big
hands, big ears, and a big flat nose. The remains of his suit looked like it had been kind of old-
fashioned.
"Good afternoon," he said. Then he pulled out a pocket watch and checked it.
"Hey," I said. Then nothing. Of the two monsters I'd encountered that day, Howard was
definitely the less talkative. I heard the front door bell ring, indicating someone entering or leaving
the shop.
"Is that bone for me?" he said eventually.
"Yeah, I guess. If I get something in return." I thought I'd watched enough cop shows to
pull this off.
"Something in return?"
"Info. About a certain starfish headed critter that I met in a diner this morning."
"Oh the Old One. It was in a diner?"
"Yeah. Playing retro music and going on about talking pigs when I was eating bacon. So what's
the deal with this Old One?"
"The deal?"
"You know. Where did it come from? Why's it here? How do you kill it? The standard
stuff."
If that were possible I'd swear that Howard went even paler at that point.
"Kill an Old One! That is impossible. They existed long before the dawn of life on this world
and will be here after our sun is extinguished. To them we are less than insects. Less than microbes
crawling through the soil."
"Not exactly helpful information. You got anything more?"
"You are a foolish mortal and you know not of what you speak." Howard was beginning
to look pretty nervous.
"Well it's a start." I stepped back through the doorway and called to Anya.
"You know anything about Old Ones? Have we got any books on them?" That's one
advantage of having an ex-demon girlfriend. Can save a bunch of time on research.
"Old Ones. Spoken of in hushed whispers if at all? Those Old Ones? They're servants of the
Elder Gods. Scariest thing next to socialism."
"And the Elder Gods are what? Rulers of some hell dimension like Glory?"
"No they're much older. Oldest things there are. Hence the name. The Elder Gods wouldn't
even bother to speak to an upstart deity like Glory. Even their servants would snub her."
"So these Old Ones are snobs. What else?"
"I don't know. We demons kept our heads down and hoped not to run into them. Mostly we
didn't even like to think of them."
"Why not?"
Anya frowned. I think that frowning might be one of the cutest things she does. "I'm not really
sure. I knew this primordial Sap Demon once who kept going on about blissful ignorance and
shattering preconceptions about the nature of the universe but it never made much sense to me.
Come to think of it, he always did seem kind of paranoid."
"Well how about books? Any books that might help us out?"
"There aren't very many books on the Old Ones or the Elder Gods out there. People who try
and write them often go insane and miss deadlines. Even the books that are in existence aren't big
sellers. People who own them are prone to mysterious disappearances, rapid aging, that sort of
thing. Tends to put the reading public off."
It was at this point that I felt something tugging on the bone I was holding. Howard had followed me
into the shop and was starting to gnaw on it. I guess that was pretty reasonable from his
perspective. I had reneged on my deal with him. He just wanted what was coming to him: his
skeleton sandwich. However I wasn't really expecting this and was trying to pull the bone loose
when a voice came out of the shelves at the very front of the store.
"I met one of the Old Ones today." I turned around and moved over to try and hide
Howard. A blonde woman stepped out from behind a shelf and headed our way. The first instant I
saw her I thought she was really hot but as she got closer I saw that she was pretty old, older than
Giles, older even than my parents. Still pretty hot though. Don't tell Anya.
"I learned about them years ago. Didn't give them much thought. One of the nasty realities of
existence that you can't do anything about like global warming or income tax." She was British
with a kind of posh accent like Giles. But her voice had this real raspy edge to it like she'd been
drinking too much for a long time. She sounded like a really sophisticated, sexy wino. "And
there one was. Here in Sunnydale, California."
I glared at Anya and she glared right back at me. Both of us had forgotten that someone else had
come into the shop.
"I'm Petula by the way. Petula Snodd. I just came in here to get some more herbal tea but I see
I've stumbled on to something much more interesting. I guess the rumours about the hellmouth are
true."
It suddenly dawned on me. "You're a watcher!"
She laughed. "Not hardly. I turned my back on that old boys club before you were
born."
"Did Giles send you?" I could hear the 'I'm not going to stand for this' in Anya's tone loud
and clear. "Does he think I'm not running the shop properly? It's not fair. There's a
recession."
"Rupert? Yes I heard he was the watcher here. I haven't seen him since that spot of difficulty
in the seventies."
"Well he's gone now. Back to England. Leaving the shop in my capable hands." Anya was
not taking well to our new visitor.
"Don't worry dear. I'm not going to take over this establishment. Charming as it may be."
Petula looked around as she was talking. I could have listened to her for hours. "Oh, I see you
have a ghoul. How very quaint. Adds immeasurably to the atmosphere. And I hear they do wonders
at keeping down the cockroaches."
