May 2001 posts

Previous May 2001  

June 2001


My Thoughts On The Gift -- Kerri, 13:49:32 05/23/01 Wed

Wow! That was a really fantastic episode!!! The ending was somewhat
predictable, but I think that is part of what made it so great- everything
really fit together at the end. First the Buffy/ Faith dream two years ago,
and the refrence to the Robert Frost poem-"miles to go untill I sleep."
Buffy had responsibilities and she couldn't give up, she had miles to go.
Now she is "sleeping."

About what the first slayer/spirit guide told Buffy, "death is your gift" I
was wondering-is death a gift for Dawn or for Buffy. It may be a gift that
Buffy gives to her sister-sacrificing her life so that Dawn can live. On the
other hand it is a gift to Buffy-she doesn't have to experience the pain of
living without her sister-which as Spike said wouls destroy Buffy. Death
will bring Buffy peace-going back to what Spike told Buffy in Fool For Love.

I had one small problem with the last scene-which don't get me wrong I
loved. When Buffy is saying her last words to Dawn the camera moves off them
and we don't hear what she says until later, and we don't see the
expressions on their faces. While I did like hearing Buffy's parting
words-which were fantastic and my new favorit qoute from the show-ehile we
see the reaction of her friends, I really wanted to see Buffy and Dawn's
faces as Buffy spoke. I think that a great deal of emotion was taken away by
not seeing the faces of the two sisters. While the scene was tremendously
sad and I began to cry when I rewatched it I think that what really would
have made it heartwrenching and would have helped us to understand the
characters better would have been toi see their faces. However, I still
loved the scene and Buffy's final words.

The ending was great! I know some people were disappointed but I thought it
was perfect for Buffy to sacrafice herself for Dawn. The only thing about
Buffy dying that I really didn't like is how bringing her back will almost
undermine what happened with Joyce. There was such a big deal about death
being final and not bringing people back to life that I think Joss will
really have to come up with something amazing to explain Buff's return-and I
have no doubt he will!

I think it will actually make for great character developement to see how
Buffy is changed by the experience-what new knowledge and enlightenment she
gains.

I liked that Willow went to Angel-I would have liked to see his reaction to
hearing that Buffy was dead, and I really hope that they will address that
again next season.

The first scene was really good and worked really well to show the audience
how far Buffy has come. At first it's the old Buffy-joking, trying to make
light of being the slayer, but at the end there is a somber tone in her
voice that has come from her experience. Also, Buffy saying how she's just a
normal girl, but she proves herself to be anything but normal. Like Giles
says-she's a hero!

I have to say I liked seeing the Ripper. It was an interesting character
developement for Giles, and we really saw some of his dark side in the Gift.
It also showed how Buffy couldn't take an innocent life.

Well, that's all for now-I can't wait to see what Joss will do with this
one! How do you think he'll bring Buffy back?

I have to say that was maybe the best Buffy I've ever seen!

~Kerri

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Trusting Joss -- Humanitas, 14:39:43 05/23/01 Wed

I have to say that I hate the fact that Buffy died. Not that it wasn't the
perfect ending for the epsiode and the season's story arc - it was.
Everything has been leading up to this, and Buffy's death was the logical
conclusion. Despite this, I have two problems:

The first problem is that I know there is a season 6, and that SMG is under
contract to play Buffy, so her death doesn't have the poignancy that it
ought to have. It was moving, yes, but it should have been absolutely
heartbreaking, and it wasn't, because I have no (well, not as much) sense of
loss. I was more affected by Joyce's death, because I figured that the rules
would not be bent for her.

The other problem is that I can't see any good way to bring her back.
Anything I can come up with cheapens her sacrifice unbearably. If this were
a comic book, or a daytime soap opera, that would be fine. I hold BtVS to a
higher standard, mostly because it generally rises to one.

Having said all this, I still have faith that next season will be up to par.
I trust Joss to pull it off. After all, he managed the Buffybot, and none of
us thought he would. I was sure that could only be bad. May I always be
wrong in this particular way!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Trusting Joss -- Shiver, 16:32:55 05/23/01 Wed

I've been thinking the same thing all day. When Buffy stabbed Angel and sent
him to Hell, I was weepy for days. Because I hadn't read any spoilers (grin)
and I didn't know for sure he was coming back next season. But I know Buffy
isn't going to really stay dead ... so it makes all the rest of it seem so
empty. Spike and Willow's grief, and all the rest - I want to yell at the TV
and say, well she's coming back, dummies ... the only stirrings of emotion I
had during the ep were when Buffy said "I wish my mom was here ...." now
that was sad.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Maybe I'm a big softie, but -- Masquerade, 16:38:43 05/23/01 Wed

personally I sobbed the first time and this morning when I re-watched, not
because she was dead, but because she was willing to die. It was such a
touching and heroic thing and I couldn't stand seeing her sister and friends
in pain like that. Spike crying about killed me! OK, I also cry at some
credit card commercials about home and family and dogs and that, but...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Buffy's sacrafice -- Kerri, 16:43:19 05/23/01 Wed

Maybe bringing Buffy back cheapens her death as humanities said, but it
certainly doesn't cheapen her sacrafice-she still gave up her life for Dawn
and the world

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Join the Softie Club -- Solitude1056, 17:20:20 05/23/01 Wed

The ones that got me were Dawn & Spike, not Buffy. I mean, Buffy's the hero.
She chooses this, even when she says she's not choosing it... when push
comes to shove, she goes that extra mile. It's her purpose, and she embraces
it. But Dawn's new to this game, and Spike - well, Spike's supposed to be a
bad boy, a killer, and Buffy's worst nightmare. Instead he's trying to tell
Dawn he's sorry for not saving her, in that split second before he's tossed
off the edge, and Dawn's screaming for Doc not to do it. And at the end, it
was Spike's and Dawn's reactions that got me the most - the most jaded
experienced, even cynical character ... and the newest, naive, child-like
but wizened character, both equally distraught and in pain at the fact that
they were both helpless to prevent the circumstances that made Buffy choose,
yet again, to do The Hero Thing. Now that got me hard.

