May 2001 posts

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June 2001


My Thoughts On The Gift -- Kerri, 13:49:32 05/23/01 Wed

Wow! That was a really fantastic episode!!! The ending was somewhat
predictable, but I think that is part of what made it so great- everything
really fit together at the end. First the Buffy/ Faith dream two years ago,
and the refrence to the Robert Frost poem-"miles to go untill I sleep."
Buffy had responsibilities and she couldn't give up, she had miles to go.
Now she is "sleeping."

About what the first slayer/spirit guide told Buffy, "death is your gift" I
was wondering-is death a gift for Dawn or for Buffy. It may be a gift that
Buffy gives to her sister-sacrificing her life so that Dawn can live. On the
other hand it is a gift to Buffy-she doesn't have to experience the pain of
living without her sister-which as Spike said wouls destroy Buffy. Death
will bring Buffy peace-going back to what Spike told Buffy in Fool For Love.

I had one small problem with the last scene-which don't get me wrong I
loved. When Buffy is saying her last words to Dawn the camera moves off them
and we don't hear what she says until later, and we don't see the
expressions on their faces. While I did like hearing Buffy's parting
words-which were fantastic and my new favorit qoute from the show-ehile we
see the reaction of her friends, I really wanted to see Buffy and Dawn's
faces as Buffy spoke. I think that a great deal of emotion was taken away by
not seeing the faces of the two sisters. While the scene was tremendously
sad and I began to cry when I rewatched it I think that what really would
have made it heartwrenching and would have helped us to understand the
characters better would have been toi see their faces. However, I still
loved the scene and Buffy's final words.

The ending was great! I know some people were disappointed but I thought it
was perfect for Buffy to sacrafice herself for Dawn. The only thing about
Buffy dying that I really didn't like is how bringing her back will almost
undermine what happened with Joyce. There was such a big deal about death
being final and not bringing people back to life that I think Joss will
really have to come up with something amazing to explain Buff's return-and I
have no doubt he will!

I think it will actually make for great character developement to see how
Buffy is changed by the experience-what new knowledge and enlightenment she
gains.

I liked that Willow went to Angel-I would have liked to see his reaction to
hearing that Buffy was dead, and I really hope that they will address that
again next season.

The first scene was really good and worked really well to show the audience
how far Buffy has come. At first it's the old Buffy-joking, trying to make
light of being the slayer, but at the end there is a somber tone in her
voice that has come from her experience. Also, Buffy saying how she's just a
normal girl, but she proves herself to be anything but normal. Like Giles
says-she's a hero!

I have to say I liked seeing the Ripper. It was an interesting character
developement for Giles, and we really saw some of his dark side in the Gift.
It also showed how Buffy couldn't take an innocent life.

Well, that's all for now-I can't wait to see what Joss will do with this
one! How do you think he'll bring Buffy back?

I have to say that was maybe the best Buffy I've ever seen!

~Kerri

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[> Trusting Joss -- Humanitas, 14:39:43 05/23/01 Wed

I have to say that I hate the fact that Buffy died. Not that it wasn't the
perfect ending for the epsiode and the season's story arc - it was.
Everything has been leading up to this, and Buffy's death was the logical
conclusion. Despite this, I have two problems:

The first problem is that I know there is a season 6, and that SMG is under
contract to play Buffy, so her death doesn't have the poignancy that it
ought to have. It was moving, yes, but it should have been absolutely
heartbreaking, and it wasn't, because I have no (well, not as much) sense of
loss. I was more affected by Joyce's death, because I figured that the rules
would not be bent for her.

The other problem is that I can't see any good way to bring her back.
Anything I can come up with cheapens her sacrifice unbearably. If this were
a comic book, or a daytime soap opera, that would be fine. I hold BtVS to a
higher standard, mostly because it generally rises to one.

Having said all this, I still have faith that next season will be up to par.
I trust Joss to pull it off. After all, he managed the Buffybot, and none of
us thought he would. I was sure that could only be bad. May I always be
wrong in this particular way!

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[> [> Re: Trusting Joss -- Shiver, 16:32:55 05/23/01 Wed

I've been thinking the same thing all day. When Buffy stabbed Angel and sent
him to Hell, I was weepy for days. Because I hadn't read any spoilers (grin)
and I didn't know for sure he was coming back next season. But I know Buffy
isn't going to really stay dead ... so it makes all the rest of it seem so
empty. Spike and Willow's grief, and all the rest - I want to yell at the TV
and say, well she's coming back, dummies ... the only stirrings of emotion I
had during the ep were when Buffy said "I wish my mom was here ...." now
that was sad.

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[> [> [> Maybe I'm a big softie, but -- Masquerade, 16:38:43 05/23/01 Wed

personally I sobbed the first time and this morning when I re-watched, not
because she was dead, but because she was willing to die. It was such a
touching and heroic thing and I couldn't stand seeing her sister and friends
in pain like that. Spike crying about killed me! OK, I also cry at some
credit card commercials about home and family and dogs and that, but...

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[> [> [> [> Buffy's sacrafice -- Kerri, 16:43:19 05/23/01 Wed

Maybe bringing Buffy back cheapens her death as humanities said, but it
certainly doesn't cheapen her sacrafice-she still gave up her life for Dawn
and the world

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[> [> [> [> Join the Softie Club -- Solitude1056, 17:20:20 05/23/01 Wed

The ones that got me were Dawn & Spike, not Buffy. I mean, Buffy's the hero.
She chooses this, even when she says she's not choosing it... when push
comes to shove, she goes that extra mile. It's her purpose, and she embraces
it. But Dawn's new to this game, and Spike - well, Spike's supposed to be a
bad boy, a killer, and Buffy's worst nightmare. Instead he's trying to tell
Dawn he's sorry for not saving her, in that split second before he's tossed
off the edge, and Dawn's screaming for Doc not to do it. And at the end, it
was Spike's and Dawn's reactions that got me the most - the most jaded
experienced, even cynical character ... and the newest, naive, child-like
but wizened character, both equally distraught and in pain at the fact that
they were both helpless to prevent the circumstances that made Buffy choose,
yet again, to do The Hero Thing. Now that got me hard.

Ok, I'll stop going on about it, since this time (yay!) I've got it to
watch, again, once I get back from out of town. Yippee. Btw, does anyone
know if the WB is going to show reruns this summer, or if this season was it
until the show's syndicated?

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Join the Softie Club -- rowan, 18:45:10 05/23/01 Wed

"Instead he's trying to tell Dawn he's sorry for not saving her, in that
split second before he's tossed off the edge, and Dawn's screaming for Doc
not to do it. And at the end, it was Spike's and Dawn's reactions that got
me the most - the most jaded experienced, even cynical character ... and the
newest, naive, child-like but wizened character, both equally distraught and
in pain at the fact that they were both helpless to prevent the
circumstances that made Buffy choose, yet again, to do The Hero Thing. Now
that got me hard. "

Me too. This was the most emotional moment of the ep for me. If I live to be
100, I don't think I will ever forget the agonized look on Spike's face, the
tears in his eyes, Dawn's fear, her instinctive move towards him, Spike's
whispered, 'no', followed by Dawn's scream of the same word. I can't believe
how much was conveyed without words by the looks on two actors' faces -- and
in such a short period of time. Everything of their love for each other, an
acknowledgement of each other's death (I believe Dawn thought the fall would
kill Spike), an acknowledgement of the apocalypse to come, and the guilt
over a failure that now Buffy would have to fix somehow.

Wow.

Willow telling Tara she would always find her got me too. I used alot of
tissues last night.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Join the Softie Club -- Rufus, 19:13:55 05/23/01 Wed

Spike always wanted to slip in and have himself a good day, he finally got
what he said he wanted only to find it the worst day and loss of his
unlife...his reaction was extreme...his facade of the big bad finally
dissolved in grief....

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Be careful what you wish for...it might come true, hmm?
-- rowan, 19:24:43 05/23/01 Wed

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Be careful what you wish for...it might come
true, hmm? -- Rufus, 21:44:15 05/23/01 Wed

In FFL Spike was so busy putting on the big Discovery Channel version of his
life that he pissed Buffy off in the end. He couldn't resist the temptation
to show her that he would be there when she lost her will to live. Her death
wish. What he said he wished for came true except for the fact that he never
really wanted that by the time FFL came about. He didn't truly know what he
wanted...he only knew that he wanted Buffy and felt a need to impress
her...only to put his foot in his mouth. His fear of being humiliated kept
him from being genuine with Buffy about who he had become and how he really
felt. Pride screwed up a chance for Buffy to see him a different way. The
only save that night was when he comforted Buffy on the back steps.
Unfortunatley she was in too much pain to realize just how much the big bad
had started to change.
Those big bad words about being there when Buffy died came true. Not only
can he feel guilt that he couldn't protect Dawn the way he wanted but now he
has to live with his words about a good day. I bet he would love to take
them back, and I believe he would have taken her place if he could have.
I find it so ironic that Spike was busy shadowing and attempting to kill the
girls that were the embodiment of what he wished he was. Does he get it? The
most efflugent thing he ever wanted for himself he snuffed out every chance
he got until he found Buffy who showed him what a hero really is. He always
wanted something glistening, and glowing....and there are the Summers girls,
Buffy who has love brighter than the flame, and Dawn who is pure green
glowing energy. What will he do next? He has a promise to keep.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Be careful what you wish for...it might come
true, hmm? -- squireboy, 10:51:03 05/24/01 Thu

Excellent points, Rufus (bonus points for working in "effulgent" :D). I
especially like your reminder about Spike's promise. He may have made it
assuming he was about to die, he always figured he'd go down fighting, but
alas, he lived, and now he has to be Dawn's protector. A real commitment, I
wonder if he will be up to the challenge.

Season 6 looks very promising. Naturally, I can't wait. :)

squireboy

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Be careful what you wish for...it might
come true, hmm? -- rowan, 19:39:21 05/24/01 Thu

I don't know if I can quite express this, but I'll try.

I think that Spike and Dawn are just totally in love with each other. Not in
a romantic/sexual way, but in a Buffy/Angel soulmate way (again, without the
romantic/sexual aspect). I have never seen two people look at each other
quite the way those two did up on the tower before Doc threw Spike off.

I have to admit, the idea of a B/S ship intrigued me at the start of S5. And
I'm glad that they're relationship is improving and maturing, because it
provides alot of opportunity to explore shades of grey not within Buffy's
other friendships.

But that storyline is not even close to as compelling as Spike and Dawn.
They have become such a couple in my mind...just as I think of Xander/Anya
and Willow/Tara as a unit, I think of Spike/Dawn the same way. I think I'll
be really shocked if they aren't joined at the hip in S6. I'm not really
sure if Joss intended this (or perhaps I'm overemphasizing it). Maybe it's
just the chemistry between MT and JM that does it.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Be careful what you wish for...it might
come true, hmm? -- squireboy, 20:07:26 05/24/01 Thu

No offense, rowan, but um, ewww.
I think the evolution of Spike this year has been fascinating and there's no
doubting that he and Dawn have a bond. I know you're struggling to express
it, but I don't think it's as close as you're getting at. I wonder what joss
has in mind for Spike next year as he takes full centre stage as the major
male figure, with ASH moving to recurring and Xander's quirkiness being
written out to demonstrate maturity/growth. I'd hate to think that joss
intends Spike to be Giles the Second and I hold out hope that there is some
resolution some time for the deus ex machina chip in his head.
Spike used to get all the clever lines. Now he gets all the good scenes and
JM is taking full advantage. He was pretty amazing this season, especially
in the finale. For Spike to be most effective though, I think there has to
be a certain amount of Monster first, Man second for him to truly work.
Otherwise, he's just a tough Xander with headaches.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Be careful what you wish for...it
might come true, hmm? -- rowan, 20:35:26 05/24/01 Thu

"No offense, rowan, but um, ewww."