"Cockroaches! This is a pest free establishment. Except for the customers of course."
Noting a lack of reaction, Anya shrugged, "Retail humour."
I decided to change the subject. When I'm around Anya that happens about once every five minutes.
"He's not our ghoul. His name's Howard but he doesn't belong to us. Our friend
Buffy..."
"Ah yes, the Slayer."
"What do you know about the Slayer?" I guess if she was a one-time watcher it wasn't so
surprising that she knew about the Buffster. Didn't sit well all the same. I guess we're used to
keeping things secret.
"Oh nothing unusual. Buffy Anne Summers. Arrived in Sunnydale in 1997. Killed the Master.
Turned Angel into Angelus and then sent him to hell. Saved the world on several other occasions.
Dropped out of college. Was brought back from the dead. Likes Ice Capades, whatever they might
be."
I think my jaw must dropped to the floor because I found myself unable to speak for a minute.
Howard chipped in to fill the conversational void. "Very nice to meet you Miss Snod." He
stared at one of his oversize feet. I don't know if all ghouls are as polite as Howard but if they are I'm
going out on a limb and say that they are a misunderstood group of demons. Not so easy on the eyes
but I've seen worse. And not making smart remarks and acting all cool like vampires.
"Charmed." She gave the rubbery guy a smile. Made me feel all warm and fuzzy just
from the collateral damage. Howard started cleaning his claws. "Don't look so shocked. I just
hang out with the right crowd and keep my eyes and ears open. Anyone on the west coast with half a
brain should be able to find all that out with a few phone calls and a couple of hours on the internet.
Except for the Ice Capades thing. Quite proud of that. Nifty bit of sleuthing."
"Well Ms. Snod. If that is your real name. Assuming you're not a Watcher. And you're not some
sort of very attractive demon. Which I'm not saying you're not. Very attractive that is. Or a demon.
Ow! But assuming that you're not, who the hell are you?"
I should explain at this point that my cry of pain was due to Anya.
"Oh, I'm just a tourist. Enjoying California's endless sunshine and demons. Then I saw the Old
One. The Slayer's probably out of her depth on this I thought. Hell I'm out of my depth. Could have
knocked me down with a pin when I realized that. Quite exhilarating."
"I tried to warn her. The Old Ones have power vaster than any dream. They span the vastness
of time and space as we would cross this room." Howard had shuffled out from behind my back.
The rain had stopped and he squinted at the sunlight streaming in through the windows. "It is
vain to stand against them. But I fear that the madness that has drawn her to the vampire has
clouded her judgment."
It was at this point that I felt the need to slow down and get off. I'm not sure what we were on but I
had to get off it. So I said, "I think I speak for all of us here when I say, huh? What are you
talking about?"
"She and the vampire. The one who speaks and dresses like the lowest sort of ruffian. I saw
them together. I could smell them."
At this point I really wasn't ready for any more revelations or surprises. Or anybody new coming in
through the front door. I felt like I needed a week to process. And deal. But that was just too bad
because right then Buffy and some other girl came flying in through the window and started rolling
around on the floor punching each other. Now back when I was in high school I would have thought
that was pretty cool. Hell it would have made my week. But right then it was the last thing I
needed.
"Who's going to pay for that?" That's my girl. At least there's one thing in life I can count
on.
End of Part II
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> amazing, mm! -- anom, 22:50:32 12/19/01 Wed
Great 1st-person-ing! I think you've got a real grasp of Xander's POV.
BTW, I appreciate the incorporation of the 1st names of some great writers of stuff of this ilk...but
I'm not picking up on "Petula"....
(*button*Cthulhu Express: when it absolutely, positively has to be turned into an eldritch crawling
horror in eons*/button*)
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[> [> [> petula -- matching mole, 05:56:13 12/20/01 Thu
thanks. Petula's name came about simply because I heard a Petula Clark song on the radio the other
day. She's not based on any teller of weird tales.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> hehehehe.....I love this! Please keep going. -- LadyStarlight, 05:55:38 12/20/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> I'm lovin' every minute, mole! ;o) -- WW, 19:20:30 12/20/01 Thu
Can't wait for the next installment!
She came back wrong (speculation) -- TMZ, 22:58:52 12/19/01 Wed
Or rather, she didn't come back at all.
Buffy 2.0 is a corpse reanimated by magic, that has the memories of Buffy, and operates under the
control of another entity. Like a vampire, except where the demon takes control of the form creating
a hybrid, this time the entity is the "Slayer."
BuffyDeux is about as much Buffy as Spike is William.