Ok, I'll stop going on about it, since this time (yay!) I've got it to
watch, again, once I get back from out of town. Yippee. Btw, does anyone
know if the WB is going to show reruns this summer, or if this season was it
until the show's syndicated?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Join the Softie Club -- rowan, 18:45:10 05/23/01 Wed

"Instead he's trying to tell Dawn he's sorry for not saving her, in that
split second before he's tossed off the edge, and Dawn's screaming for Doc
not to do it. And at the end, it was Spike's and Dawn's reactions that got
me the most - the most jaded experienced, even cynical character ... and the
newest, naive, child-like but wizened character, both equally distraught and
in pain at the fact that they were both helpless to prevent the
circumstances that made Buffy choose, yet again, to do The Hero Thing. Now
that got me hard. "

Me too. This was the most emotional moment of the ep for me. If I live to be
100, I don't think I will ever forget the agonized look on Spike's face, the
tears in his eyes, Dawn's fear, her instinctive move towards him, Spike's
whispered, 'no', followed by Dawn's scream of the same word. I can't believe
how much was conveyed without words by the looks on two actors' faces -- and
in such a short period of time. Everything of their love for each other, an
acknowledgement of each other's death (I believe Dawn thought the fall would
kill Spike), an acknowledgement of the apocalypse to come, and the guilt
over a failure that now Buffy would have to fix somehow.

Wow.

Willow telling Tara she would always find her got me too. I used alot of
tissues last night.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Join the Softie Club -- Rufus, 19:13:55 05/23/01 Wed

Spike always wanted to slip in and have himself a good day, he finally got
what he said he wanted only to find it the worst day and loss of his
unlife...his reaction was extreme...his facade of the big bad finally
dissolved in grief....

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Be careful what you wish for...it might come true, hmm?
-- rowan, 19:24:43 05/23/01 Wed

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Be careful what you wish for...it might come
true, hmm? -- Rufus, 21:44:15 05/23/01 Wed

In FFL Spike was so busy putting on the big Discovery Channel version of his
life that he pissed Buffy off in the end. He couldn't resist the temptation
to show her that he would be there when she lost her will to live. Her death
wish. What he said he wished for came true except for the fact that he never
really wanted that by the time FFL came about. He didn't truly know what he
wanted...he only knew that he wanted Buffy and felt a need to impress
her...only to put his foot in his mouth. His fear of being humiliated kept
him from being genuine with Buffy about who he had become and how he really
felt. Pride screwed up a chance for Buffy to see him a different way. The
only save that night was when he comforted Buffy on the back steps.
Unfortunatley she was in too much pain to realize just how much the big bad
had started to change.
Those big bad words about being there when Buffy died came true. Not only
can he feel guilt that he couldn't protect Dawn the way he wanted but now he
has to live with his words about a good day. I bet he would love to take
them back, and I believe he would have taken her place if he could have.
I find it so ironic that Spike was busy shadowing and attempting to kill the
girls that were the embodiment of what he wished he was. Does he get it? The
most efflugent thing he ever wanted for himself he snuffed out every chance
he got until he found Buffy who showed him what a hero really is. He always
wanted something glistening, and glowing....and there are the Summers girls,
Buffy who has love brighter than the flame, and Dawn who is pure green
glowing energy. What will he do next? He has a promise to keep.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Be careful what you wish for...it might come
true, hmm? -- squireboy, 10:51:03 05/24/01 Thu

Excellent points, Rufus (bonus points for working in "effulgent" :D). I
especially like your reminder about Spike's promise. He may have made it
assuming he was about to die, he always figured he'd go down fighting, but
alas, he lived, and now he has to be Dawn's protector. A real commitment, I
wonder if he will be up to the challenge.

Season 6 looks very promising. Naturally, I can't wait. :)

squireboy

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Be careful what you wish for...it might
come true, hmm? -- rowan, 19:39:21 05/24/01 Thu

I don't know if I can quite express this, but I'll try.

I think that Spike and Dawn are just totally in love with each other. Not in
a romantic/sexual way, but in a Buffy/Angel soulmate way (again, without the
romantic/sexual aspect). I have never seen two people look at each other
quite the way those two did up on the tower before Doc threw Spike off.

I have to admit, the idea of a B/S ship intrigued me at the start of S5. And
I'm glad that they're relationship is improving and maturing, because it
provides alot of opportunity to explore shades of grey not within Buffy's
other friendships.

But that storyline is not even close to as compelling as Spike and Dawn.
They have become such a couple in my mind...just as I think of Xander/Anya
and Willow/Tara as a unit, I think of Spike/Dawn the same way. I think I'll
be really shocked if they aren't joined at the hip in S6. I'm not really
sure if Joss intended this (or perhaps I'm overemphasizing it). Maybe it's
just the chemistry between MT and JM that does it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Be careful what you wish for...it might
come true, hmm? -- squireboy, 20:07:26 05/24/01 Thu

No offense, rowan, but um, ewww.
I think the evolution of Spike this year has been fascinating and there's no
doubting that he and Dawn have a bond. I know you're struggling to express
it, but I don't think it's as close as you're getting at. I wonder what joss
has in mind for Spike next year as he takes full centre stage as the major
male figure, with ASH moving to recurring and Xander's quirkiness being
written out to demonstrate maturity/growth. I'd hate to think that joss
intends Spike to be Giles the Second and I hold out hope that there is some
resolution some time for the deus ex machina chip in his head.
Spike used to get all the clever lines. Now he gets all the good scenes and
JM is taking full advantage. He was pretty amazing this season, especially
in the finale. For Spike to be most effective though, I think there has to
be a certain amount of Monster first, Man second for him to truly work.
Otherwise, he's just a tough Xander with headaches.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Be careful what you wish for...it
might come true, hmm? -- rowan, 20:35:26 05/24/01 Thu

"No offense, rowan, but um, ewww."

Hey, I told you, I did not mean sexually. That would be disgusting given
both the characters and actors age differences. Let me be totally clear on
that issue. I'm not suggesting Lolita here.

I happen to believe reincarnation. Sometimes, you instantly bond with
someone, even if there's a great age difference between you, or some
difference in circumstance that seems like it would normally preclude a
close friendship. I always feel in those situations that it's souls that
have travelled through time together before finding each other again.

I think that's how I feel about Spike and Dawn.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Be careful what you wish for...it
might come true, hmm? -- Max, 18:37:53 05/25/01 Fri

Buffy was 16 when she met Angel.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Be careful what you wish for...it
might come true, hmm? -- verdantheart, 09:13:22 05/25/01 Fri

The Spike/Dawn relationship has gotten a lot of attention and I think that
this is to a large extent due to the gifts of both actors (amazing, indeed).
Both make their roles more vivid. Put them together in a scene and you
multiply that effect. (I suppose that's why some--not you, rowan!--have
carried this toward eww-land.)