Hey, I told you, I did not mean sexually. That would be disgusting given
both the characters and actors age differences. Let me be totally clear on
that issue. I'm not suggesting Lolita here.

I happen to believe reincarnation. Sometimes, you instantly bond with
someone, even if there's a great age difference between you, or some
difference in circumstance that seems like it would normally preclude a
close friendship. I always feel in those situations that it's souls that
have travelled through time together before finding each other again.

I think that's how I feel about Spike and Dawn.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Be careful what you wish for...it
might come true, hmm? -- Max, 18:37:53 05/25/01 Fri

Buffy was 16 when she met Angel.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Be careful what you wish for...it
might come true, hmm? -- verdantheart, 09:13:22 05/25/01 Fri

The Spike/Dawn relationship has gotten a lot of attention and I think that
this is to a large extent due to the gifts of both actors (amazing, indeed).
Both make their roles more vivid. Put them together in a scene and you
multiply that effect. (I suppose that's why some--not you, rowan!--have
carried this toward eww-land.)

The Spike character was made more and more complex by the additions of pain
and conflicts. Mr Marsters made the transition believable and enabled us to
identify with Spike to the point that we can forgive his stalking and foray
into bot-play. Now he's in for a huge guilt trip. I think the man/monster
conflict will be around indefinitely.

Just my 2 cents.

- vh

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Amazing how all 3 Summers women captured his
heart, hmm? -- rowan, 19:32:14 05/24/01 Thu

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yup..................:):):) -- Rufus, 21:39:48
05/24/01 Thu

He couldn't help himself...but after he made that deal with Buffy in season
two he was a goner...the ep when he had cocoa with Buffys mom was
priceless...he sounded like he could have been one of Buffys friends...when
he tried to lie about being in a band with Buffy....flash forward to bitty
Buffy and you can see this guy is stuck with the Summers girls, like it or
not(and I think he likes). Now we only have to wonder if he will keep his
promise or will he go into a cycle of destruction? Will he ever revert back
to his evil ways....I don't know...and I love the uncertainty.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Too true! -- rowan, 14:05:35 05/25/01 Fri

You know, when you put it that way (looking back on it), you really do have
to say, "boy, that poor guy is a goner and he doesn't even know it yet."

I'm hoping that Spike will channel his guilt in productive ways and won't
succumb to self-pity. I'd like to see my boy earn some respect next season
and not be a whipping boy for every other character (God, sounds like
Xander's problem...).

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[> [> [> [> [> Buffy reruns on WB on Wed at 9:00 -- Jen C., 18:45:53
05/23/01 Wed

Starting June 6th, I believe. Angel reruns on Mon @ 9:00 starting June 4.

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[> [> [> [> Guess it's time to hand out the hankies.....:) -- Rufus,
18:27:49 05/23/01 Wed

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[> [> [> [> Re: Maybe I'm a big softie, but -- OnM, 21:19:56 05/23/01 Wed

Two things:

1 > People, keep in mind that there is *us*-- you, me, all of us who live
our lives as devoted fans and post at these boards and hang on every
spoiler-- and then these are just regular, normal viewers of the show (yes,
they exist, and in great quantity).

We just assume everyone is like us, but they aren't. We knew in advance what
was going to happen, they very likely did not. *BUFFY is DEAD* to these
people. They don't expect her to return. The WB kept referring to the show
as the 'Series Finale'. They quite possibly no nothing about UPN picking up
the program, or that SMG has two more years on her contract or any of that
stuff.

You think you're depressed over this plot turn? How many other TV shows can
you recall where the writers killed off not *a* character, but *THE*
character, the one the show is *named after*???

2 > As to my reaction, I was mildly bummed (and again, I *knew* what was
going to happen for 99.5% certain right after that incredible sequence that
opened the show, where they breezed through clips from all the past seasons)
immediately after the show. Later in the evening, after sacking out, I had
trouble getting to sleep. When I woke up this morning (much earlier than my
norm) I actually felt bad, like there was a pressure in my chest, an ache. I
realized that the ending was still in my thoughts, and that I was feeling
very depressed. I was up and around for over an hour before it went away.

***I have a clear understanding of the difference between reality and
fantasy***, I was spoiled pretty badly as to what was going to happen, but
it was like some post-traumatic stress thing had taken hold of me.

So all I can say is, they better damn well bring her back, or I'm gonna be
one very unhappy old geezer! We need and love our heroes, they make life
worth living because they are what we wish we could be.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Need for Heroes -- Brian, 09:16:44 05/24/01 Thu

OnM, I couldn't agree with you more. We need our heroes, (Do we have any in
real life?) and Buffy is a great one. I know I'm not ready to give up my
weekly fix that takes me away from the dull routine of life into a magical
world. Two more years, and maybe movies? One can only hope!
Maybe someone will write a book - Everything I know about Life I learned
from BtVS?

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[> [> [> [> [> Not the first time a main character was killed in a season
finale, but definitely the best... -- Rob, 09:28:09 05/24/01 Thu

The only other show I can recall that killed off its main character at a
season finale was "Xena: Warrior Princess." At the end of the fourth season,
Xena and Gabrielle, her sidekick, were crucified by the Romans and died.
They were brought back by a holy man and an angel, and it turned out Xena
had died only to be reborn again, with a baby, immaculately conceived. Not
that this has anything to do with how Buffy will return, but I just wanted
to point out that, even though I adored "The Gift" and the entire plot, it
isn't the first time it's been done. I do hope, however, that the resolution
of Buffy will be much more satisfying. Despite the fact that it's a fantasy,
Buffy is always logical in following its own rules. I'm sure Joss knows a
way to explain Buffy's return, and still follow his rule in "Forever" that
you can't ressurect the dead, and if you do it will not be the same person
you loved, but a zombie, or at least something will be wrong with them.
Xena, on the other hand, is a fantasy show that has very few rules, and has
characters die and return with very little logical explanation. That's why
when Xena returned, I excepted it, besides the fact that when a minor
character dies, they never try to bring them back, but if Xena dies, they
do. I always thought that was a double standard and not competely ethically
fair. Buffy, on the other hand, does not break its own rules without an
examination of the morality/ethics/etc.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not the first time a main character was killed in a
season finale, but definitely the best... -- Anthony8, 17:04:58 05/24/01 Thu

Actually, if there was a Hall of Fame for cheap character
kill-offs/resurrections, I have two in mind that may be before your time (at
least with regards to first-run episodes). Back in the 80's, there were two
really popular shows that brought back dead characters and, lost a
substantial segment of loyal viewers as a result.

First there was "Magnum, P.I." a show starring Tom Selleck (recently of
"Friends") about an ex-Vietnam War marine/vet-turned-private detective and
his circle of former war buddies. The show was at the top of its ratings
after a number of years so the producers decided to go out on top. In the
series finale (at least as far as everyone knew at the time), Magnum was
shot and dies. The last scene had him leaving his body and walking off into
the proverbial "white light." It actually wasn't as corny as it sounds.
Well, there was such a fervent fan campaign to un-cancel the series that,
voila, it was back on the air the next season. Magnum was miraculously
revived on the operating table and his "soul" was sucked back from the light
and into his body. After the return episode, the series died a slow two year
death until it was cancelled due to poor ratings.

The all-time infamous character resurrection, however was that of Bobby
Ewing on the primtime soap "Dallas." Patrick Duffy who played Bobby decided
to move on to other projects, so he was killed off in the series season
finale. After a year out in the wilderness, the actor decided to return to
the show. Now "Dallas" had a devoted following and great ratings at the time
and his initial departure from the show had no effect on that. After a year
of well developed story arcs that required consistent viewer attention, the
character is alive and well and taking a shower in the comfort of his own
bathroom. His wife pulls back the shower curtain, and to her relief, Bobby's
death and the entire previous season's plotlines were only a bad dream!
Needless to say, that commenced the ratings decline which eventually killed
the show.

Given the above, I'm glad that JW had this death and resurrection storyline
pre-planned 2 years ago. At least he is not betraying the viewers by
springing something absolutely ridiculous on them. The Buffyverse requires a
certain extra suspension of disbelief on our part, but we participate gladly
because of the metaphysical rewards. We have already experienced the
permanency of physical death with "The Body." As discussed in other posts,
the parental figure must die for the Hero to take the next step in her
evolution. Her next step in this journey was her own spiritual death and
(next season) rebirth. We are supposed to identify with the Hero and take
the journey with her. Consequently, the impact of her mother's death as
opposed to her own should parallel what we would feel under similar
circumstances. Two entirely different types of loss with two completely
different results. And very well done in each case.

And that is our moment in television history for the day.

A8

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[> [> [> [> [> Well, I wasn't spoiled on the death, but I knew the UPN scoop
before hand -- Masquerade, 11:08:33 05/24/01 Thu

I know as a Buffy fansite WebMistress, I will do what I can to get the word
out to fans, and will encourage other webmasters I know to do the same. I
already got one letter from a woman in Montreal who knew about the UPN
change but thought maybe that was a false Web-rumor after viewing the "WB
Series Finale" and seeing Buffy die.

BTW, any Montrealers know what station UPN shows appear on? I remember
seeing "Voyager" when I lived up there, but don't remember the station it
was on.

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Well, I wasn't spoiled on the death, but I knew the
UPN scoop before hand -- Nina, 20:46:43 05/24/01 Thu

I am from Montreal and "Voyager" is now on CFCF12. From what I can gather tv
stations here buy what they like and it doesn't matter from where they buy
it. I still don't know if I will get Buffy next year.

I'll cross my fingers and keep hoping I guess. :)

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[> [> Re: Trusting Joss -- Mindtrekker, 22:58:54 05/23/01 Wed

First, I have to say that I don't think you can blame the show for your
access to spoiler material. I didn't have any idea that SMG had signed a
contract or that the show was moving to another network. Having watched the
show in that context, I was depressed all day until I read the posts here
about next season. Had it been any more poignant, I might have tried to jump
into a gateway between worlds thingy or whatever it was.

Secondly, I don't think the fact that we know the hero will win is a
reasonable criticism of any story. We ALWAYS know the hero is going to
win..that's why a story is being told about them..you don't tell adventure
stories about losers. (Note that even though Buffy died, she did not lose)
The essense of good storytelling then is the ability of the storyteller to
take us to a deep dark place in which we can't see ahead .. so that even
though we know the hero will win, we nonetheless doubt the outcome. Joss is
an expert at this as you note when you say that you can't see how Buffy can
be brought back.

Frankly, I can't either and it seems like they've written out the characters
most closely linked to Buffy--her mother and Riley--which seems like a sign
that they intend to move on without her. So I'm still in that deep dark
place until Joss shows me the way out, and I can't believe I have to wait
three months for that. In that, lies the tension and the drama--not in the
actual outcome, which I hope is favorable.

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[> [> [> Re: Trusting Joss -- MKS, 09:22:07 05/24/01 Thu

Actually, the UPN premier will probably be in OCTOBER (according to Joss),
so you have FIVE months to wait. Have a nice day! :-)

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[> [> [> [> Re: Trusting Joss -- LoriAnn, 09:46:57 05/24/01 Thu

"Actually, the UPN premier will probably be in OCTOBER (according to Joss),
so you have FIVE months to wait. Have a nice day!"

Actually, Joss said this, "I don't know the date. I believe we're looking at
early October, but nothing's been set." So when will it be? The only piece
of information in here that isn't qualified in some way is "nothing's been
set."

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[> [> [> Whoo! Guess I'd better clarify... -- Humanitas, 10:33:36 05/24/01
Thu

First of all, let me say that I used plenty of tissues this ep. I'm a big
sucker for noble sacrifice, and going on knowing that you may well be going
to your death. All those little scenes of the gang getting ready, Spike and
Buffy, Xander and Anya, Buffy and Giles, etc. had me tearing up, and crying
right along with everyone else. Where do I sign up for that Softie Club? :)

Mindtrekker, you bring up some very valid points. I guess I was just hoping
that there would be a different solution, since we've seen major characters
die and come back on other shows before. Maybe that's just me going through
the 'anger' stage of the greiving process. ;) I certainly agree that it's
the tension of "how are they going to get out of this," as opposed to "are
they going to get out of this," that is facinating. They made such a big
deal about death being final this season, though, that the deep dark place
seems darker than usual. Joss is a fiend, and I trust him.