The question this season seems to ask "how much does a soul make a person?"
S6 of BTVS is becoming increasingly fascinating, Buffy-Spike dynamic included, not because of a
ship thing, but rather, because of what it represents to the formerly black-and-white set of
Sunnydale. I see S6 beginning to take on the grey of Angel's universe.
So if NewBuffy is more Spike-like, then is there hope for her regaining her humanity? Taking Spike's
journey through the seasons, I tend to believe so.
From "School Hard":
Angel: Things change.
Spike: Not us! Not demons!
To "The Gift":
SPIKE: I know that I'm a monster. But you treat me like a man. And that's...
And then "Smashed":
Spike: A man can change.
Spike has moved from identifying himself as a "demon" to a "man." It's an
interesting shift in self perception.
Because if Spike really, truly does love Buffy in the real sense and is not just reflecting some
simulacrum of his former humanity - Darla's love for her unborn child seems to vaguely suggest at it,
but is it because of the child's soul she carries inside of her, or perhaps as Dru avers in Crush,
"We can love quite well. If not wisely." Too bad she died before we are given any further
illumination.
The Slayer's tryst with Spike opens up the proverbial morass of ethical worms. And for some reason I
find this morbidly fascinating.
It felt good. But it was with a monster. Therefore it must be wrong.
Because once she starts thinking of Spike as a man instead of a "thing", it no longer
becomes such a simple issue.
This, I believe, is the crux of the Buff's conflict. If she can keep "us" on one side and
"them" on the other, she can keep on believing that what she's doing is for the good
without question, and without attacks of uncomfortable conscience towards the enemy. It's no longer
about killing evil nasties and saving the world from the plural of apocalypse, firmly entrenched on
the side of right.
Would the "Real" Buffy have had sex with Spike? Hard to say, but it's doubtful.
"Real" Buffy was human, thus on the "other side" of the divide.
Buffy 2.0 is beginning to realize that she may be as much of a "thing" as Spike.
"You can act as high and mighty as you like ... but I know where you live now, Slayer.
"
Indeed.
I believe that is why Joss brought back Buffy "wrong" - to have her experience the
alienation of not-being-quite there. She's being uncomfortably close into the other side's Doc Martens
and because of that, it not only affords her the experience of straddling the uncomfortable ethical
divide, but it also bring a big question of her role as a Slayer as well.
For B, this is sort of her Ats Season 2 arc - the tearing down of old preconceived notions and
rebuilding, healing herself with perhaps a better insight into her nature as the Chosen One.
In all the previous seasons of BTVS, there has always been a clear line between "us" and
"them," the eternal struggle between light and dark. Characters were defined within
simple parameters, and it was either good or bad. The Master was bad. Angelus was bad. As were
the Mayor, Adam and Glory.
Now, almost halfway through the season, there doesn't seem to be some big target with a sign saying
"hey, I'm the bad guy," anywhere in sight. Instead, it's turned inwards, asking all sorts of
uncomfortable questions about the nature of evil - and instead of querying "who/what is the
bad thing," it ponders the idea of what if "them" is "us."
--TMZ
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> There are a lot of ways she could be "wrong," but I think she's still Buffy. --
bookworm, 07:02:01 12/20/01 Thu
I think this is a very believable portrait of the real-deal, human Buffy, who has been wrenched from
the bliss of heaven. I don't think a magically reanimated corpse with Buffy's memories would be
capable of the kind of torment that Buffy is experiencing. Such a person -- a person without Buffy's
soul and only her memories of humanity -- would be ONLY the Slayer, nothing more than a down to
business dispatcher of demons. This is Depressed!Buffy. Buffy complains to Spike about how she
feels like she's just going through the motions, how she doesn't feel anything and how, paradoxically,
the "hard, bright" world is Hell. When she does let herself feel something, it's nothing
but bad. To survive the pain, she's shut herself down, protected herself by feeling nothing or by
grabbing on to Giles or "Daddy," who will make everything better. She's describing
classic symptoms of depression. When you're that depressed, you feel like your emotions are muffled
through layers of cotton wool or shrouded in mist. Everything is blunted. It's so maddening after
awhile that you wish you could feel anything, even pain. Or, to use another analogy, it's like her leg
has fallen to sleep and now it's starting to come back to life with stabs and prickles of pain. Spike's
comment in "Wrecked" -- "You FELT something" -- takes on new meaning in
that context. I think what he did, or started to do, was pummel the physical and emotional
numbness out of her. "I think it's right to stop, no matter how good it feels," she tells
Willow at the end of "Wrecked." Is that the first time this season she's admitted, even
indirectly, to anything feeling good? I think there are a lot of possibilities for her being
"wrong."