The Spike character was made more and more complex by the additions of pain
and conflicts. Mr Marsters made the transition believable and enabled us to
identify with Spike to the point that we can forgive his stalking and foray
into bot-play. Now he's in for a huge guilt trip. I think the man/monster
conflict will be around indefinitely.

Just my 2 cents.

- vh

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Amazing how all 3 Summers women captured his
heart, hmm? -- rowan, 19:32:14 05/24/01 Thu

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yup..................:):):) -- Rufus, 21:39:48
05/24/01 Thu

He couldn't help himself...but after he made that deal with Buffy in season
two he was a goner...the ep when he had cocoa with Buffys mom was
priceless...he sounded like he could have been one of Buffys friends...when
he tried to lie about being in a band with Buffy....flash forward to bitty
Buffy and you can see this guy is stuck with the Summers girls, like it or
not(and I think he likes). Now we only have to wonder if he will keep his
promise or will he go into a cycle of destruction? Will he ever revert back
to his evil ways....I don't know...and I love the uncertainty.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Too true! -- rowan, 14:05:35 05/25/01 Fri

You know, when you put it that way (looking back on it), you really do have
to say, "boy, that poor guy is a goner and he doesn't even know it yet."

I'm hoping that Spike will channel his guilt in productive ways and won't
succumb to self-pity. I'd like to see my boy earn some respect next season
and not be a whipping boy for every other character (God, sounds like
Xander's problem...).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Buffy reruns on WB on Wed at 9:00 -- Jen C., 18:45:53
05/23/01 Wed

Starting June 6th, I believe. Angel reruns on Mon @ 9:00 starting June 4.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Guess it's time to hand out the hankies.....:) -- Rufus,
18:27:49 05/23/01 Wed

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Maybe I'm a big softie, but -- OnM, 21:19:56 05/23/01 Wed

Two things:

1 > People, keep in mind that there is *us*-- you, me, all of us who live
our lives as devoted fans and post at these boards and hang on every
spoiler-- and then these are just regular, normal viewers of the show (yes,
they exist, and in great quantity).

We just assume everyone is like us, but they aren't. We knew in advance what
was going to happen, they very likely did not. *BUFFY is DEAD* to these
people. They don't expect her to return. The WB kept referring to the show
as the 'Series Finale'. They quite possibly no nothing about UPN picking up
the program, or that SMG has two more years on her contract or any of that
stuff.

You think you're depressed over this plot turn? How many other TV shows can
you recall where the writers killed off not *a* character, but *THE*
character, the one the show is *named after*???

2 > As to my reaction, I was mildly bummed (and again, I *knew* what was
going to happen for 99.5% certain right after that incredible sequence that
opened the show, where they breezed through clips from all the past seasons)
immediately after the show. Later in the evening, after sacking out, I had
trouble getting to sleep. When I woke up this morning (much earlier than my
norm) I actually felt bad, like there was a pressure in my chest, an ache. I
realized that the ending was still in my thoughts, and that I was feeling
very depressed. I was up and around for over an hour before it went away.

***I have a clear understanding of the difference between reality and
fantasy***, I was spoiled pretty badly as to what was going to happen, but
it was like some post-traumatic stress thing had taken hold of me.

So all I can say is, they better damn well bring her back, or I'm gonna be
one very unhappy old geezer! We need and love our heroes, they make life
worth living because they are what we wish we could be.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Need for Heroes -- Brian, 09:16:44 05/24/01 Thu

OnM, I couldn't agree with you more. We need our heroes, (Do we have any in
real life?) and Buffy is a great one. I know I'm not ready to give up my
weekly fix that takes me away from the dull routine of life into a magical
world. Two more years, and maybe movies? One can only hope!
Maybe someone will write a book - Everything I know about Life I learned
from BtVS?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Not the first time a main character was killed in a season
finale, but definitely the best... -- Rob, 09:28:09 05/24/01 Thu

The only other show I can recall that killed off its main character at a
season finale was "Xena: Warrior Princess." At the end of the fourth season,
Xena and Gabrielle, her sidekick, were crucified by the Romans and died.
They were brought back by a holy man and an angel, and it turned out Xena
had died only to be reborn again, with a baby, immaculately conceived. Not
that this has anything to do with how Buffy will return, but I just wanted
to point out that, even though I adored "The Gift" and the entire plot, it
isn't the first time it's been done. I do hope, however, that the resolution
of Buffy will be much more satisfying. Despite the fact that it's a fantasy,
Buffy is always logical in following its own rules. I'm sure Joss knows a
way to explain Buffy's return, and still follow his rule in "Forever" that
you can't ressurect the dead, and if you do it will not be the same person
you loved, but a zombie, or at least something will be wrong with them.
Xena, on the other hand, is a fantasy show that has very few rules, and has
characters die and return with very little logical explanation. That's why
when Xena returned, I excepted it, besides the fact that when a minor
character dies, they never try to bring them back, but if Xena dies, they
do. I always thought that was a double standard and not competely ethically
fair. Buffy, on the other hand, does not break its own rules without an
examination of the morality/ethics/etc.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not the first time a main character was killed in a
season finale, but definitely the best... -- Anthony8, 17:04:58 05/24/01 Thu

Actually, if there was a Hall of Fame for cheap character
kill-offs/resurrections, I have two in mind that may be before your time (at
least with regards to first-run episodes). Back in the 80's, there were two
really popular shows that brought back dead characters and, lost a
substantial segment of loyal viewers as a result.

First there was "Magnum, P.I." a show starring Tom Selleck (recently of
"Friends") about an ex-Vietnam War marine/vet-turned-private detective and
his circle of former war buddies. The show was at the top of its ratings
after a number of years so the producers decided to go out on top. In the
series finale (at least as far as everyone knew at the time), Magnum was
shot and dies. The last scene had him leaving his body and walking off into
the proverbial "white light." It actually wasn't as corny as it sounds.
Well, there was such a fervent fan campaign to un-cancel the series that,
voila, it was back on the air the next season. Magnum was miraculously
revived on the operating table and his "soul" was sucked back from the light
and into his body. After the return episode, the series died a slow two year
death until it was cancelled due to poor ratings.