It's gonna be a long, long summer...

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[> Re: My Thoughts On The Gift -- darrenK, 17:07:55 05/23/01 Wed

You're right, it is a great episode. I tried rewatching it tonight and
realised during the "previously..." section that it would be too unbearably
painful.

As I wrote in another thread, I think it's purposeful that we didn't hear
Buffy's conversation with Dawn, just as it's purposeful that we didn't hear
Willow's conversation with Angel.

You see, I think it would spoil us for how Buffy comes back (if she's
actually dead). I think she's told Dawn something that will bring her back
and we are not to know for 3+ months. The wait is going to be a killer.

dK

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[> [> The power of silence -- Solitude0156, 17:23:26 05/23/01 Wed

Remember that Joss didn't let us hear what Buffy said to Dawn in the
hallway, about their Mom, either. It's almost as if he's giving them private
time, as sisters, even while onscreen. And so in some way, by having Buffy's
voiceover while she falls, it seemed (to me) as if she were whispering it
not in her sister's ears, but in mine. As if, somehow, we were supposed to
be experiencing that just-for-us that Dawn had experienced only a minute
before.

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[> [> [> Re: The power of silence -- rowan, 18:48:37 05/23/01 Wed

I loved how they shot the discovery of Buffy's body. First, we see the core
SG -- Giles, Xander (holding Anya), and Willow (holding Tara). The camera
gives them private time to feel their grief.

Then Spike is introduced -- a newer part of the group, but now truly part
('We few, we happy few, we band of brothers, for he today who sheds his
blood with me shall be my brother, be he ne'er so vile, this day shall
gentle his condition' -- good old Joss pulling Shakespeare in!).

Then each character gets some private time for their individual reactions,
and finally Dawn appears.

Powerful.

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[> [> [> [> Cinematically speaking (or more accurately, viewing)... -- OnM,
21:37:50 05/23/01 Wed

...you could form a trilogy of *Fool for Love*, *The Body/Forever* and *The
Gift*, and if you think about it, they essentially tell the whole story of
the season.

These eps are also the most 'cinematic' of all the seasons eps, not a
coincidence, methinks. They are also the most passionate, in the terms that
Angel spoke of it so long ago.

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[> [> Re: My Thoughts On The Gift -- Kerri, 19:31:15 05/23/01 Wed

But we did hear their conversation-that's what we heard at the end-I was
just saying I would have liked to see their faces as it was said

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[> [> [> Re: My Thoughts On The Gift -- OnM, 21:51:02 05/23/01 Wed

It's a judgement call on the part of the writer/director (same person, in
this case), but I think that if you go back and watch the scene in the
future, you may come to find that the method he chose was actually more
powerful.

Those words were Buffy's dying words-- she just didn't make the final leap
off the platform yet-- it would be a physical impossibility to speak to Dawn
while falling through the portal. But we, the audience, need to hear them
*as she is dying*, for they are words of hope, and that's the point-- she
gives her life to give dawn-- and by extension, us-- hope. The events need
to coincide.

Also, there was the synchonicity between the much earlier scene of silence
when she told Dawn of her mother's death (moment of utter despair) to when
she uttered her final words to Dawn at the top of the platform (the gift of
hope).

I really can't think of a single fault in that sequence, or any way to do it
better. You've probably heard me use the phrase 'Perfect Moment of Cinema'
in my Classic Movie column. This was one of those.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: My Thoughts On The Gift -- mundusmundi, 14:47:31 05/24/01
Thu

Agreed. It was an interesting stylistic choice. Most directors probably
would've gone the other way.

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Even the music was perfect (not too sappy) -- Anthony8,
16:26:35 05/24/01 Thu

In scenes of this type, the background score can make or break the dramatic
impact. The music playing as Buffy has her moment of clarity and dives into
the portal had just the right amount of poignancy to put a finishing touch
on the perfection of the moment for me. The music sounded familiar (it may
have been used in another episode though I can't recall), but wasn't too
syrupy or even sad. It really captured the resolved calm of the Hero and the
sorrow and shock of separation you see in Dawn's face. Nice piece of work.

A8

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[> [> [> [> [> [> You're absolutely right, excellent point. The sound and
the visuals... -- OnM, 17:24:12 05/24/01 Thu

...become as one when everything is right, our brains process it as a single
emotional reaction of high intensity, even though the sources are entering
from two different sensory organs. Creating these moments is what seperates
the pros from the wannabes.

I've quoted/paraphrased this before, but it applies: From *Dune*-- "Each
sound has a thought".

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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Even the music was perfect (not too sappy) -- rowan,
19:45:45 05/24/01 Thu

The music was fantastic, and it was the same as what played while Dawn had
that incredible scene where she folded her clothes carefully on the chair &
tucked her shoes underneath (reminded me of how suicides prepare for death).

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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks, rowan. -- OnM, 06:43:01 05/25/01 Fri

I knew that action she was taking with the clothes and shoes was
significant, but I couldn't quite figure it out. Your enlightenment is
appreciated!


Mourning the dead -- Aelith, 14:10:02 05/23/01 Wed

Buffy will be dead for me and many others. I don't get UPN.

And my mourning will now double because I found this board 4 years too late.

I agree that Buffy is the mythic hero, just as Giles called her before
killing what's his name. This is the Sacrifice and Resurrection part of the
cycle.

*sigh*

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[> Re: Mourning the dead -- Rufus, 17:43:37 05/24/01 Thu

I can only hope that where you live that you may be able to see Buffy. If
you have a channel that gets programs like Voyager and Andomeda, you may
still get Buffy, if not there are ways around not getting UPN like a tape
exchange.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Thank you Rufus -- Aelith, 19:00:54 05/24/01 Thu

You give me hope. If my cable isn't pressured into getting UPN by this Fall,
I'll try your other suggestion. Mean while it looks like I have a lot of
reading to catch up on.

Oh and I appologies for a slight exaggeration. I've only had my computer
since last September.

Still......

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[> [> [> You are very welcome........:):) -- Rufus, 21:16:25 05/24/01 Thu

Keep coming back.....


That little nagging pinch of humanity -- Rufus, 14:11:32 05/23/01 Wed

We have discussed Ben at length and I have noticed how many people say he is
weak ect, but Glory had a point when she said this last night:

Glory(to Dawn): "What do you have against old Benjy?"

Dawn: "He's a monster. At least you're up front about it."

Glory: "Just don't be so hard on the boy. He just wants to live. Most guys
would do the same. Besides, he's probably the reason your sis and her little
cartoon pals are still alive. That little nagging pinch of humanity that
makes me go for the hurt instead of the kill. Lowering myself to trade blows
with the slayer when I should have just put my fist through her heart. It's
gotta be Ben."

Ben was weak at the end, he chose his life over the survival of humanity.
His fight with himself has been not noticed because we didn't see much of
it. Ben was an innocent who was created to be the vessel of a god. His life
was gone before it began. The fact he was a doctor did have meaning. It may
have been a bit for the pills, but I think that Ben did want to be part of
humanity, he just was never allowed to. His longing to live isn't new, his
choice of self over others isn't new either. But it was his contribution of
humanity to the god that deafeated Glory. Glory would have killed all of the
SG but it was Ben that held her back. Even though in the end he wimped out,
Ben did indirectly help the SG in ways they never knew. Ben gave Glory a
need to help others that she never would have had without Ben. Ben isn't a
hero in the usual sense, but he did contribute to defeating Glory with a
little nagging pinch of humanity.

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[> Spoilers in my post above -- Rufus, 14:12:52 05/23/01 Wed

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: That little nagging pinch of humanity -- Solitude1056, 16:19:16
05/23/01 Wed

And yet, at the same time, Giles recognized what Buffy didn't have time to
process: that despite Ben's insistence that he & Glory would go far away...
Glory would still come back for vengeance. There's nothing that indicates
she's no longer a God. To all indications, as a matter of fact, she's simply
now a God who's trapped here permanently. In that sense, in a wierd way,
killing Ben may have been an inverted act of mercy for Glory - a character
that, like Dawn, I respected at the end for at least being honest about her
motivations and intentions and attitude. That, and she provided some bizarre
humorous moments that made me laugh out loud: "say, did anyone know the
Slayer's a robot?"

As much as I don't like the idea of killing someone now because of their
potential for evil (as the Knights intended to do to Dawn), in Ben's case,
it's a lesser of two evils. To prevent the great risk of later harm, harm
must be done now. Giles made that choice. Yeah, it was an ugly choice and an
ugly consequence, but in his place? I would've done it, with just as little
satisfaction as Giles himself displayed.

Notice, too, that Giles didn't stab Ben, nor break his neck, nor any of the
multiple ways I'm sure the Ripper knows... he just suffocated Ben. It
occured to me, then, as it does now, that somehow Giles - at the same time
he had to be judge, jury, and executioner to relieve Buffy of the
responsibility later - was also protecting Buffy of the knowledge that this
choice had to be made. As far as the rest of the Scoobies will ever know
(I'm guessing), they will think that Glory allowed Ben to come forth when
she felt the body dying, and that Ben is the one who experienced the dying.

Ben was a character shrouded, and we never knew much about his history or
why he did what he did or how he came to be who he is. And we only have
hints of how he felt about it; pretty opaque, even by Joss' standards. So it
seems rather appropriate that his death was also one that will be hidden in
mystery, as far as the rest of the Scoobies are concerned.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Thoughts on... (*Gift* spoilers) -- OnM, 20:56:13 05/23/01 Wed

Giles smothers Ben/Glory, Buffy, while in her fugue state, smothers Dawn?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: That little nagging pinch of humanity -- Wiccagrrl, 22:44:05
05/23/01 Wed

Notice, too, that Giles didn't stab Ben, nor break his neck, nor any of the
multiple ways I'm sure the Ripper knows... he just suffocated Ben. It
occured to me, then, as it does now, that somehow Giles - at the same time
he had to be judge, jury, and executioner to relieve Buffy of the
responsibility later - was also protecting Buffy of the knowledge that this
choice had to be made. As far as the rest of the Scoobies will ever know
(I'm guessing), they will think that Glory allowed Ben to come forth when
she felt the body dying, and that Ben is the one who experienced the dying.

The thing with that is, though, that it leaves it looking like Ben died of
his injuries. Injuries Buffy inflicted (on Glory, yes, but still...) She
made the choice to spare him, because she couldn't bring herself to finish
him off. Giles was able to (and made, I think, the right decision) But, if
she had survived, would Giles have let Buffy think Ben had died
(inadvertantly) because of her actions? In Buffy's mind, I think she saw Ben
as being in a very similar situation to Dawn. She didn't know about Ben's
betrayal of Dawn, or about the Queller Demon. Would Giles have eventually
have had to tell her what really happened? Once the battle was over, would
she have accepted, maybe even been relieved, that Ben hadn't survived?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: That little nagging pinch of humanity -- Shiver, 16:35:47 05/23/01
Wed

I actually read that differently. Not that Ben's touch of humanity was
making Glory compassionate - but that it was making her more sadistic and
cruel. I think back to Glory's speech to Dawn in the prior ep about humanity
and how people all over were shooting up, shooting each other, suffering and
causing others to suffer. I think that Glory's remark about her little bit
of humanity was meant to reflect that viewpoint, and not that humanity was a
positive thing.