1. The most plausible explanation to me is that Spike can hit her because he doesn't intend to really
hurt or kill her. He said it in "Wrecked": "I wasn't going to hurt you ... much."
He was far more interested in demonstrating to her that he had his "rocks back" and was
therefore now a worthy candidate to be her lover than he was in administering a real beat down. He
had sex on his brain, not killing. She isn't "wrong" at all. Another possibility for me is
that Buffy's body is actually not her body, but a magically created copy of the first one. Is it remotely
possible that Willow deliberately or inadvertently called on some of Dawn's essence to remake
Buffy's body, since the monks used Buffy to fashion Dawn's blood and bones? Maybe some of Dawn's
"Key" essence is now part of Buffy as well. I think it's possible that Dawn in her true
form is probably some type of God herself, maybe even a younger sister of Glorificus. Spike has never
tried to hit or to hurt Dawn. It might be interesting to see if he could. I bet the chip wouldn't work on
her either. Maybe neither of the Summers women are strictly human now. They're gods. Maybe
they'd also be immortal, though as capable of being hurt or killed as any other demon species.
3. The third possibility is that Buffy is part angel or an angel-like creature and was returned to earth
to complete a mission for the Powers that Be. She retains some element of heaven.
4. Maybe she was never intended to stay in heaven permanently, but to live another life on earth. In
some faiths, Heaven is a resting place for souls to wait until they are born again and continue the
struggle on earth. Only, Willow pulled Buffy's soul into her previous body, something that was not
supposed to happen. Her karma is majorly screwed up. She'd already learned the lessons she was
supposed to learn in her incarnation as Buffy. It is not time for her to live her next life, but here she
is. She's a true wild card. Maybe natural law isn't sure what to do with her or what lessons she is
supposed to learn here, and that is why Spike is able to hit her. She no longer has a fate in this life.
She is human and Buffy, but her existence is outside the natural law.
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[> [> Re: There are a lot of ways she could be "wrong," but I think she's still Buffy.
-- Sophie, 07:49:32 12/20/01 Thu
I was wondering if Buffy is now a god. In OMwF, she discovers that the fire is cold and doesn't burn
her. Demons and vamps burn. What doesn't burn? Would Glory have burned? Just musings...
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[> [> [> I haven't seen OmwF yet, but that's an intriguing possibility. -- bookworm, 09:26:16
12/20/01 Thu
I read somewhere that Joss Wheden said she wouldn't come back with any increased powers. Was it
demonic fire? An illusion? If anything, I'd say Buffy is just getting in touch with her darker side.
She's discovering the "other" meaning of "You are filled with love" and
"Death is your gift." Buffy seems strongest when strong emotions, specifically sex/love,
are involved. In one of the fifth season episodes, she feels angry and sexually betrayed and
compensates by demolishing the vamps Riley has been feeding on within seconds. Zander seems to
find this unusual. In the episode where Anya's ex-boyfriend the troll comes back, Buffy is losing the
fight until Olaf mentions that Anya and Zander will never stay together. Then, angry and
threatened by the thought of someone destroying a "beautiful love," she demolishes him.
In "Smashed," Spike deliberately pissed her off and roused her sexually. She seemed so
strong he could barely keep up with her. She throws Spike off her and into a wall with just one hand.
In the early episodes, I don't remember seeing her quite that strong.
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[> [> Re: There are a lot of ways she could be "wrong," but I think she's still Buffy.
-- TMZ, 07:53:45 12/20/01 Thu
:: I don't think a magically reanimated corpse with Buffy's memories would be capable of the kind of
torment that Buffy is experiencing.::
Ah, you gave me an opening ;). Let's take a quote from Afterlife:
SPIKE: Well, I haven't been to a hell dimension just of late, but I do know a thing or two about
torment.
Whether it's his torment or another's isn't clear, but in this case, Spike being a reanimated corpse of
sorts shouldn't have been able to feel the kind of grief over Buffy dying in the Gift.
:: Such a person -- a person without Buffy's soul and only her memories of humanity -- would be
ONLY the Slayer, nothing more than a down to business dispatcher of demons. ::
That's exactly how she was when she first came back - confused, frightened, angry, yes, but when it
came down to nuts, she was the slayer. It took Dawn nearly taking another dive off the tower to
bring her back - the connection with humanity appears to be the key.
Plus we don't know what the slayer is. Supernatural for sure, but the specifics aren't clear, much like
the vagueness of the vampire's demon.