The all-time infamous character resurrection, however was that of Bobby
Ewing on the primtime soap "Dallas." Patrick Duffy who played Bobby decided
to move on to other projects, so he was killed off in the series season
finale. After a year out in the wilderness, the actor decided to return to
the show. Now "Dallas" had a devoted following and great ratings at the time
and his initial departure from the show had no effect on that. After a year
of well developed story arcs that required consistent viewer attention, the
character is alive and well and taking a shower in the comfort of his own
bathroom. His wife pulls back the shower curtain, and to her relief, Bobby's
death and the entire previous season's plotlines were only a bad dream!
Needless to say, that commenced the ratings decline which eventually killed
the show.

Given the above, I'm glad that JW had this death and resurrection storyline
pre-planned 2 years ago. At least he is not betraying the viewers by
springing something absolutely ridiculous on them. The Buffyverse requires a
certain extra suspension of disbelief on our part, but we participate gladly
because of the metaphysical rewards. We have already experienced the
permanency of physical death with "The Body." As discussed in other posts,
the parental figure must die for the Hero to take the next step in her
evolution. Her next step in this journey was her own spiritual death and
(next season) rebirth. We are supposed to identify with the Hero and take
the journey with her. Consequently, the impact of her mother's death as
opposed to her own should parallel what we would feel under similar
circumstances. Two entirely different types of loss with two completely
different results. And very well done in each case.

And that is our moment in television history for the day.

A8

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Well, I wasn't spoiled on the death, but I knew the UPN scoop
before hand -- Masquerade, 11:08:33 05/24/01 Thu

I know as a Buffy fansite WebMistress, I will do what I can to get the word
out to fans, and will encourage other webmasters I know to do the same. I
already got one letter from a woman in Montreal who knew about the UPN
change but thought maybe that was a false Web-rumor after viewing the "WB
Series Finale" and seeing Buffy die.

BTW, any Montrealers know what station UPN shows appear on? I remember
seeing "Voyager" when I lived up there, but don't remember the station it
was on.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Well, I wasn't spoiled on the death, but I knew the
UPN scoop before hand -- Nina, 20:46:43 05/24/01 Thu

I am from Montreal and "Voyager" is now on CFCF12. From what I can gather tv
stations here buy what they like and it doesn't matter from where they buy
it. I still don't know if I will get Buffy next year.

I'll cross my fingers and keep hoping I guess. :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Trusting Joss -- Mindtrekker, 22:58:54 05/23/01 Wed

First, I have to say that I don't think you can blame the show for your
access to spoiler material. I didn't have any idea that SMG had signed a
contract or that the show was moving to another network. Having watched the
show in that context, I was depressed all day until I read the posts here
about next season. Had it been any more poignant, I might have tried to jump
into a gateway between worlds thingy or whatever it was.

Secondly, I don't think the fact that we know the hero will win is a
reasonable criticism of any story. We ALWAYS know the hero is going to
win..that's why a story is being told about them..you don't tell adventure
stories about losers. (Note that even though Buffy died, she did not lose)
The essense of good storytelling then is the ability of the storyteller to
take us to a deep dark place in which we can't see ahead .. so that even
though we know the hero will win, we nonetheless doubt the outcome. Joss is
an expert at this as you note when you say that you can't see how Buffy can
be brought back.

Frankly, I can't either and it seems like they've written out the characters
most closely linked to Buffy--her mother and Riley--which seems like a sign
that they intend to move on without her. So I'm still in that deep dark
place until Joss shows me the way out, and I can't believe I have to wait
three months for that. In that, lies the tension and the drama--not in the
actual outcome, which I hope is favorable.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Trusting Joss -- MKS, 09:22:07 05/24/01 Thu

Actually, the UPN premier will probably be in OCTOBER (according to Joss),
so you have FIVE months to wait. Have a nice day! :-)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Trusting Joss -- LoriAnn, 09:46:57 05/24/01 Thu

"Actually, the UPN premier will probably be in OCTOBER (according to Joss),
so you have FIVE months to wait. Have a nice day!"

Actually, Joss said this, "I don't know the date. I believe we're looking at
early October, but nothing's been set." So when will it be? The only piece
of information in here that isn't qualified in some way is "nothing's been
set."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Whoo! Guess I'd better clarify... -- Humanitas, 10:33:36 05/24/01
Thu

First of all, let me say that I used plenty of tissues this ep. I'm a big
sucker for noble sacrifice, and going on knowing that you may well be going
to your death. All those little scenes of the gang getting ready, Spike and
Buffy, Xander and Anya, Buffy and Giles, etc. had me tearing up, and crying
right along with everyone else. Where do I sign up for that Softie Club? :)

Mindtrekker, you bring up some very valid points. I guess I was just hoping
that there would be a different solution, since we've seen major characters
die and come back on other shows before. Maybe that's just me going through
the 'anger' stage of the greiving process. ;) I certainly agree that it's
the tension of "how are they going to get out of this," as opposed to "are
they going to get out of this," that is facinating. They made such a big
deal about death being final this season, though, that the deep dark place
seems darker than usual. Joss is a fiend, and I trust him.

It's gonna be a long, long summer...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: My Thoughts On The Gift -- darrenK, 17:07:55 05/23/01 Wed

You're right, it is a great episode. I tried rewatching it tonight and
realised during the "previously..." section that it would be too unbearably
painful.

As I wrote in another thread, I think it's purposeful that we didn't hear
Buffy's conversation with Dawn, just as it's purposeful that we didn't hear
Willow's conversation with Angel.

You see, I think it would spoil us for how Buffy comes back (if she's
actually dead). I think she's told Dawn something that will bring her back
and we are not to know for 3+ months. The wait is going to be a killer.

dK

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> The power of silence -- Solitude0156, 17:23:26 05/23/01 Wed

Remember that Joss didn't let us hear what Buffy said to Dawn in the
hallway, about their Mom, either. It's almost as if he's giving them private
time, as sisters, even while onscreen. And so in some way, by having Buffy's
voiceover while she falls, it seemed (to me) as if she were whispering it
not in her sister's ears, but in mine. As if, somehow, we were supposed to
be experiencing that just-for-us that Dawn had experienced only a minute
before.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: The power of silence -- rowan, 18:48:37 05/23/01 Wed

I loved how they shot the discovery of Buffy's body. First, we see the core
SG -- Giles, Xander (holding Anya), and Willow (holding Tara). The camera
gives them private time to feel their grief.

Then Spike is introduced -- a newer part of the group, but now truly part
('We few, we happy few, we band of brothers, for he today who sheds his
blood with me shall be my brother, be he ne'er so vile, this day shall
gentle his condition' -- good old Joss pulling Shakespeare in!).