The nature of Glory -- Sam of Seneca, 14:20:27 05/23/01 Wed

I've wondered what Glory represents since the character appeared last year.
I believe she's a dramatic and essential component of the story and its
universe. But I also believe that the "creator" of Glory is saying something
else: I'm absolutely convinced that the person who originally "wrote" Glory
has had substantial experience with someone who suffers from Borderline
Personality Disorder. Every time she appears, and last night was no
exception, I am more certain of this. Any thoughts?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: The nature of Glory -- Rufus, 19:11:13 05/23/01 Wed

Would you like to tell me why you believe that Glory represents a borderline
personality as opposed to say a narcissistic personality disorder?

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[> [> Re: The nature of Glory -- Sam of Seneca, 20:32:17 05/23/01 Wed

Rage, "splitting," projection, poorly supported internal sense of self,
"sexualizing". . . . In a sense it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other,
though violent mood swings and character's gender indicate BPD is more
likely than NPD--at least as I read it.

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[> Re: The nature of Glory -- Mindtrekker, 22:41:30 05/23/01 Wed

I've been wondering if Glory doesn't perhaps represent the various threats
to the show's future? Just as Dawn perhaps represents each new day the show
continues to air.

Consider that Glory is a vain, self-absorbed being who feeds off the mental
energies of others. A television executive perhaps?

And why the name Glory?? That's an interesting question.

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[> [> Re: The nature of Glory -- Rufus, 22:48:51 05/23/01 Wed

Oh no, I never saw it that way...LOL....television executive.


Jackpot! (long) -- Solitude1056, 19:39:39 05/23/01 Wed

If you want to follow along, I found a nifty website here.

Basically, it helps you outline a hero's journey, using the classic steps as
defined by Campbell & his sort. (And yes, you can enter the character & her
life story, and it'll help you outline the story in a series of steps.) The
following are the basic steps, divided into three movements, and each step
includes the suggestions from the web page about how to
define/outline/identify the step. I've added notes of where I think each
step occured in the BtVS cycle, and wow... it lines up rather nicely, if you
think about. Any/all input is welcome! :)

DEPARTURE
1. The Call to Adventure
What stage of life is he or she in? What do you see coming next for this
person? What would cause the person to leave this stage, to "leave home"?
What is the person doing when the call comes? Is it an accident, a blunder,
something planned, or hoped for? Is it anticipated or dreaded?
Pre-season 1, Buffy receives Slayer spirit/calling.

2. Refusal of the Call
Does the hero refuse the call? If so, what motivates the refusal? Obligation
and duty, fear, a sense of inadequacy to take on the quest, a dread or
dislike of the task to be taken on? Is the person ready to leave home, to
accept adult status? If not, why?
Season 1-2.

3. Supernatural Aid
What special friends or helpers does the hero have? Does the hero receive
some magical help, advice, or talisman from someone wise and benevelont? Is
there someone who helps them prepare to leave on their journey? Is it a one
time assistance, or will the helper (or helpers) appear throughout the
journey? Is the helper an internal aspect of the hero?
Season 1-on. Specifically Angel, then later Whistler.

4. Crossing of the First Threshold
What world is being left; what world is being entered? What or who is
guarding the threshold? What obstacles must the hero overcome to truly begin
the journey? Limits of home or society, limits of personality, limits of
perception, physical limits? What events cause the person to cross the
threshold? What is the threshold and how does the person cross it?
Season 2. Angelus' death & Buffy's love as obstacle.

5. Belly of the Whale
Is the person ready to transform? Does he or she enter the belly of the
whale willingly, or is he or she thrust into or captured in that place? What
self is being left? The self of childhood? Of incomplete or unfulfilled
adulthood? An outgrown self? What self is the person moving toward? What
will symbolize this stage in the story?
Interlude between Season 2 & 3; Season 3.

INITIATION
1. The Road of Trials
Given this person's background and experience, what kinds of trials or
ordeals make sense for him or her? What would be truly challenging for this
person? What does the person fear and how will this fear be represented to
him or her? What does the person consider to be obstacles to progress or
growth? Does the person have some personality or character traits that will
be mirrored back to him or her in a challenging way? What strategies,
skills, insights, known or unknown strengths or talents, etc, does the
person use or develop to survive or resolve these trials? What assistance,
seen or unseen does the person have or receive to deal with these trials?
Season 4. Freshman year in college.

2. The Meeting with the Goddess
How will this step be represented in the story? Does the person have a soul
mate, an other half? Does an all loving god or goddess, or non-gendered but
supremely loving force make itself known to the person? Can the person
accept and/or identify with the ultimate creative/destructive nature of the
universe? Does the person begin to understand or experience the union of
opposites, for example spiritual/material, good/bad, male/female,
life/death, etc.
Restless. The first slayer (assuming that "supremely loving" does not
contradict "vicious killer").

3. Woman as the Temptress
Given this person's background and experience, what kinds of temptations
make sense for him or her? Is this person on a spiritual journey, will he or
she experience the temptations of the flesh? Are there habitual patterns of
thought or behavior that serve to undermine, or tempt the person from his or
her path?
Season 5. Glory, the deathwish.

4. Atonement with the Father (Mother)
How does the person resolve him or herself with the sources of control and
power in his or her life? What experiences mark the person as ready to take
on the new roles of his or her transformed self? What behaviors, attitudes,
relationships, dependencies, body parts, must be sacrificed to achieve this?

Season 5. Joyce's illness & death.

5. Apotheosis
Given this person's background and experience, what would heaven be for him
or her? What does this person know or experience now that is beyond good and
evil, male and female, life and death? Does the person give him or herself a
moment to bask in the glow of what has been achieved?
Season 5. Seeking peace/ending of fighting; knowledge that sister's love
overrules world's needs.

6. The Ultimate Boon
Given this person's background and experience, what would be the goal of his
or her quest? What is the ultimate boon for this person? Was there a stated
goal of the quest? If so has it changed? Has the person learned more or less
than he or she expected? What are the rewards of this person's journey? What
relationship does this person now have to his or her own immortality, gods,
or god-like figures?
End of Season 5. Buffy's death/coma/transformation, achieving end to
fighting thus peace.

Now you get to fill in the blanks for the next season...

RETURN
1. Refusal of the Return
Does the person refuse to come back to everyday life? Is the person
concerned that their message won't be heard, or that their gifts will be
unappreciated, or that the wisdom gained can not be communicated?
2. The Magic Flight
Are there obstacles to the person's returning to normal life? Given this
person's background and experience, what kink or obstacle would make sense
or be especially difficult or suiting to his or her situation? Will these
obstacles further enlighten us about either the person, their quest, or
their boon?
3. Rescue from Without
Must the person be rescued from their journey? Can their original guides and
assistants still help them?
4. Crossing of the Return Threshold
What marks the person's return to normal life? What challenges does the
person face in integrating the experience of the quest into his or her life?
Can/does the person share his or her experiences and the wisdom gained from
them with others? How do others receive the person upon the return?
5. Master of the Two Worlds
Given this person's background and experience, what would represent the two
worlds in his or her life? Does this person demonstrate his or her mastery
of both the spiritual and material, the inner and outer worlds?
6. Freedom to Live
Does the person achieve the ability let go of the fear of death, to live in
the moment, to neither anticipate the future nor regret the past?

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[> Re: Jackpot! (long) -- Rufus, 22:54:48 05/23/01 Wed

Hey, thanks for the site...it's quite an experience.

I wonder if Buffy will have to go through the Rescue from Without? That
would make for a great 2 hour season opener.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Nicely done -- darrenK, 05:48:49 05/24/01 Thu

Very cool.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Jackpot! (long) -- mundusmundi, 08:11:55 05/24/01 Thu

Great site. A good book that deals with this subject is Chris Vogler's _The
Writer's Journey_, which takes Campbell's thesis and applies it to feature
films. He also abbreviates and clarifies some of the stages, so it reads a
little more smoothly. It goes like this:

Act One: 1. Ordinary World. 2. Call to Adventure. 3. Refusal of the Call. 4.
Meeting with the Mentor. 5. Crossing the First Threshold.

Act Two: 6. Tests, Allies, Enemies. 7. Approach to the Inmost Cave.

Act Three: 8. The Road Back. 9. Resurrection. 10. Return with the Elixir.

Looks like our heroine is poised right before Resurrection.

Vogler also goes into a lot of detail about Jungian archetypes, which are
interestingly applied to the Buffyverse: Hero, Mentor, Threshold Guardian,
Herald, Shapeshifter, Shadow, Trickster. Lots of variations and blends and
ambiguities there.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Jackpot! (long) -- Humanitas, 10:47:58 05/24/01 Thu

Wow! Great post and great site! Thanks for the tip.

Question: would you include the Scoobies under Supernatural help?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Jackpot! (long) -- Solitude1056, 12:51:14 05/24/01 Thu

I did, just because it definitely seems like the Scoobies have always
represented the "best parts" of Buffy herself: head, heart, mind, hand, etc,
etc.

And then I went & read purplegirl's original post on heros... it's a bit
easier (now that we're later in the cycle) but I'm still tempted to repost
her post just as a corrollary, except that then it'd reveal MY post for the
pathetic knock-off that it really is.

bwahahahaha. :)

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[> [> [> Spirit, Heart and Mind -- Avatar 2001, 16:08:29 05/29/01 Tue

Willow - Spirit/Spiritus
Xander - Heart/Animus
Giles - Mind/Sophus

From -Primeval

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> hero's journey -- purplegrrl, 14:32:05 05/30/01 Wed

Well, I did have an advantage - I got to hear Christopher Vogler lecture on
his book "A Writer's Journey" about 15 months ago. (Hey, repost away!!)

I think it's kind of interesting that when I originally posted about the
hero's journey I'm not sure that people saw the "big picture" of how it
applied to the Buffyverse. Well, that and that was when Spike was starting
to do some rather un-vampire-like things and a lot of people wanted to
insert Spike into the hero role. We ended up with ATLtS (All Threads Lead to
Spike).

For me, Spike's role is changeable - villain, trickster, mentor, gate
guardian, maybe even hero. But the story is about Buffy, she is the hero.
Now that Buffy has made the ultimate sacrifice for family, friends, the
world, a lot more people are seeing Buffy's journey as that of the hero. But
the "Death" in the hero's journey is not necessarily death of the physical
body. It can be death of an idea, a way of thinking or reacting, a view of
the world, etc.

We know Buffy will be returning from the dead (but not exactly how). This is
similar to several Greek myths where someone goes to the underworld to beg
the release of their loved one (the story of Orpheus is one) - classic hero
stories. Will this be the way Buffy is returned to us? Who knows. Maybe
Giles will make this perilous journey to retrieve Buffy. Maybe Willow will
try (will Tara let her?). Will Buffy come back as Buffy the young woman (no
super powers or fated duty) or Buffy the Vampire Slayer (hardcore slayer
since "the best part of her" is now Dawn)?? Will she gain something useful
from her experience? Will she be able to use that knowledge?

Joss has said that Buffy will be different when she returns, so I think all
bets are off.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: hero's journey -- LoriAnn, 15:21:51 06/01/01 Fri

If Dawn is made from the best part of Buffy, does that necessarily mean that
Buffy, herself, is whatever was left over after Dawn was made? I doubt it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> the best part -- purplegrrl, 07:45:54 06/04/01 Mon

I think what Buffy meant when she said that Dawn was the best part of her
was that Dawn could be a young woman without having to deal with all the
weirdness of being the Slayer. Most of Buffy's angst and ruined
relationships stem directly from her duties as the Slayer. As much as Buffy
has embraced her Slayer-hood, there is still a part of her that wants to be
a normal, non-superpowered person. She sees Dawn as that part of herself. To
Buffy that part is the best part of herself.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Mother Death/Daughter death -- darrenK, 12:54:32 05/24/01 Thu

After reading this post and the TVguide online interview with Joss, it
occured to me that one of the reasons Joyce died was to show the audience
that when an ordinary person dies, death is final.

Even in the Buffyverse.

But when a hero dies, that's different. Or will be.

I wonder if Angel clues the Scoobies into the resurrection of Darla? Or if
Willow performs the resurrection from the Darkest magics?