Because if the case of ghost in the shell is to be argued, why isn't Spike or Dalton more Master or
Kakistos-like? Spike is, after all, merely a reanimated corpse with a demon driver. Yet, as the Judge
says, he reeks of humanity. And I doubt it's just the chip forcing him to not hunt that does it. It's his
constant contact and interaction with others, whether it's Drusilla, Buffy or the Scooby Gang that
humanizes him.
I believe that's what makes a fundamental difference between him and the other true demons. Even
Angel seems to understand this at some level. Early Angelus reflects a lot on early Spike - the
Master berates him for interacting with humans in "Darla."
Master: "We stalk the surface to feed and grow our ranks. We do not live amongst the human
pestilence!"
Isolation, it appears, cultivates the demon, as well as the dissociating yourself from your prey, ie,
seeing people as walking Happy Meals.
Hmm... guess that would make the slayer a Happy Meal with a shotgun.
And again, it asks the question - how much of William is in Spike? The way Spike's past comes full
circle in Fool for Love via the "You're beneath me" statements from Cecily and Buffy
seems to suggest despite the turning and his need to build a 'Big Bad' identity to shut away his
disgust at the limp-wristed fop he sees his human self as, there is still quite a bit of his former self in
his shell.
Tabula Rasa seems to imply that without preconceived notions of who we are and that quite a bit of
a person's inherent personality can exist without a soul.
Spike doesn't know that he's a demon. Even when Buf points it out to him he still doesn't think he's
a bad guy.
Just as the demon had to come from somewhere, so does the Slayer. It could be very well be the
slayer that's grumpy about being pulled from her heavenly rest.
I haven't ruled out the idea of depression or PTSD, but somehow it seems a little too...literal for a
show that prides itself on using metaphors for everything.
--TMZ
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[> [> [> What Buffy and Spike mean by "torment" might be very different. --
bookworm, 08:54:59 12/20/01 Thu
Spike knows what it means to be physically and emotionally tortured. He certainly knows what pain
is. Glory beat him to a pulp; Drusilla stomped all over his heart when she went to Angel and to the
fungus demon. He's visited hell dimensions a time or two. The show has demonstrated very well that
he -- and other vampires -- feel love and hate and grief. But he doesn't understand the torment that a
human being would feel when wrenched from a perfect world into an IMPERFECT one or from Eden
into the fallen world. When he was speaking to Buffy, I think he meant that she must have been
tormented not to be in "this world," the world that Spike loves so much. Spike's never
visited heaven. How would the reanimated magic corpse/Slayer Buffy know what heaven felt like if
she hadn't been there and come back? The show may pride itself on making everything a metaphor,
but not to the extent that it ignores reality. If Buffy says Heaven exists, then some sort of Heaven
probably exists in reality, not as just a metaphor for childhood, though it it that too. If Buffy acts
depressed or hot for Spike, then she's probably depressed and hot for Spike, even if her actions are
supposed to be a heavy-handed metaphor for addiction or a foil for Willow's addiction. I'm not saying
that Buffy is a normal human being, but I do think she is wholly the Buffy who has always been on
the show. The question of the nature of the Slayer is an interesting one. Maybe we have never
KNOWN the real Buffy Summers, because she has always been the "Slayer." I don't
think that any of the Slayers are entirely human. My best guess is that each Slayer undergoes a kind
of possession when she is "Chosen," by demon or goddess or ghost or whatever the hell
kind of atavistic thing it is and that their humanity lives in symbiosis with what is possessing them.
It may be very much like what happens with vampires. It would make sense if the Slayer and
vampires were like two sides of a coin. In both, there are physical changes, emotional changes,
mental changes, when the human undergoes the metamorphosis to vampire or Slayer. Buffy must
not have had super strength or special healing powers before she was 15, so something in the person
she was was irrevocably changed at the moment the previous Slayer died. There must be something
in the physical makeup of each potential "Chosen One" that makes her ideal for
possession by the spirit. In the movie, potential Chosen Ones were identified by being born with a
mole. I'd argue that part of Buffy is, in some sense at least, the same person as the Slayers that
Spike killed but wanted to shag. She's always lived in symbiosis with the ghost of the Slayer, but she
has been fighting it back and pretending that she IS just a human with super powers, not something
other than human. Of course, Buffy had already died once and another Slayer was called. Maybe the
ghost of the Slayer inhabited Buffy and Kendra and then Faith at the same time, existed in two
different places, which would explain Buffy's strange relationship with Faith. Part of them was the
same at their core.
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[> [> [> [> Although the Slayer may never have been fully human... -- Rob, 10:33:25
12/20/01 Thu
...it is clear that she was HUMAN before. Why? Spike could not harm her before, with the chip in
place. Whatever supernatural powers she had, she was, on the whole, a human being first and
foremost. Now it seems that she is not...