Then each character gets some private time for their individual reactions,
and finally Dawn appears.

Powerful.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Cinematically speaking (or more accurately, viewing)... -- OnM,
21:37:50 05/23/01 Wed

...you could form a trilogy of *Fool for Love*, *The Body/Forever* and *The
Gift*, and if you think about it, they essentially tell the whole story of
the season.

These eps are also the most 'cinematic' of all the seasons eps, not a
coincidence, methinks. They are also the most passionate, in the terms that
Angel spoke of it so long ago.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: My Thoughts On The Gift -- Kerri, 19:31:15 05/23/01 Wed

But we did hear their conversation-that's what we heard at the end-I was
just saying I would have liked to see their faces as it was said

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: My Thoughts On The Gift -- OnM, 21:51:02 05/23/01 Wed

It's a judgement call on the part of the writer/director (same person, in
this case), but I think that if you go back and watch the scene in the
future, you may come to find that the method he chose was actually more
powerful.

Those words were Buffy's dying words-- she just didn't make the final leap
off the platform yet-- it would be a physical impossibility to speak to Dawn
while falling through the portal. But we, the audience, need to hear them
*as she is dying*, for they are words of hope, and that's the point-- she
gives her life to give dawn-- and by extension, us-- hope. The events need
to coincide.

Also, there was the synchonicity between the much earlier scene of silence
when she told Dawn of her mother's death (moment of utter despair) to when
she uttered her final words to Dawn at the top of the platform (the gift of
hope).

I really can't think of a single fault in that sequence, or any way to do it
better. You've probably heard me use the phrase 'Perfect Moment of Cinema'
in my Classic Movie column. This was one of those.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: My Thoughts On The Gift -- mundusmundi, 14:47:31 05/24/01
Thu

Agreed. It was an interesting stylistic choice. Most directors probably
would've gone the other way.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Even the music was perfect (not too sappy) -- Anthony8,
16:26:35 05/24/01 Thu

In scenes of this type, the background score can make or break the dramatic
impact. The music playing as Buffy has her moment of clarity and dives into
the portal had just the right amount of poignancy to put a finishing touch
on the perfection of the moment for me. The music sounded familiar (it may
have been used in another episode though I can't recall), but wasn't too
syrupy or even sad. It really captured the resolved calm of the Hero and the
sorrow and shock of separation you see in Dawn's face. Nice piece of work.

A8

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> You're absolutely right, excellent point. The sound and
the visuals... -- OnM, 17:24:12 05/24/01 Thu

...become as one when everything is right, our brains process it as a single
emotional reaction of high intensity, even though the sources are entering
from two different sensory organs. Creating these moments is what seperates
the pros from the wannabes.

I've quoted/paraphrased this before, but it applies: From *Dune*-- "Each
sound has a thought".

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Even the music was perfect (not too sappy) -- rowan,
19:45:45 05/24/01 Thu

The music was fantastic, and it was the same as what played while Dawn had
that incredible scene where she folded her clothes carefully on the chair &
tucked her shoes underneath (reminded me of how suicides prepare for death).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks, rowan. -- OnM, 06:43:01 05/25/01 Fri

I knew that action she was taking with the clothes and shoes was
significant, but I couldn't quite figure it out. Your enlightenment is
appreciated!


Mourning the dead -- Aelith, 14:10:02 05/23/01 Wed

Buffy will be dead for me and many others. I don't get UPN.

And my mourning will now double because I found this board 4 years too late.

I agree that Buffy is the mythic hero, just as Giles called her before
killing what's his name. This is the Sacrifice and Resurrection part of the
cycle.

*sigh*

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Mourning the dead -- Rufus, 17:43:37 05/24/01 Thu

I can only hope that where you live that you may be able to see Buffy. If
you have a channel that gets programs like Voyager and Andomeda, you may
still get Buffy, if not there are ways around not getting UPN like a tape
exchange.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Thank you Rufus -- Aelith, 19:00:54 05/24/01 Thu

You give me hope. If my cable isn't pressured into getting UPN by this Fall,
I'll try your other suggestion. Mean while it looks like I have a lot of
reading to catch up on.

Oh and I appologies for a slight exaggeration. I've only had my computer
since last September.

Still......

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> You are very welcome........:):) -- Rufus, 21:16:25 05/24/01 Thu

Keep coming back.....


That little nagging pinch of humanity -- Rufus, 14:11:32 05/23/01 Wed

We have discussed Ben at length and I have noticed how many people say he is
weak ect, but Glory had a point when she said this last night:

Glory(to Dawn): "What do you have against old Benjy?"

Dawn: "He's a monster. At least you're up front about it."

Glory: "Just don't be so hard on the boy. He just wants to live. Most guys
would do the same. Besides, he's probably the reason your sis and her little
cartoon pals are still alive. That little nagging pinch of humanity that
makes me go for the hurt instead of the kill. Lowering myself to trade blows
with the slayer when I should have just put my fist through her heart. It's
gotta be Ben."

Ben was weak at the end, he chose his life over the survival of humanity.
His fight with himself has been not noticed because we didn't see much of
it. Ben was an innocent who was created to be the vessel of a god. His life
was gone before it began. The fact he was a doctor did have meaning. It may
have been a bit for the pills, but I think that Ben did want to be part of
humanity, he just was never allowed to. His longing to live isn't new, his
choice of self over others isn't new either. But it was his contribution of
humanity to the god that deafeated Glory. Glory would have killed all of the
SG but it was Ben that held her back. Even though in the end he wimped out,
Ben did indirectly help the SG in ways they never knew. Ben gave Glory a
need to help others that she never would have had without Ben. Ben isn't a
hero in the usual sense, but he did contribute to defeating Glory with a
little nagging pinch of humanity.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Spoilers in my post above -- Rufus, 14:12:52 05/23/01 Wed

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: That little nagging pinch of humanity -- Solitude1056, 16:19:16
05/23/01 Wed

And yet, at the same time, Giles recognized what Buffy didn't have time to
process: that despite Ben's insistence that he & Glory would go far away...
Glory would still come back for vengeance. There's nothing that indicates
she's no longer a God. To all indications, as a matter of fact, she's simply
now a God who's trapped here permanently. In that sense, in a wierd way,
killing Ben may have been an inverted act of mercy for Glory - a character
that, like Dawn, I respected at the end for at least being honest about her
motivations and intentions and attitude. That, and she provided some bizarre
humorous moments that made me laugh out loud: "say, did anyone know the
Slayer's a robot?"