I just hope it doesn't end up as a Pet Semetary (poor attempt at the Stephen
King spelling)thing where Buffy is resurrected as some sort of
shuffling,drooling maggot-eaten, half-zombie. Even if she recovers from
that, it would be too depressing. America already has too few heros, there's
no need to trash the one we've got. dK

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[> [> Not all heroes come back. -- Solitude1056, 19:40:32 05/24/01 Thu

Doyle died - and rather poignantly, too, given the short time he was on the
show - and as a hero, at that. So far (despite significant begging from
fans), there's been no return. Not all heroes come back. Sheesh, come to
think of it, just how many have died & returned, short of CPR? (Which, in my
book, doesn't really count - that's only a few seconds, really.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> None, unless you count Angel's trip to hell as death! -- Avatar
2001, 16:15:54 05/29/01 Tue

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Mother Death/Daughter death -- maddog, 20:19:24 05/30/01 Wed

What I found interesting in that tvguide article was how Joss said, Buffy
will be back and we'll explain why she will be back and why Joyce won't.
Cause that's gonna be huge at first, no matter what way she comes back the
immediate thought is, well then why not bring Joyce back that way too. And
then the fallout when Buffy and Dawn realize they can't bring their mother
back that way.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Jackpot! (long) -- Justin, 15:30:15 05/29/01 Tue

Thanks Solitude. I appreciate that list. I printed it and I think I'll end
up referencing it often for many things.

J


Joss interview on TV Guide.Com -- rpcvc76, 01:13:34 05/24/01 Thu

I found on tv guide online, that Joss recently answered more questions about
"The Gift", UPN move, Sarah staying, Buffy being *really* dead and rotting
in her grave as we speak (his words), and other extra good info.

http://www.tvguide.com/newsgossip/insider/010524a.asp

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[> Re: Joss interview on TV Guide.Com -- verdantheart, 06:58:39 05/24/01 Thu

Early October?! Can we wait?!

Well, at least it will give me more time to find some way of getting UPN!

- vh

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Hey, what happened to early return in August?! -- rowan, 19:25:16
05/24/01 Thu

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Joss the god give hope and ... -- purplegrrl, 09:06:59 05/24/01 Thu

Tantalizing interview. Joss gives some straight answers and leaves others
dangling just out of reach.

I read in another interview (I think BtVS the Offical Magazine) that Joss
had the end of Season 5 planned since about Season 3.

We're not worthy!!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Joss the god give hope and ... -- Humanitas, 10:58:57 05/24/01 Thu

So let me see if I have this straight:

1. Buffy is dead.
2. Death is not final.
3. There's gonna be grieving, and then a litteral resurection of the slayer,
and all will be explained in an honest, 'real,' non-cheesy way.

AAaugh! Joss makes my brain hurt, and it is good!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Joss the god give hope and ... -- rowan, 19:30:28 05/24/01 Thu

"3. There's gonna be grieving, and then a litteral resurection of the
slayer, and all will be explained in an honest, 'real,' non-cheesy way."

Didn't he say rebirth? Maybe there's not a difference, but resurrection
implies something different to me than rebirth. Resurrection almost means
restoring what was there before, but rebirth means becoming like a child
again. I feel like there's a clue there to how this will be done (especially
since her body is rotting, it would be gross to resurrect it), but I'm too
thick to figure it out.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Joss the god give hope and ... -- FanMan, 21:57:54 05/24/01
Thu

Maby the clue is that Joss said the slayer would be ressurected instead of
saying Buffy?
I'm too thick to add more...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Joss the god gives hope and ... -- purplegrrl, 08:04:47
05/25/01 Fri

And then it's always possible that Joss is using the words "rebirth" and
"resurrection" interchangably - either to throw us for a loop or because
that's just what comes out of his mouth at the time.

Should be an interesting ride.


Buffy, you are the weakest link... goodbye! -- Manoon, 01:47:36 05/24/01 Thu

Of course, I'm only kidding...

hmmmm, so who IS the weakest link, then?

(no, it's NOT Tara!)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Weakest links -- LoriAnn, 05:39:10 05/24/01 Thu

Each of the Scoobies is weak in some way or other, even Buffy. To name one
or another the "weakest link" would be to ignore their strengths and,
particularly, their strengths combined. Each character performs a function
in the Scoobies and in the structure of the stories. Anya, for instance, is
usually comic relief, but this week, although her take-the-
bull-by-the-horns attitude irritated almost everyone, it was she who got
things off dead center when all anyone could do was get upset over killing
or not killing Dawn. In her own way, she took Willow's role from the
previous week. She had the strength to be practical when practicality was
what was called for.
Each of the SG functions in ways to add to the whole, and the whole is
greater than the sum of the parts. If there is a weakness, it is an overall
weakness and probably that they all care too much.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> I like that answer! Yes I do! :) -- Rob, 07:58:02 05/24/01 Thu

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> hmmm -- Manoon, 09:05:54 05/24/01 Thu

Not really what I meant though. I chose the word 'weakest' cos I'm a Brit
and you just got our dreadful show with that dreadful woman - i am SO SO
SORRY!!

anyway, what I was really getting at is many people post often about who
their FAVOURITE characters are, and why. I was just curious to know the
other side of the coin.. who is NOT liked (or better: who is LEAST liked),
and why?

Just as it is a good thing to have favourite characters among the buffyverse
in general, it's equally valid to not warm to others. It's not an insult to
the show, to the meanings behind the metaphors we love to interpret, or to
anyone else's posts...

For example, I'm not a huge fan of Spike's dodgy English accent! Or Willow
when she witters (tho Assertive Willow is cool). And I feel there is so much
more Xander can do, so why make him so goofy all the time? I don't relate
very well to him because of this.

Thats the kind of thing I was getting at, I guess

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: hmmm -- Rob, 09:15:38 05/24/01 Thu

IMO, the weakest link was Riley...I always thought he was whiney and a
little too possessive over Buffy. That jealousy over Angel was ridiculous.
Over all, his personality just annoyed me.
But luckily, he was voted off, in a manner of speaking. You are the weakest
link. Goodbye, Iowa! LOL.
And so right now I love the entire cast to bits and pieces!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: hmmm -- FanMan, 15:07:47 05/24/01 Thu

I agree Rily screwed up; Buffy's love is for everyone. She loves Angel? no
jealosy from me, I would be happy if Buffy were my friend, even a smile
would make my day......Sarah has a beutifull smile! Rily was loved by Buffy,
he complained she did not love him enough.

I would be satisfied with just a smile from Buffy...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: hmmm -- verdantheart, 07:47:25 05/25/01 Fri

How about Spike with a southern accent (as was contemplated)?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> maybe -- Manoon, 08:12:39 05/25/01 Fri

or a nice French accent... or an Indian one! :)

I guess it's not so bad (that means that I am used to it) Druscilla's UK
voice is MILES more dodgy than his!


Gaining Knowledge/understanding -- Kerri, 07:47:50 05/24/01 Thu

Bear with me her:
Charaters seem to gain a certain amount of understanding from being removed
from reality, soctiety, etc. I guess the best way to explain is by giving
examples:

1)Crazy people: Gain a new perspective by being removed from reality. Only
people who can see the key. Also there is a sort of wisdom that seems to
come with being crazy-ex)Tara calling Giles a killer in The Gift.

2) The Desert: The desert is removed from society. It is here we see the
Spirit quest and the knowledge gained in Restless.

3) Dreams: Again being removed from reality. Well the best example of corse
is restless, also Buffy has had many dreams that serve as prophesies-ex) in
season 2 Angel dying, Hush, etc.

4) Death: seems to be as removed as person can get, completely seperate from
life itself. In Prophesy Girl Buffy died for a few seconds and when she came
back there was something different: Xander tells her she's still weak and
she say no she feel good, strong, there was some enlightenment that came
from that moment of death.

I'd have to imagine a great deal of knowledge, understanding, enlightenment
will come to Buffy as a result of her death. However, this may not be
knowledge meant to be in this world, and it will be interesting to see how
Buffy is changed when she returns.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Gaining Knowledge/understanding -- Rufus, 12:49:27 05/24/01 Thu

I find that the insane frighten us because even though removed from reality
they often say things that make complete sense. You can't get much further
from reality than death. What will Buffys experience of death be? With Angel
we know he was removed from this reality but he didn't "die"....will she see
her mother...not want to come back? In FFL Buffy feared the death that has
chased her from season one. In dying that is the one fear she will
conquer....you can't fear death when you know what is to come....unless you
went somewhere very unpleasant.


Read this: Joss' interview w/ TV Guide about what's gonna happen next
season... -- Rob, 09:09:39 05/24/01 Thu

Here's the link where I got the interview from:
http://www.tvguide.com/newsgossip/insider/

-------------------------------------------------------

TVGO: First off, is Buffy really dead?

Whedon: Yes. She's rotting in her grave even as we speak.

TVGO: But Sarah's coming back?

Whedon: Yes.

TVGO: You can understand how some people might be confused...

Whedon: Yes.

TVGO: Are you worried about alienating viewers by bringing her back from the
dead? I mean, we saw the tombstone.

Whedon: Yes, I'm always worried about that. The point is, you have to take
it seriously and pay it homage and make it as hard and strange for the
people in the show as it is for the audience to accept. Then you earn it.

TVGO: If you bring Buffy back, then why couldn't you also bring back Joyce?

Whedon: You could, but we'll explain why.

TVGO: What's the craziest Buffy resurrection scenario you've heard in the
last 48 hours?

Whedon: Buffy shows up in an alternate universe, but I don't think that's a
good idea.

TVGO: You already know how this will be resolved, then?

Whedon: We've had next season planned out for a long time - before we even
knew we were changing networks.

TVGO: Do you think, in retrospect, it's a little confusing? First Buffy
leaves the WB, and now Buffy is dead. Some fans are wondering if the show is
over.

Whedon: It's our job this summer to make people aware that Buffy - starring
Sarah Michelle Gellar as Buffy - is coming back on UPN next fall. And I'm
just gonna keep saying it to everybody I meet and every chance I get, and
UPN is going to start advertising it today. We'll get the word out.

TVGO: Do you think the WB purposely added that farewell message at the end
of the episode to further confuse people?

Whedon: You know, it was sort of incredibly classy and slightly underhanded.
The whole "Series Finale" thing has been a little cheesy, but actually, I
was pretty touched when I saw the message. The fact of the matter is they
didn't say, "Goodbye. It's over." They said, "Thank you." So, at the end of
the day, I thought that was kind of nice.

TVGO: If and when the day comes that Sarah leaves the show, would you
retitle it Dawn the Vampire Slayer?

Whedon: What I would do with it is hard to say, but that's certainly a show
I'd watch. Michelle [Trachtenberg] is a powerhouse. I have the best ensemble
that I could ever hope to work with. It could happen, but if it did, it
wouldn't be for years because Sarah's coming back.

TVGO: Did anyone else die during the climax? Anya looked like she was in
pretty bad shape.

Whedon: She's OK, she made it.

TVGO: What was up with Giles killing Ben? Is that going to be the beginning
of a trend?

Whedon: No, that's just the thing he had to do. And you know, Giles will be
recurring next year instead of a regular because [Anthony Stewart Head is]
going to live in England. We're working on a BBC [spinoff] show for [that
character]. So, it's a side of Giles you're more likely to see on his show
than you are on Buffy. But, it's not like he's going to become an evil
killer or anything.

TVGO: Does Ben's death mean Glory is dead too?

Whedon: Yeah, it does.

TVGO: Whose voice was telling Spike to go rescue Dawn? It was a very Star
Wars-type moment.

Whedon: It was Willow... Just yet another example of how Willow's power is
increasing.

TVGO: Given that Buffy's death factored into Angel's finale, won't you have
to kick off the season with some type of WB/UPN crossover?