Rob
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[> [> [> [> [> Not necessarily. It may have something to do with Spike's intent. --
bookworm, 16:54:15 12/20/01 Thu
Before, he hit her with the intention of harming her. If he didn't really intend to hurt her when he
hit her in "Smashed," the chip might not have reacted. She may not be
"wrong" at all. Slayers are probably both human and supernatural, but I'd agree that
they're mainly human.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not necessarily. It may have something to do with Spike's
intent. -- Rufus, 22:36:18 12/20/01 Thu
First, Buffy has died...that alone can't be ignored....not the few minutes dead from season one, but 3
months dead. Her experience of the afterlife was that of peace and contentment, only to be forced
back into the harsh light of mortality. She was returned to things as they were except for the fact
that she is now permanently different, just by her experience of her sacrifice. I don't think that she is
less than human, she is different than human as what category does a slayer that was a rotting
corpse but now is reborn, fit? As for Spike finding her less than human because of the chip, we can
only wait til that one is explained. Is she lacking a soul? Is she a modern St. Joan? Or is she a
demon? Buffy has known the ultimate sacrifice, she has known what happens when she ultimately
dies..I think getting used to the sensations of this reality just may take some getting used to. Unless
Willows spell went drastically wrong she is human, she just isn't used to it yet.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: She came back wrong (speculation) -- maddog, 08:53:44 12/20/01 Thu
I can't completely agree that this isn't the Buffy we all know and love...while I can see what you're
saying what I also see is her trying to protect her friends' feelings as much as possible, caring for
friends when she can, and handling the Dawn rescueing...I wonder if it were really JUST the Slayer
would she still do these things. Or would she be more self oriented...I mean, Spike did say that the
reason she was still around, not dead in the line of duty, was because of her ties to the world...do you
think "the slayer" would really care about her ties? I'm inclined to think not...but this
Buffy does...so I'd have to disagree with you, at least in part, there.
I think it's about time we hit the grey areas Angel's been dealing with...Angel was supposed to be the
more adult oriented show anyway...and while many teens still watch Buffy, the characters are
halfway through college...the storylines should become more mature.
I do like your comments on the "us" and "them" thing...because Buffy's not
the only one who's faultering on that line...Spike's coming in from the other side...and Willow's
having her own issues with it. So that could very well be a theme for much of this season. And lastly
I see no big signs of a "big bad" but I wouldn't count out our new favorite magic dealer,
Rack.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Did "Tabula Rasa" give a clue? (Spoiler) + BIG QUESTION... -- Darby, 10:54:05
12/20/01 Thu
My semester's over and I have too much time on my hands...
There has been a fair amount made here from TR about Spike / William - how the amnesia spell
seems to have extracted more of human William than the demon merged into Spike. Didn't the same
thing happen to Buffy? What remained was a very human Buffy, not all that different from the
early-season Buffy (except sisterly). It seems that, notwithstanding the "soul," whatever
that fuzzy-logic concept is, the human remains in the vampire and the human definitely remains in
our Slayer.
This begs another QUESTION - which would you rather have as an afterlife - an amorphous floating
existence, happy but detached, or a continuity of your personality subjugated to a great extent by
some demon entity? I like the idea of a lot of "me" on the next level, I think of the 2
choices I'd take the vampire life...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> I'll take a vampiric existence -- vampire hunter D, 17:49:48 12/20/01 Thu
Any vamps out there who can turn me?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> No, she came back right and she came back Restless -- darrenK, 12:06:49 12/20/01 Thu
I've been meaning to make a bunch of my own speculation into a thread, so I'll keep this short and
sadly incomplete.
But, I think that we're being duped. It's Spike's opinion that she came back "wrong." And
only Spike's opinion.
She's come back unsure. And, interestingly enough she's come back restless, literally so. But then
again, that's only appropriate, right?
Buffy has died twice and nearly died once (at the end of season 3 when she was "drained"
by Angel). After each of these events, she's come back STRONGER. Why?
Last season, the first Slayer told her that "death is her gift," and, that "the slayer
forges strength from pain." But what about strength from death?
Even without death, Buffy is a most unusual Slayer, a slayer who's successor (and successor's
successor) has already been called.
And, she's OLD FOR A SLAYER! Does the Slayer essence become stronger with time? Or with
damage to the human body?
We were told in Restless that Buffy doesn't know what she is, or what is to come.