As much as I don't like the idea of killing someone now because of their
potential for evil (as the Knights intended to do to Dawn), in Ben's case,
it's a lesser of two evils. To prevent the great risk of later harm, harm
must be done now. Giles made that choice. Yeah, it was an ugly choice and an
ugly consequence, but in his place? I would've done it, with just as little
satisfaction as Giles himself displayed.

Notice, too, that Giles didn't stab Ben, nor break his neck, nor any of the
multiple ways I'm sure the Ripper knows... he just suffocated Ben. It
occured to me, then, as it does now, that somehow Giles - at the same time
he had to be judge, jury, and executioner to relieve Buffy of the
responsibility later - was also protecting Buffy of the knowledge that this
choice had to be made. As far as the rest of the Scoobies will ever know
(I'm guessing), they will think that Glory allowed Ben to come forth when
she felt the body dying, and that Ben is the one who experienced the dying.

Ben was a character shrouded, and we never knew much about his history or
why he did what he did or how he came to be who he is. And we only have
hints of how he felt about it; pretty opaque, even by Joss' standards. So it
seems rather appropriate that his death was also one that will be hidden in
mystery, as far as the rest of the Scoobies are concerned.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Thoughts on... (*Gift* spoilers) -- OnM, 20:56:13 05/23/01 Wed

Giles smothers Ben/Glory, Buffy, while in her fugue state, smothers Dawn?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: That little nagging pinch of humanity -- Wiccagrrl, 22:44:05
05/23/01 Wed

Notice, too, that Giles didn't stab Ben, nor break his neck, nor any of the
multiple ways I'm sure the Ripper knows... he just suffocated Ben. It
occured to me, then, as it does now, that somehow Giles - at the same time
he had to be judge, jury, and executioner to relieve Buffy of the
responsibility later - was also protecting Buffy of the knowledge that this
choice had to be made. As far as the rest of the Scoobies will ever know
(I'm guessing), they will think that Glory allowed Ben to come forth when
she felt the body dying, and that Ben is the one who experienced the dying.

The thing with that is, though, that it leaves it looking like Ben died of
his injuries. Injuries Buffy inflicted (on Glory, yes, but still...) She
made the choice to spare him, because she couldn't bring herself to finish
him off. Giles was able to (and made, I think, the right decision) But, if
she had survived, would Giles have let Buffy think Ben had died
(inadvertantly) because of her actions? In Buffy's mind, I think she saw Ben
as being in a very similar situation to Dawn. She didn't know about Ben's
betrayal of Dawn, or about the Queller Demon. Would Giles have eventually
have had to tell her what really happened? Once the battle was over, would
she have accepted, maybe even been relieved, that Ben hadn't survived?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: That little nagging pinch of humanity -- Shiver, 16:35:47 05/23/01
Wed

I actually read that differently. Not that Ben's touch of humanity was
making Glory compassionate - but that it was making her more sadistic and
cruel. I think back to Glory's speech to Dawn in the prior ep about humanity
and how people all over were shooting up, shooting each other, suffering and
causing others to suffer. I think that Glory's remark about her little bit
of humanity was meant to reflect that viewpoint, and not that humanity was a
positive thing.


The nature of Glory -- Sam of Seneca, 14:20:27 05/23/01 Wed

I've wondered what Glory represents since the character appeared last year.
I believe she's a dramatic and essential component of the story and its
universe. But I also believe that the "creator" of Glory is saying something
else: I'm absolutely convinced that the person who originally "wrote" Glory
has had substantial experience with someone who suffers from Borderline
Personality Disorder. Every time she appears, and last night was no
exception, I am more certain of this. Any thoughts?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: The nature of Glory -- Rufus, 19:11:13 05/23/01 Wed

Would you like to tell me why you believe that Glory represents a borderline
personality as opposed to say a narcissistic personality disorder?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: The nature of Glory -- Sam of Seneca, 20:32:17 05/23/01 Wed

Rage, "splitting," projection, poorly supported internal sense of self,
"sexualizing". . . . In a sense it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other,
though violent mood swings and character's gender indicate BPD is more
likely than NPD--at least as I read it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: The nature of Glory -- Mindtrekker, 22:41:30 05/23/01 Wed

I've been wondering if Glory doesn't perhaps represent the various threats
to the show's future? Just as Dawn perhaps represents each new day the show
continues to air.

Consider that Glory is a vain, self-absorbed being who feeds off the mental
energies of others. A television executive perhaps?

And why the name Glory?? That's an interesting question.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: The nature of Glory -- Rufus, 22:48:51 05/23/01 Wed

Oh no, I never saw it that way...LOL....television executive.


Jackpot! (long) -- Solitude1056, 19:39:39 05/23/01 Wed

If you want to follow along, I found a nifty website here.

Basically, it helps you outline a hero's journey, using the classic steps as
defined by Campbell & his sort. (And yes, you can enter the character & her
life story, and it'll help you outline the story in a series of steps.) The
following are the basic steps, divided into three movements, and each step
includes the suggestions from the web page about how to
define/outline/identify the step. I've added notes of where I think each
step occured in the BtVS cycle, and wow... it lines up rather nicely, if you
think about. Any/all input is welcome! :)

DEPARTURE
1. The Call to Adventure
What stage of life is he or she in? What do you see coming next for this
person? What would cause the person to leave this stage, to "leave home"?
What is the person doing when the call comes? Is it an accident, a blunder,
something planned, or hoped for? Is it anticipated or dreaded?
Pre-season 1, Buffy receives Slayer spirit/calling.

2. Refusal of the Call
Does the hero refuse the call? If so, what motivates the refusal? Obligation
and duty, fear, a sense of inadequacy to take on the quest, a dread or
dislike of the task to be taken on? Is the person ready to leave home, to
accept adult status? If not, why?
Season 1-2.

3. Supernatural Aid
What special friends or helpers does the hero have? Does the hero receive
some magical help, advice, or talisman from someone wise and benevelont? Is
there someone who helps them prepare to leave on their journey? Is it a one
time assistance, or will the helper (or helpers) appear throughout the
journey? Is the helper an internal aspect of the hero?
Season 1-on. Specifically Angel, then later Whistler.

4. Crossing of the First Threshold
What world is being left; what world is being entered? What or who is
guarding the threshold? What obstacles must the hero overcome to truly begin
the journey? Limits of home or society, limits of personality, limits of
perception, physical limits? What events cause the person to cross the
threshold? What is the threshold and how does the person cross it?
Season 2. Angelus' death & Buffy's love as obstacle.