Whedon: No, I really won't. And I'm not entirely sure that either network
would want to. Not that Angel won't be dealing with the idea of Buffy's
death and her rebirth, but the fact is, he's on his own now. He's at the big
scary network by himself and he's going to have other very pressing matters
to deal with.

TVGO: So you won't pick up Angel next fall where the season finale left off?

Whedon: No. Like we usually do, it will be a few months later.

TVGO: Do you know the date of Buffy's two-hour premiere?

Whedon: I don't know the date. I believe we're looking at early October, but
nothing's been set.

TVGO: Will Amber Benson (Tara) be added to the opening credits next season?

Whedon: No, Amber's going to stay at a recurring status. But she will, like
this year, be in most of the shows.

TVGO: Any other cast changes on Buffy?

Whedon: Apart from Giles becoming a recurring character? No.
-----------------------------------------------------

A lot of information to process! LOL. I personally am even more intrigued
about how they'll bring Buffy back than before. I'm especially interested to
know why Buffy could be brought back, but Joyce can't.
And I'm also still wondering why Amber won't be in the opening
credits...James got in the opening credits only 2 or 3 weeks after the chip
was implanted, Michelle, on her 2nd episode had her name in the credits,
Mark midseason did also, Anya got onto the credits finally this season...Why
not Amber already?
Anyway, any of you guys have any thoughts on the stuff I raised questions
about or anything in the article in general?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Oops! I made a little goof... -- Rob, 09:11:20 05/24/01 Thu

I said all the actors' names for getting on opening credits, but said "Anya"
instead of "Emma." Not a big deal, but just thought I should fix that... :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Oops! I made a little goof... -- Manoon, 09:18:20 05/24/01 Thu

So Tara ISN'T going to be on the main credits, she's again resigned to
'recurring character' mode, but will be in most of the episodes.. why? I
don't get it?

Hasn't she earned full status already? I was convinced she had a greater
part to play next season (although thinking about it, she did feature well
from the second half of series 5 onwards) to be the light to Willows coming
darkness... now I am a little less confident :(

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Come on, Joss! We want more Tara!!! -- Rob, 09:29:40 05/24/01 Thu

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Recurring Tara -- Humanitas, 11:11:06 05/24/01 Thu

I'm not sure, but I think there are usually contract issues involved in this
sort of thing. Anyone know?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Don't get it. Wish the interviewer had asked the obvious followup ?
-- Wiccagrrl, 21:47:12 05/24/01 Thu

Why???

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[> [> [> [> Re: Don't get it. Wish the interviewer had asked the obvious
followup ? -- purplegrrl, 08:41:35 05/25/01 Fri

Maybe recurring character status is at Amber's request. She has other
interests. She recently filmed an independent film (with James Marsters if I
remember correctly). And she is supposed to write a Buffy comic for Dark
Horse.

Maybe it's just a case of too many irons in too many fires and she doesn't
want to stretch herself too thin.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Don't get it. Wish the interviewer had asked the obvious
followup ? -- verdantheart, 09:20:36 05/25/01 Fri

That's Chance, a comedy, classified as in production at imdb.com, for those
interested.


Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded) -- mundusmundi, 10:14:23
05/24/01 Thu

POTENTIALLY SPOILERY AND TEDIOUSLY LONG-WINDED ;)....

This year, like all Buffy years, we've seen some recurring themes: family,
mortality, duality, sacrifice, and other motifs mentioned by many of you in
many excellent posts. Any ideas for what might emerge next season? Here are
a few personal thoughts:

1. Disunity. Now that the Slayer is gone, however temporarily, what happens
to the rest of the group? We've seen this play out before -- the start of
B3, with Buffy's self-imposed exile and friction-packed return, and B5, with
college-life and the Initiative creating barriers between the Gang -- but
this may be the strongest test yet on the glue that holds the Scoobs'
together.

2. The Evil Within. Many of the gang have dark sides that have the potential
to be unleashed. Willow's witchery, Anya (still brooding over her line from
_Restless_: "This'll be a big year for vengeance"), Giles's Ripperocity,
Spike, natch. Even Buffy, when she returns: What will her moral compass be?

3. Cheating (and Cheapening) Death. Some have already expressed the
understandable worry that B's return, however it's done, will cheapen the
sacrifice. Knowing Joss -- creatively-speaking, not personally ;) -- he will
likely address this issue within the show itself. That it's going to happen,
one way or another, makes it seem likely to be a big theme, maybe *the*
theme next season. And finally...

4. Duty. Will Buffy still be the Slayer? Will she still want to be? Will she
have to contend with a new Slayer and what will her response be? (I know,
I've read some folks claim that for whatever reason a new Slayer can't or
won't be activated, but frankly I don't see Joss letting the opportunity
pass by.)

Looking forward to your ideas, and to next season....

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded) -- Malandanza,
10:56:21 05/24/01 Thu

Except for the disunity issue, I agree with everything you've said.

Unity: I think that Buffy's death will serve to bring the Scoobies closer
together. There is potential for chaos (consider Xander's comment about
smart girls being sexy and Willow's flirtatious response) but disunity has
been done. Even in the Xander/Willow area, as soon as Anya and Xander are
married, the sublimated romance between them will finally be at an end. And
there's dawn to consider -- what happens to her? will Child Protective
Services finally track down Hank (and if they do, why would he move to
Sunnydale?) or will she end up a ward of the court? She could be adopted by
a married couple (like Anya and Xander), but I don't really see another way
to keep her on the show. More than anything else, Dawn's continued presence
would keep the group together. (By the way, even if Buffy returns, she'll be
legally dead and unable to gain custody of Dawn).

Evil Within: Particularly where Willow is concerned. Previously, Buffy, Oz
and Tara have expressed grave concerns about her magic -- but now that
Willow's magic has been instrumental in saving the world, they can no longer
argue about its danger. essentially, she has carte blanche to continue to
delve into Darkest Magicks. I don't think Buffy will return dark (although I
would definately be interested in seeing a darker Buffy), instead, I think
she will return as an even purer version of herself.

Cheating/Cheapening Death: It's hard to imagine how they could do the series
with Buffy dead but keeping SMG on the show -- Ok, they could do a
retrospective one week, some dream sequences, the Buffybot (yuck!), they
could even have an episode where the Scoobies sit around wondering "What
Would Buffy Do?", then have a seance to find out. But, eventually, they have
to bring her back -- and bring her back in such a way that it is clear that
Buffy's is a one-time only ressurrection. However she returns, her sacrifice
has been cheapened. Balancing this is that we might get insights into the
afterlife in the Buffyverse when she returns from the "undiscovered
country." And she becomes a hero like Heracles or Odysseus once she's
complete her trip to the underworld.

Duty: I'd like to see a return of Buffy without her powers. I have a problem
with yet another slayer being called and Buffy still keeping her powers --
three slayers? Actually, I think another slayer will be called -- here's
why: Initially, Buffy had the connection with the First Slayer -- she lost
it when she briefly died (but kept the powers). Kendra then had that
connection. At this point, if Buffy had died, another slayer would not have
been called. Kendra's death passed the connection on to Faith, who, because
she did not have Kendra's training or Buffy's force of spirit, was more
susceptible to the influence of the First Slayer, and, thus, a darker
slayer. Buffy reconnected to the First Slayer in season 4, severing Faith's
connection in the process -- now Buffy has the dark impulses while Faith has
a chance to atone. If Faith dies, I don't think a new slayer will be called
(Buffy has stolen Faith's birthright)-- but I do think that Buffy's death
will call the next slayer. Perhaps Buffy will be the watcher for her new
protege.

Oh, and you're not long-winded on this board until you reach your 5th page
of writing :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded) -- Rob, 12:29:38
05/24/01 Thu

I found your comments very interesting, but I have a few problems with them.
Firstly, I don't agree that it cheapens Buffy's sacrifice were she to come
back. Or it depends on how it is done. I will reserve my judgment for next
season. However, considering that Joss has had the entire outcome planned
for a long time, I see Buffy's death as a predestined occurence that is
necessary for her to complete her hero's journey. Many heroes in mythology
had to go down into the "belly of the beast," i.e. die to be reborn stronger
and greater. When they sacrifice themselves, they do not know they will be
able to return. Buffy jumped with no knowledge for all we know that she has
any way of returning. Therefore, her return I think should be considered a
reward for this self-sacrifice, not a cheapening.
I also disagree with your opinion that Buffy's death will call on another
slayer, although we'll have to wait to see for that as well. We have seen on
the show that the Slayer powers are not a single force that occupies one
girl, then goes onto another when that one dies, evidenced by the fact that
when Buffy was revived, she retained the Slayer powers even when Kendra was
called. After Kendra's death, Faith had the slayer powers. I don't believe
her "going bad" prevents Faith from being the one to call the next slayer,
for two reasons: (1) Faith has begun to redeem herself now. (2) Presumably,
only one girl can pass on the powers when she dies, or from now on there
will be 2 slayers. If it were anything else, Buffy could be killed, revived,
killed, revived, etc just in order to bring forth a whole army of Slayers,
each one of whom would have the power to call a slayer themselves. I don't
think it could possibly work that way, or it would have already been done.
No, I believe each slayer can die only once in order to fit into the rules
of then calling another slayer. If they are revived, they fit outside the
accepted rules. They can, as Buffy was up till now, continue to fight and
protect the world as the Slayer, but their death will not call another.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Spoiler from another source... -- Wisewoman, 14:52:58 05/24/01
Thu

How consistent is Joss within the various segments of the Buffyverse? The
reason I'm asking is that I read an interview where he spoke about writing a
Buffy-related comic book that would take place 300 years in the future, and
centre around the FIRST slayer to be called since Buffy Summers (which right
there is inconsistent, because of Kendra and Faith...)

Of course, he could just have been joking, but under what circumstances
would there be no need for a new slayer for 300 years? Buffy comes back
immortal and lives that long? All the vampires die of some sort of plague
and there's no need for a slayer? Gotta love that Joss, he always keeps me
guessing... ;o)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy returning -- FanMan, 16:35:14 05/24/01 Thu

"You think you know what you are, what is to come. You haven't even begun"

Buffy is on the path of self/slayer discovery that other slayers chose not
to follow or did not survive long enough to start. She has shown a
willingness to seek more than the lameness of the WC line of the Slayers
being servants of the Watchers. Her story is a modern eqivilant of the
mythic hero stories of legend. Ressurecting a slayer who is simply a warrior
would be cheap; Buffy has allways presurved her humanity and now she has
moved on to the spiritual aspects of slayerness so she is a heroic figure
beyond the normal heroism of the "average slayer" and ressurecting her is
not cheap. I am curious how it will be done and if it will be slightly
cheesy, however since Joss planned this for two years he has had a loooooong
time to figure out somthing that will make sense...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy returning -- Rufus, 17:27:36 05/24/01 Thu

Hey! Maybe that's what the chees man really represents....all the fan
complaints of cheesy endings.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Cheese man was a warning that there would be
"something cheesy going on" -- FanMan, 19:02:16 05/24/01 Thu

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy returning -- rowan, 19:22:26 05/24/01 Thu

Yes, I thought the cheese man was Joss's little joke on us and our fear of
cheesiness (inexplicably spelled with a z as he said in one interview).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> future slayer -- purplegrrl, 09:19:07 05/25/01 Fri

Concerning the Slayer comic Joss is writing for Dark Horse:
As I understand it there is a point in the future inwhich vampires, demons,
etc., no longer exist in this dimension - due to a plague or magic happening
or ??? (I don't think this has been detailed yet). Because of this lack of
evil that needs fighting, Slayers are no longer being called/chosen and the
Watchers Council turns into a pack of "jibbering idiots." About 300 years in
the future, vampires start reappearing in this dimension. A Slayer is
called, but she has no training and no real concept of what her role is.

And then the story unfolds.

The first installment should be out soon - if I remember correctly. Check
your local comic store.