Maybe she'll be the first slayer to become pure Slayer, like the first slayer...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: No, she came back right and she came back Restless -- TMZ, 13:19:31 12/20/01
Thu
Are you suggesting that there is no "Buffy soul" per se, but rather what makes Buffy is
the combination of the Slayer soul and human experience? If that's what you mean, it's a VERY
interesting thought.
It would suggest that growing up with the human experience would formulate and in essence
"taint" the pure slayer aspect of her. This could also apply to Spike and his
"tainted" demon as well.
In other words, Buffy = Slayer soul + vessel + human interaction ?
It would help explain the degree and variety vampires as well - Spike = demon + vessel + human
interaction
Whereas the newly reanimated Buffy undergoes the same experience as a turned vampire - in death
the "taint" is stripped away, and thus when soul or demon occupies (or in Buffy's case
reoccupies) the vessel, they lose a great deal of their humanity with only what the body remembers
as its template.
If that's not what you meant, then maybe I'm just on crack.
--TMZ
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[> [> [> Re: No, she came back right and she came back Restless -- darrenK, 16:19:13
12/20/01 Thu
It's close to what I mean. Truthfully, I hadn't let that part of my theory get so developed, but what
you've said dovetails fairly closely with what I'm thinking.
And that is that we have every reason to believe Buffy isn't precisely human. That the Slayer is
something wild, supernatural and feral.
That's what we saw in Restless.
And the Slayer, who starts off as a fairly human girl, becomes possessed by whatever the Slayer is
when she is "called." I often thought that "called" was a strange euphemism
anyway. Does the a Slayer really get called? By who? How? Does someone flip a switch?
Or does a young girl with the right characteristics get chosen as the perfect vessel for the whatever
the Slayer is? Wouldn't this explain how the Slayers share memories?
If that's so, then perhaps the human recedes over time, or is burned through?
I do know that there have been plenty of teasing hints about what the Slayer is. In Restless, when
the first Slayer tells Buffy that she doesn't know what she is, or what's to come? Then in Buffy vs.
Dracula, Dracula tells Buffy that her power is rooted in darkness.
So, for Buffy to have come back "wrong," and for whatever that means to be different
from whatever the story is with the origins of the Slayer, would be confusing and inprobable.
I think these questions lead down the same path. dK
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Different Theory -- Spike Lover, 14:50:22 12/24/01 Mon
Okay, I think to a certain degree you are quibbling about word choice.
Buffy is not a vampire. But is she a zombie? No, she does not limp. I prefer a simplier explanation. If
the definition of a human a biped mammal that is ruled by a set of laws, than Buffy's resurrection
has broken those laws.
What I mean is if I saw someone I knew had died 3-4 months ago, was embalmed, buried, etc., (not
cyro-frozen for future doctors to thaw out and cure, etc.), the first thing I would do is scream. No way
in my mind would I believe that they were human, no matter what they said or how they acted or
how anyone else explained it, simply because that person would have "broken" the laws
of nature that all humans live by.
It would be the same for a vampire. According to the mythologies, vampires have certain
characteristics and certain limitations. If a vampire is suddenly able to have other characteristics or
is no longer limited by certain traditional laws or criteria, then by definition, it is not a
vampire.
Thus, because Buffy has broken the laws of death that govern humans, the definition of
"human" no longer really applies. If Spike's chip is somehow capable of distinguishing
"humans", then it is going to register the difference. Does that mean that Buffy came
back "wrong". Well, I would say "different". He was trying to make a point
when he said it.
Speculations on Watchers -- NazgulsBane, 23:50:23 12/19/01 Wed
Hello -- this is my first post to this forum, so please be gentle. There is a mildly spoilery reference to
the events of season 6 (seen several episodes ago in the US) contained in the first question.
Presumably Giles kept a Watcher's Diary up until the death of Buffy last spring, and presumably
that diary is now part of the Watchers' Council archives, available to future watchers to help their
Slayers.
1) Do you think that Giles started a new diary (or added to the existing one) when Buffy was brought
back? If so, by returning to England this season, has he shirked his duty to the Council and future
Slayers (and possibly thereby endangered said future Slayers) by leaving Buffy's postmortem
adventures un-chronicled?
2) Each slayer appears to have an active watcher, who trains the Slayer as well as watches (and
records). Do you think there are passive watchers who only watch and record? I'm thinking of
something like the watch apparently placed upon Faith while she was in her coma.
3) Do you think Buffy could currently be under surveillance by the Watcher's Council from such a
passive watcher? There is no doubt that having died twice has hardly slowed her down. She is still
fighting the good fight. That alone makes her experiences worthy of record, and as she observed, the
Watchers' Council these days is "pretty much just watching Masterpiece Theatre"
otherwise.