5. Belly of the Whale
Is the person ready to transform? Does he or she enter the belly of the
whale willingly, or is he or she thrust into or captured in that place? What
self is being left? The self of childhood? Of incomplete or unfulfilled
adulthood? An outgrown self? What self is the person moving toward? What
will symbolize this stage in the story?
Interlude between Season 2 & 3; Season 3.

INITIATION
1. The Road of Trials
Given this person's background and experience, what kinds of trials or
ordeals make sense for him or her? What would be truly challenging for this
person? What does the person fear and how will this fear be represented to
him or her? What does the person consider to be obstacles to progress or
growth? Does the person have some personality or character traits that will
be mirrored back to him or her in a challenging way? What strategies,
skills, insights, known or unknown strengths or talents, etc, does the
person use or develop to survive or resolve these trials? What assistance,
seen or unseen does the person have or receive to deal with these trials?
Season 4. Freshman year in college.

2. The Meeting with the Goddess
How will this step be represented in the story? Does the person have a soul
mate, an other half? Does an all loving god or goddess, or non-gendered but
supremely loving force make itself known to the person? Can the person
accept and/or identify with the ultimate creative/destructive nature of the
universe? Does the person begin to understand or experience the union of
opposites, for example spiritual/material, good/bad, male/female,
life/death, etc.
Restless. The first slayer (assuming that "supremely loving" does not
contradict "vicious killer").

3. Woman as the Temptress
Given this person's background and experience, what kinds of temptations
make sense for him or her? Is this person on a spiritual journey, will he or
she experience the temptations of the flesh? Are there habitual patterns of
thought or behavior that serve to undermine, or tempt the person from his or
her path?
Season 5. Glory, the deathwish.

4. Atonement with the Father (Mother)
How does the person resolve him or herself with the sources of control and
power in his or her life? What experiences mark the person as ready to take
on the new roles of his or her transformed self? What behaviors, attitudes,
relationships, dependencies, body parts, must be sacrificed to achieve this?

Season 5. Joyce's illness & death.

5. Apotheosis
Given this person's background and experience, what would heaven be for him
or her? What does this person know or experience now that is beyond good and
evil, male and female, life and death? Does the person give him or herself a
moment to bask in the glow of what has been achieved?
Season 5. Seeking peace/ending of fighting; knowledge that sister's love
overrules world's needs.

6. The Ultimate Boon
Given this person's background and experience, what would be the goal of his
or her quest? What is the ultimate boon for this person? Was there a stated
goal of the quest? If so has it changed? Has the person learned more or less
than he or she expected? What are the rewards of this person's journey? What
relationship does this person now have to his or her own immortality, gods,
or god-like figures?
End of Season 5. Buffy's death/coma/transformation, achieving end to
fighting thus peace.

Now you get to fill in the blanks for the next season...

RETURN
1. Refusal of the Return
Does the person refuse to come back to everyday life? Is the person
concerned that their message won't be heard, or that their gifts will be
unappreciated, or that the wisdom gained can not be communicated?
2. The Magic Flight
Are there obstacles to the person's returning to normal life? Given this
person's background and experience, what kink or obstacle would make sense
or be especially difficult or suiting to his or her situation? Will these
obstacles further enlighten us about either the person, their quest, or
their boon?
3. Rescue from Without
Must the person be rescued from their journey? Can their original guides and
assistants still help them?
4. Crossing of the Return Threshold
What marks the person's return to normal life? What challenges does the
person face in integrating the experience of the quest into his or her life?
Can/does the person share his or her experiences and the wisdom gained from
them with others? How do others receive the person upon the return?
5. Master of the Two Worlds
Given this person's background and experience, what would represent the two
worlds in his or her life? Does this person demonstrate his or her mastery
of both the spiritual and material, the inner and outer worlds?
6. Freedom to Live
Does the person achieve the ability let go of the fear of death, to live in
the moment, to neither anticipate the future nor regret the past?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Jackpot! (long) -- Rufus, 22:54:48 05/23/01 Wed

Hey, thanks for the site...it's quite an experience.

I wonder if Buffy will have to go through the Rescue from Without? That
would make for a great 2 hour season opener.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Nicely done -- darrenK, 05:48:49 05/24/01 Thu

Very cool.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Jackpot! (long) -- mundusmundi, 08:11:55 05/24/01 Thu

Great site. A good book that deals with this subject is Chris Vogler's _The
Writer's Journey_, which takes Campbell's thesis and applies it to feature
films. He also abbreviates and clarifies some of the stages, so it reads a
little more smoothly. It goes like this:

Act One: 1. Ordinary World. 2. Call to Adventure. 3. Refusal of the Call. 4.
Meeting with the Mentor. 5. Crossing the First Threshold.

Act Two: 6. Tests, Allies, Enemies. 7. Approach to the Inmost Cave.

Act Three: 8. The Road Back. 9. Resurrection. 10. Return with the Elixir.

Looks like our heroine is poised right before Resurrection.

Vogler also goes into a lot of detail about Jungian archetypes, which are
interestingly applied to the Buffyverse: Hero, Mentor, Threshold Guardian,
Herald, Shapeshifter, Shadow, Trickster. Lots of variations and blends and
ambiguities there.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Jackpot! (long) -- Humanitas, 10:47:58 05/24/01 Thu

Wow! Great post and great site! Thanks for the tip.

Question: would you include the Scoobies under Supernatural help?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Jackpot! (long) -- Solitude1056, 12:51:14 05/24/01 Thu

I did, just because it definitely seems like the Scoobies have always
represented the "best parts" of Buffy herself: head, heart, mind, hand, etc,
etc.

And then I went & read purplegirl's original post on heros... it's a bit
easier (now that we're later in the cycle) but I'm still tempted to repost
her post just as a corrollary, except that then it'd reveal MY post for the
pathetic knock-off that it really is.

bwahahahaha. :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Spirit, Heart and Mind -- Avatar 2001, 16:08:29 05/29/01 Tue

Willow - Spirit/Spiritus
Xander - Heart/Animus
Giles - Mind/Sophus

From -Primeval

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> hero's journey -- purplegrrl, 14:32:05 05/30/01 Wed

Well, I did have an advantage - I got to hear Christopher Vogler lecture on
his book "A Writer's Journey" about 15 months ago. (Hey, repost away!!)