(BTW, I think Joss saying she is the first Slayer called since Buffy is just
some convenient shorthand so we understand where the story is coming from.
It would be harder to grasp if Joss said she was the first Slayer called
since Slayer X (a Slayer some time after Faith). Or maybe Buffy really will
be resurrected as immortal!! With Joss you never know! ;) )

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded) -- Jack
Shadow, 21:48:25 05/24/01 Thu

It seems to me that one interpretation of "death is your gift" is just that
- by dieing Buffy can create other slayers. She has, after all, done this
once, so there is really no reason it couldn't happen again. Somehow the
magical rules that create slayers require something arbitrary, like the
heart to stop or perhaps even the soul to leave the body. Apparently this
happened to Buffy, with the result that Kendra was activated. I could see a
plot line like this:

a)Buffy comes back from the underworld, maybe via the Valet. It would
certainly seem that Angel is owed a life. Joss said it was cheesy and this
is - laid out in advance but probably too easy.
b)Another slayer in some far off place has been activated, say, China or
Europe. Faith is still a slayer.
c)Buffy is a plain old person now, but Dawn is still the Key, whatever that
means, Willow is a big-time witch, etc.
d)Buffy feels really really out of it; normality is a huge bore and she has
no real life anyway
e)Buffy takes up with Spike for solace
f)Buffy gets vamped by Spike at her request and cursed by Willow
g)Buffy is back as the vampire vampire slayer. At this point, I don't think
there is much likelyhood of her ever being really happy again.
h)Season 7 ends with Buffy really dieing in some act that has the effect of
wiping out all vampires, including her and Spike. Angel has become human by
this point - he has an easy way out via the demon blood. We pretty much know
that this is how Joss intends to end the series to set up the background for
the comic.

The alternative way to run it is she is still a slayer when she comes back,
just like the first time. Different stories follow, but we still end up with
the same end at the close of season seven (big mojo wipes out all vampires).

In any case, I've never understood where all this "single line of slayers"
stuff comes from other than the "one girl in the world" pitch line.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Army of Slayers -- Malandanza, 20:03:53 05/25/01 Fri

"I also disagree with your opinion that Buffy's death will call on another
slayer, although we'll have to wait to see for that as well. We have seen on
the show that the Slayer powers are not a single force that occupies one
girl, then goes onto another when that one dies, evidenced by the fact that
when Buffy was revived, she retained the Slayer powers even when Kendra was
called. After Kendra's death, Faith had the slayer powers. I don't believe
her "going bad" prevents Faith from being the one to call the next slayer,
for two reasons: (1) Faith has begun to redeem herself now. (2) Presumably,
only one girl can pass on the powers when she dies, or from now on there
will be 2 slayers. If it were anything else, Buffy could be killed, revived,
killed, revived, etc just in order to bring forth a whole army of Slayers,
each one of whom would have the power to call a slayer themselves. I don't
think it could possibly work that way, or it would have already been done.
No, I believe each slayer can die only once in order to fit into the rules
of then calling another slayer. If they are revived, they fit outside the
accepted rules. They can, as Buffy was up till now, continue to fight and
protect the world as the Slayer, but their death will not call another."

I agree that only one girl's death will call the next slayer. I do not think
it is reasonable to assume that no slayer has ever been revived before
Buffy. If each slayer's death called another slayer, we should have more
than two, perhaps dozens (or even an "Army of Slayers," if some clever, but
evil, watcher decided to revive his slayer over and over for the good of the
world). The slayer powers, once granted, cannot be revoked -- hence Buffy
still possesed all the slayer abilities after her death. But the ability to
call the next slayer passes to the next slayer. thus, there is only one
"legitimate" slayer, the one whose death calls the next -- the one with the
connection, not to TPTB, but to the First Slayer.

The First Slayer is not about saving the world, she is about death. She
sleeps on a bed of bones (presumably, not vampire bones) and her gift is
death. Far from Faith having "gone bad," I believe Faith was closer to the
First Slayer than Buffy ever was. Until those pesky moral ambiguities
settled in, Faith was all about the slaying. After the joining ritual, I
believe Buffy inadvertantly reconnected herself to the First Slayer, and
severed Faith's ties, reestablishing Buffy as the legitimate slayer. Thus,
Buffy's death, rather than Faith's, will call the next slayer. Supporting
this view is the manner in which Buffy began acting this season -- much more
in touch with the darker side of slaying. There were some definite
Faith-like moments this season (hunting vamps, then snuggling up next to
Riley, torching the Vamp Brothel and massacring the vamps, casually snapping
the neck of a demon).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded) -- rowan,
19:20:07 05/24/01 Thu

"Unity: I think that Buffy's death will serve to bring the Scoobies closer
together. There is potential for chaos (consider Xander's comment about
smart girls being sexy and Willow's flirtatious response) but disunity has
been done. Even in the Xander/Willow area, as soon as Anya and Xander are
married, the sublimated romance between them will finally be at an end. And
there's dawn to consider -- what happens to her? will Child Protective
Services finally track down Hank (and if they do, why would he move to
Sunnydale?) or will she end up a ward of the court? She could be adopted by
a married couple (like Anya and Xander), but I don't really see another way
to keep her on the show."

I agree. I think there will be strong unity (which will now include Spike,
although some members of SG will have fears of him reverting if chip fails).

I too puzzle over Dawn. If ASH is in less eps, I don't see Giles as a
guardian. Plus, you wonder if DCS would give a 15 year old girl as a ward to
a 45 year old single man. Xander and Anya appear to be the best possibility
for guardians, other than Hank. I suspect if Hank is found and Dawn must
reside elsewhere, Spike will go along for the ride. Or perhaps Dawn will
rebel and run. I can visualize Dawn wanting to live in Spike's crypt and
stay one step ahead of DCS, but I imagine the entire SG will want her to
have as normal a life as possible, which would not include Spike's crypt.

I wonder if Joss will spend any time on Dawn's situation at all, or if S6
will start with it all as accomplished fact?

"(By the way, even if Buffy returns, she'll be legally dead and unable to
gain custody of Dawn)."

Assuming that they actually reported her death to the authorities! (guess
they had to in order to get a death certificate to bury her). I wonder what
that scene looked like. "Umm, officer, you see, there was this portal...."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded) -- Anthony*,
19:51:10 05/24/01 Thu

Hey, it's Sunnydale--wouldn't you like to have a copy of its daily
obituaries?

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[> [> [> [> And what the heck happened to the dragon?! -- rowan, 19:54:11
05/24/01 Thu

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[> [> [> [> [> This is the story I heard... -- OnM, 15:45:57 05/26/01 Sat

He paid a visit to a couple of studios in Hollywood, but found that nobody
wanted to hire him because it was cheaper to do a CGI dragon than to feed
him every day. (Eating one of the studio heads in a fit of pique didn't help
his case either).

Rumor now has it he's off to Japan to see what Godzilla is up to.

(Well, inquiring minds want to know, you know?)

;)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded) -- rowan, 19:10:24
05/24/01 Thu

"1. Disunity. Now that the Slayer is gone, however temporarily, what happens
to the rest of the group? We've seen this play out before -- the start of
B3, with Buffy's self-imposed exile and friction-packed return, and B5, with
college-life and the Initiative creating barriers between the Gang -- but
this may be the strongest test yet on the glue that holds the Scoobs'
together."

Unfortunately, I have no brilliant ideas to offer, other than to speculuate
on disunity. I thought that S4 was about disharmony & the drifting apart of
the SG. I'm speculating that Joss would probably not repeat that in quite
the same way.

Joss has said in interviews that the season will show the SG "without
buffers" and having to realize they are the adults (and perhaps aren't doing
such a great job at it). We also know that ASH is going to be in less eps
since he's moving back to the UK. This also fits in with the "no buffer"
idea. I'm wondering if the SG will stay close together, but will encounter
alot of obstacles in dealing with adulthood that they will have to solve
together. My gut feeling is that they will live according to Buffy's words
-- love each other & take care of each other.

If Buffy doesn't return immediately, a major test will be dealing with Dawn.
Who does she live with? After all, everyone else is independent, but a 15
year old minor must have a guardian.

Also, Anya and Xander are planning a weddding. This is another major
transition to adulthood which the group will encounter. And after marriage
comes...babies!

Looks like it could be a very interesting season.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded) -- Solitude1056,
20:13:33 05/24/01 Thu

There were also comments, about a month or two ago?, in some Joss interview
that AH has asked for some time off next season... so there will be a
stretch of 4 or 5 episodes in which she'll be gone. I don't recall him
saying why or how or even what for in terms of AH herself. I think the
comment was more to describe his willingness as a boss to allow his
employees freedom to explore other avenues instead of chaining them to the
set for all 22 episodes.

But... it still raises some issues about who could be there for Dawn, and I
can't help but wonder why no one has suggested Tara? She's (supposedly) a
year older than the Scoobies, and has no ties to home. Xander & Anya might
be potential material if it weren't for the fact that Anya clearly gets on
Dawn's nerves sometimes, Anya's not used to sisters or sharing space other
than with Xander...

If Buffy is just "gone" one day & that's that - no official word - then Dawn
could feasibly stay with Tara (assuming Hank stays absent - hey, it's more
of that "what does Joss have against Dads?" routine). As far as Child
Protection Services would be concerned, Dawn is going to school and appears
to be fed & washed regularly. They'd have no reason to question it
otherwise, since the last word was that the authorities would be contacted
if Dawn were not "brought into line," so to speak - implying that good Dawn
= no CPS. If Dawn straightens up & flies right, and Buffy's absence isn't
mentioned to any officials, then I'd see no reason that CPS would have to
question Dawn's home condition.

That'd be my suggestion on how it could be handled, since I don't get the
impression that our faithful Scooby family takes too kindly to outsiders
pushing in on their affairs... especially those who tend towards the
boneheaded end of the authoritative spectrum (think Synder).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded) -- Isabel,
21:09:05 05/27/01 Sun

I've been wondering about what's going to happen to Dawn too.

I don't think you can have a grave without a death certificate. Wouldn't her
friends consider it a violation of her memory to just tote away her body and
hide her death? "She saved the world a lot," is that the epitath of someone
you stick in a car trunk and bury in the woods? It's not like they're afraid
she wouldn't be buried in hallowed ground because she's a suicide. Yes, she
saved the world, but the authorities won't understand that.

As for not telling anyone that Buffy's dead and having the Scoobies take
Dawn, difficult to manage. Do they revive the Buffybot to be Dawn's
'official' guardian and have Willow and Tara move in with them? 1) The 'Bot
would have to not be too badly damaged by Glory and repairable by Willow. 2)
They'd have to think of it very soon after Buffy's death. They looked too
torn up with grief to be thinking about much. Plus, none of them would be
able to publicly mourn her if that were the case.

Let's face it, no matter what we, as viewers, know or think we know, to the
Scoobies Buffy is not coming back so there is no reason to conceal her death
so her legal identity is preserved with the authorities. Maybe if Buffy made
out a will naming one of her friends as Dawn's guardian if something
happened to her Social Services might allow it, depending on who it is. I
agree that a 15 year girl would not be allowed to live with a single man in
his 40's, no matter how respectable. And what about a (seemingly) 25 year
old single man who is also an immigrant, unemployed, and homeless with a
strange allergy to sunlight. NOT! Willow and Tara are both in college and
how can they both go to college and take care of Dawn? Xander and Anya,
despite possible personality clashes, are the closest thing the Scoobies
have as guardians of Dawn.

Isabel


Article from the Washington Post -- Solitude1056, 10:28:30 05/24/01 Thu

Nyah-Nyah, UPN: WB Makes Things Tough for 'Buffy' Fans
By Lisa de Moraes

We know that Buffy didn't really die at the close of Tuesday night's season
finale -- because the WB network is still trying real hard to kill her off
before her move to UPN in the fall.

Z WB is about to announce that it won't run "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" on
Tuesday nights this summer after all.

"Buffy" has been a Tuesday TV institution for years.