4) If there are passive watchers, would they be on-site people, or would the Watcher’s Council
perhaps leave a hidden camera? In the magic Shop? In Spike’s crypt? After all, Spike was the topic of
one Watchers’ thesis, and is the only known vampire unable to hunt humans, and who appears to be
choosing atypical goals for himself because of that.
Tthe Watchers' Council has made itself redundant, at least for the nonce, if it regards its primary
purpose as controlling the Slayer. It seems to me that at least part of its job is to keep those
Watchers' Diaries, because they may help future Slayers.
On the other hand, maybe a good part of their job (the part they don't tell the Slayers) is that what
they are watching for is a Slayer who turns her not inconsiderable powers away from demon-slaying
and towards a power-play against humans (a la Faith -- she can't have been the first Slayer to
realize that her extraordinary powers can be used for more than slaying vampires).
Just some random thoughts and questions,
NazgulsBane
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[> Re: Speculations on Watchers -- Monster Blues, 02:34:03 12/20/01 Thu
Personally I have always felt we really don't know much about the Watchers except the handful
members we have seen, and those have been too lopsided toward being a-holes except Giles. I just
don't agree the whole council would be full of people like that. I've always envisioned them to being
similar to the Watchers from Highlander--recording everything they could about slayers, demons,
magick, etc. The slayer would only be one part (an important one of course) of an immense effort to
keep evil at bay.
Also I tend to think there is a mystical connection between Watchers like Giles and their slayers.
After re-watching the ep with Buffy going to the desert Giles said he had to transfer his
guardianship to the guide that Buffy needed to talk to. I think this relationship is part of what Giles
referred to in an earlier season about Watchers being in pain when their slayer is killed.
Anyway, of course any ancient group like that would have divisions between members (Millennium's
Roosters & Owls comes to mind) that would lead to group shifts now and then, but I don't think
slayers in the long run would fare well without them. Though some like Quentin Travers think they
should dominate the slayer I really think its a 2 way street, both need each other if the world is to be
safe.
So yeah, though we probably won't see it I wouldn't doubt for a second that Buffy (Faith too) is being
watched by someone.
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[> Re: Speculations on Watchers -- maddog, 08:33:38 12/20/01 Thu
I don't think Faith had a watcher for when she was in her coma...technically Wesley was her
watcher, but he gave up after being such a little wimp at the end of season 3. I think that nurse was
just an employee of the WC and her only duty was to report to them if/when she woke up. I don't
think "passive" is a word you'd use for watchers. Giles was about as passive as you get
for one and that's because of the relationship that had formed between him and Buffy. He often let
her run the show. But I still can agree that there's possibly someone out there keeping an eye on
Buffy. Making sure there are no more Glory type incidents. It's not like they can do anything for
Faith unless they want to break her out of jail.
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[> [> Re: Speculations on Watchers -- yabyumpan, 09:56:05 12/20/01 Thu
"It's not like they can do anything for Faith unless they want to break her out of jail." I
wonder why they are keeping her in jail, esp as, during the summer at least, there was no active
Slayer. In Checkpoint, it was made pretty clear that their powers extend into the realms of
government/officialdom; they could have had Giles's green card taken away and had him thrown out
of the country.
from Psyche's site.
BUFFY: Can they really do the stuff they threatened? Kick you out the country?
GILES: In a heartbeat. (Takes off his glasses, takes out a handkerchief and begins cleaning his
glasses) See, the rough stuff, they're all right out there, a bit ham-handed, but they get it done, but,
uh ... this stuff, the, uh, bureaucracy, the pulling of political strings, they're the best in the world.
They can kill you with the stroke of a pen. Poncy sods.
By Faith giving herself up in Ats "Sanctuary", she has shown that she wants to reform,
I'm sure the WC council could get her out if they wanted to, I wonder why they chose to leave the
world without an active Slayer.
Intervention Query for the Detail-Obsessed -- MRFH, 06:33:18 12/20/01 Thu
After watching Intervention last night, I noticed that Kelly Donovan is listed in the end credits. For
those who do not know, KD is the twin brother of Nicholas Brendan (Xander) and guest-starred as
"Suave Xander" in The Replacement. So, do any of you know what KD was doing in
Intervention? Is it possible that ND had to take a day off and let his brother stand in for him? If so,
that makes me wish *I* had a twin, so I could send her to work for me.
If you have any info about this, I'd love to hear it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Intervention answer for the Detail-Obsessed -- vampire hunter D, 08:57:17 12/20/01
Thu
Kelly did play "Double Xander" in "Intervention". Why