Instead, WB will bounce "Buffy" around its prime-time schedule like a
ping-pong ball all summer long. The "Buffy" spinoff "Angel," now airing
Tuesdays at 9, will be yanked off the night, too, and sent packing to
Mondays at 9, where it's supposed to go this fall.

The idea here is to break "Buffy" fans of their Tuesday viewing habit before
the hit drama moves to UPN this fall. UPN execs announced to advertisers
last week that the network would keep "Buffy" in its longtime Tuesday slot
so as to keep viewer confusion to a minimum when the show switches networks.

WB, however, wants them to be confused. Earlier this month, after haggling
for months with the show's production house, 20th Century Fox TV, over the
price tag, WB lost "Buffy" to rival UPN. Last week, during WB's unveiling of
its prime-time schedule for the 2001-02 TV season, an exec stood up in front
of hundreds of advertisers and said the network wasn't broken up over the
loss because the show was beginning to skew a tad old -- not enough teen
viewers for WB. To prove the point, the WB exec announced that "Buffy" would
be replaced in the fall with the series "Gilmore Girls," whose star Alexis
Bledel, 18, is a full five years younger than "Buffy" lead Sarah Michelle
Gellar.

(Gellar must have seen this one coming; she had, after all, turned 24 last
month, which puts her more than halfway into WB's 12-34 target demo with her
best years behind her.)

At that same presentation, WB announced that it would run Wednesday movie
night this summer, using titles from parent company AOL Time Warner's
considerable flick library. But WB brass apparently changed their minds
after UPN suits announced a couple of days later that they had bought not
only "Buffy" but also "Roswell" -- another WB drama produced by 20th Century
Fox -- and scheduled them both on Tuesday night next season. This week,
however, WB has decided to make its summer Wednesday movie its summer
Tuesday movie instead.

So, on June 4, "Angel" makes the move to Mondays, replacing the UPN-bound
"Roswell," which WB will not air in reruns this summer for reasons too
obvious to explain.

WB's "Flix From the Frog" movie night will debut June 5 with the broadcast
of the feature film "I Know What You Did Last Summer," which, not
coincidentally, co-starred Gellar -- when she was much younger, of course.

Then, on June 6, "Buffy" gets booted to her first stop on the schedule:
Wednesdays at 9, replacing "Felicity."

A WB spokesman said the change of plans on the summer movie night wasn't
about messing with "Buffy" but "really about inventory and getting 'Gilmore
Girls' over there [on Tuesday] at the right time."

And noted various TV industry executives, if WB really wanted to deep-six
"Buffy," they'd putting it on Sunday night.

That hasn't happened -- yet.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> The WB is only proving how fearful they should be... -- Rob, 10:45:29
05/24/01 Thu

Logically, if the WB is so certain that "Buffy" is for an older demographic
now, and that it was the right choice to leave it behind, why are they
bothering to move it to Wednesday nights at 9? If they were so certain that
their channel was mostly based on teen ratings and they are equally certain
that many teens stopped watching the show, they would not need to lamely
attempt to break up the viewers' Tuesday night Buffy ritual. These teens,
according to them, have already stopped watching and thus do not need any
further discouragement. Hey, it's their logic, not mine! What they are
actually proving is that they are fearful that the people in their key
demographic will bail on them and move over to UPN.
The fact is that Tuesday night at 8 is Buffy night. People who watch the WB
have known that for years. Therefore, in great likelihood, those who do not
know Buffy has moved, will turn on the television, see that teeny-bopper
show, "Gilmore Girls" and turn off in disgust. At least, that's what I'm
hoping! If they were smart, they would have done something like keep
"Roswell," and put it on up against "Buffy." A cult hit like "Buffy," which
many "Buffy" fans watch, that could have cut into some of Buffy's viewers.
Instead, the WB let go of 2 of their big cult hits, and I predict that their
ratings will plummet a great deal because of that. The only one left now is
"Angel," which, when you think about it, is aimed at an even slightly older
demographic than "Buffy." After all, none of the characters are in college.
Hell, the main character is over 200 years old! It is also darker. Why then
place it after the feel-good family show of the century, "7th Heaven"?!? It
just doesn't make sense. The WB's reasoning is absurd at worst, and a
desperate struggle to stay alive at best.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Plus no Roswell reruns -- Elizabeth, 10:56:37 05/24/01 Thu

I already screwed up taping two episodes, and they didn't even have reruns
in mid-season. I hope UPN may pick up Roswell reruns to promote the show for
the fall???

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: WB Execs are not thinking right -- FanMan, 14:54:57 05/24/01
Thu

I am 28 and Buffy is my favorite show.
So the WB is losing teen viewers? The WB was the new kid on the block, and
had a good market strategy. Teens are fickle, not stupid. Teens have just as
much desire for quality as adults. The WB needs quality shows that teens can
relate to if they want that demographic. Buffy is like the X-Files, Star
Trek, and a few others; it will still be watched and rewatched for decades
after the last episode airs because it is multifaceted and you need to see
many episodes to really understand how complex Joss can be. It is still a
show with a fringe viewing demographic; the only reason many people watched
the WB is because of BUFFY. The WB could have switched focus to adult shows
and it would be good to keep BUFFY at the same time because BUFFY is now a
more adult and grey show like reality that adults deal with: kids have a
simple view of reality until they grow up and see that there are many greys
in choices.....well smart people figure out that painfull truth(grin)

BUFFY has many adult viewers and teens who grew up loving it are now close
to collage age and haveing some real spending money so keeping the show
would have kept those viewers loyal at a time they are a better marketing
demographic(17-22) than teens whose income is an allowance or very part time
work.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: WB Execs are not thinking right -- Cynthia, 16:55:35
05/24/01 Thu

If WB Execs are hoping that all of BTVS fans are going to turn on at 8 p.m.
on Tuesday come fall, they idiots. Haven't they heard of the interet,
fanboards, chatrooms. 99.9% of BTVS are going to be watching Buffy, not
turning WB to watch Buffy and in a supposed stupor (I guess they think we've
to "old" to turn the channels) watch Gilmore Girls.

And, I guess, the execs have never heard of vcrs or tivo's either. I've
faithly watched two shows that are on at the same time for years. The days
of just one show, one time period are long gone. I wonder when the TV execs
are going to realize that.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: The WB is only proving how fearful they should be... -- rowan,
19:02:00 05/24/01 Thu

Okay, wait a minute. The Gilmore Girls is not a teeny-bopper show, even if
that article gave the impression it is. It's actually a show that appeals to
an older female demographic, because it's really more focused on a 30
something single woman raising a daughter.

But I think you're right that WB is trying to suck people into another show
by putting it in Buffy's timeslot. The Gilmore Girls would actually be a
better fit after 7th Heaven, and if the WB wasn't so interested in playing
games, they'd realize that.

I don't understand this messing with the reruns. With a non-mainstream show
like BtVS, I can't imagine that the loyal core fanbase is going to be lost
by this type of obvious shell game.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: The WB is only proving how fearful they should be... --
Anthony8, 19:42:04 05/24/01 Thu

I really wonder about the so-called demographics cited by networks in their
promotion and scheduling of shows. I think that the WB seriously misread
BTVS' demographic. I believe it has a much broader age and gender appeal
than they ever realized. Gilmore Girls too. It is obvious from this message
board that, at least here, viewers are interested in quality storytelling
and non-pandering entertainment. I wouldn't be surprised if you sat down a
group of intelligent viewers of any age or gender background (I won't
include ethnicity because there is still a long, long way to go regarding
that) and find that they would like BTVS, Gilmore Girls, The West Wing, and
maybe even a sitcom like Seinfeld. Quality writing crosses demographics, but
I think that is way too complicated for network executives to comprehend and
quantify. After all those people are bean counters not creative types.

A8

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: The WB is only proving how fearful they should be... --
rowan, 19:53:01 05/24/01 Thu

I agree. I think BtVS is totally mis-marketed. It is a show that can really
appeal to an older audience. I have now forced my brother (30), mother (69),
and best friend (34) to watch an ep. I have converted them all to loyal
fans. They marketing had turned them off, until I could convince them to
watch an ep. BtVS comes out of the same tradition (for me at least) as JRR
Tolkien, CS Lewis, etc. Even Harry Potter appeals to both children and
adults.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The WB is only proving how fearful they should be... --
Anthony8, 20:26:38 05/24/01 Thu

Similar demographic here--mother (58) and best friend (32). I've been trying
to get my father interested since he has always been interested in Joseph
Campbell-type studies of mythology, but he's not a big TV watcher these
days. Someday I'll have to sit him down in front of a vcr and give him a
"Best of" showing.

There has been enough attention in the media (Matt Rousch of TV Guide and
Joyce Millman of salon.com, to name two) drawing attention to the quality
viewing that BTVS is that you would think the network executives would have
eventually caught a clue as to how to promote the show to a broad audience.
Oh well.

By the way, Tim Goodman is a writer for the San Francisco Chronicle who
mentions BTVS at least once a week in his various reviews and editorials.
Most recently, he wrote an article for the Sunday Datebook section that
lamented the lack of truly complex characters in dramatic TV today and cited
Buffy as perhaps the only one left worth watching.

A8

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[> [> [> [> [> Re: The WB is only proving how fearful they should be... --
Rufus, 21:10:16 05/24/01 Thu

If you tell a good story....it crosses generational lines...something they
should be paying attention to.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The WB is only proving how fearful they should be... --
Anthony8, 21:24:51 05/24/01 Thu

By the way, that Tim Goodman article on the lack of complex tv characters
can be found at this
address--http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/05/06/PK148408.DTL

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks for the link........... -- Rufus, 21:33:49 05/24/01
Thu


Thoughts on Dawn being the "softer side of Buffy" -- Rob, 10:34:20 05/24/01
Thu

I was thinking about a few of the postings I read here, that perhaps when
the Monks created Dawn, they isolated the more "girly" side of Buffy, while
Buffy herself kept the Slayer side. That actually makes a great deal of
sense, considering that when Dawn arrived is around the time that Buffy
started to distance herself from Riley and take him for granted. This
eventually lead to their breakup. Also, all year Buffy has repeatedly
wondered whether she has the ability to feel love anymore, which mirrored
Dawn's wondering whether she was real or not. Perhaps Buffy's feelings of
distance towards humanity at times and her taking Riley for granted are thus
a result of Dawn's creation, as the non-slayer side of Buffy was put into
another vessel. This could also explain why, in "Weight of the World,"
Willow talked to 2 Buffys at the end. Although we know that Dawn can
metaphorically be called "the softer side of Buffy," perhaps she is
literally as well. This year, Buffy explored the darker side of being the
slayer. Perhaps, in her hero's journey, it was necessary for the "girly"
part to be separated from her for a while, to more objectively understand
her role as the Slayer, and the difference between herself and a regular
killer. She was, however, required to protect the other side of herself, not
let it get away (or be taken), as she focused more deeply on her training.
At the end of "Becoming," Buffy sacrificed the human side of herself, her
passionate love for Angel, and kept the Slayer side, in order to save the
world. This lead to a period of great darkness for her, where she felt
compelled to run away and change her identity. Thus forgoing her humanity
and love is not the right choice, at least in a metaphysical sense.
At the end of "The Gift," Buffy sacrificed her "slayer" side to save the
more human side of herself, and the world. This leads to her death, and thus
this is not the most beneficial to her either. She has learned from this,
however.
Perhaps this was the lesson she had to learn: that both sides of herself are
equally important; that in some cases her being a human girl who cannot kill
her own sister, even to save the world, is more important than being the
Slayer, and should come first.
While ostensibly this season was about how dark the job of the Slayer is, it
also reveals, in a brilliant twist, that sometimes the job of being human is
more important.
At the moment, Buffy's hard and soft sides are separated, in fact the hard
side is for all intents and purposes dead and gone.
Could Buffy's resurrection next year have something to do with joining both
sides toget