I think it's kind of interesting that when I originally posted about the
hero's journey I'm not sure that people saw the "big picture" of how it
applied to the Buffyverse. Well, that and that was when Spike was starting
to do some rather un-vampire-like things and a lot of people wanted to
insert Spike into the hero role. We ended up with ATLtS (All Threads Lead to
Spike).

For me, Spike's role is changeable - villain, trickster, mentor, gate
guardian, maybe even hero. But the story is about Buffy, she is the hero.
Now that Buffy has made the ultimate sacrifice for family, friends, the
world, a lot more people are seeing Buffy's journey as that of the hero. But
the "Death" in the hero's journey is not necessarily death of the physical
body. It can be death of an idea, a way of thinking or reacting, a view of
the world, etc.

We know Buffy will be returning from the dead (but not exactly how). This is
similar to several Greek myths where someone goes to the underworld to beg
the release of their loved one (the story of Orpheus is one) - classic hero
stories. Will this be the way Buffy is returned to us? Who knows. Maybe
Giles will make this perilous journey to retrieve Buffy. Maybe Willow will
try (will Tara let her?). Will Buffy come back as Buffy the young woman (no
super powers or fated duty) or Buffy the Vampire Slayer (hardcore slayer
since "the best part of her" is now Dawn)?? Will she gain something useful
from her experience? Will she be able to use that knowledge?

Joss has said that Buffy will be different when she returns, so I think all
bets are off.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: hero's journey -- LoriAnn, 15:21:51 06/01/01 Fri

If Dawn is made from the best part of Buffy, does that necessarily mean that
Buffy, herself, is whatever was left over after Dawn was made? I doubt it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> the best part -- purplegrrl, 07:45:54 06/04/01 Mon

I think what Buffy meant when she said that Dawn was the best part of her
was that Dawn could be a young woman without having to deal with all the
weirdness of being the Slayer. Most of Buffy's angst and ruined
relationships stem directly from her duties as the Slayer. As much as Buffy
has embraced her Slayer-hood, there is still a part of her that wants to be
a normal, non-superpowered person. She sees Dawn as that part of herself. To
Buffy that part is the best part of herself.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Mother Death/Daughter death -- darrenK, 12:54:32 05/24/01 Thu

After reading this post and the TVguide online interview with Joss, it
occured to me that one of the reasons Joyce died was to show the audience
that when an ordinary person dies, death is final.

Even in the Buffyverse.

But when a hero dies, that's different. Or will be.

I wonder if Angel clues the Scoobies into the resurrection of Darla? Or if
Willow performs the resurrection from the Darkest magics?

I just hope it doesn't end up as a Pet Semetary (poor attempt at the Stephen
King spelling)thing where Buffy is resurrected as some sort of
shuffling,drooling maggot-eaten, half-zombie. Even if she recovers from
that, it would be too depressing. America already has too few heros, there's
no need to trash the one we've got. dK

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Not all heroes come back. -- Solitude1056, 19:40:32 05/24/01 Thu

Doyle died - and rather poignantly, too, given the short time he was on the
show - and as a hero, at that. So far (despite significant begging from
fans), there's been no return. Not all heroes come back. Sheesh, come to
think of it, just how many have died & returned, short of CPR? (Which, in my
book, doesn't really count - that's only a few seconds, really.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> None, unless you count Angel's trip to hell as death! -- Avatar
2001, 16:15:54 05/29/01 Tue

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Mother Death/Daughter death -- maddog, 20:19:24 05/30/01 Wed

What I found interesting in that tvguide article was how Joss said, Buffy
will be back and we'll explain why she will be back and why Joyce won't.
Cause that's gonna be huge at first, no matter what way she comes back the
immediate thought is, well then why not bring Joyce back that way too. And
then the fallout when Buffy and Dawn realize they can't bring their mother
back that way.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Jackpot! (long) -- Justin, 15:30:15 05/29/01 Tue

Thanks Solitude. I appreciate that list. I printed it and I think I'll end
up referencing it often for many things.

J


Joss interview on TV Guide.Com -- rpcvc76, 01:13:34 05/24/01 Thu

I found on tv guide online, that Joss recently answered more questions about
"The Gift", UPN move, Sarah staying, Buffy being *really* dead and rotting
in her grave as we speak (his words), and other extra good info.

http://www.tvguide.com/newsgossip/insider/010524a.asp

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Joss interview on TV Guide.Com -- verdantheart, 06:58:39 05/24/01 Thu

Early October?! Can we wait?!

Well, at least it will give me more time to find some way of getting UPN!

- vh

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Hey, what happened to early return in August?! -- rowan, 19:25:16
05/24/01 Thu

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Joss the god give hope and ... -- purplegrrl, 09:06:59 05/24/01 Thu

Tantalizing interview. Joss gives some straight answers and leaves others
dangling just out of reach.

I read in another interview (I think BtVS the Offical Magazine) that Joss
had the end of Season 5 planned since about Season 3.

We're not worthy!!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Joss the god give hope and ... -- Humanitas, 10:58:57 05/24/01 Thu

So let me see if I have this straight:

1. Buffy is dead.
2. Death is not final.
3. There's gonna be grieving, and then a litteral resurection of the slayer,
and all will be explained in an honest, 'real,' non-cheesy way.

AAaugh! Joss makes my brain hurt, and it is good!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Joss the god give hope and ... -- rowan, 19:30:28 05/24/01 Thu

"3. There's gonna be grieving, and then a litteral resurection of the
slayer, and all will be explained in an honest, 'real,' non-cheesy way."

Didn't he say rebirth? Maybe there's not a difference, but resurrection
implies something different to me than rebirth. Resurrection almost means
restoring what was there before, but rebirth means becoming like a child
again. I feel like there's a clue there to how this will be done (especially
since her body is rotting, it would be gross to resurrect it), but I'm too
thick to figure it out.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Joss the god give hope and ... -- FanMan, 21:57:54 05/24/01
Thu

Maby the clue is that Joss said the slayer would be ressurected instead of
saying Buffy?
I'm too thick to add more...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Joss the god gives hope and ... -- purplegrrl, 08:04:47
05/25/01 Fri

And then it's always possible that Joss is using the words "rebirth" and
"resurrection" interchangably - either to throw us for a loop or because
that's just what comes out of his mouth at the time.

Should be an interesting ride.


Buffy, you are the weakest link... goodbye! -- Manoon, 01:47:36 05/24/01 Thu

Of course, I'm only kidding...

hmmmm, so who IS the weakest link, then?

(no, it's NOT Tara!)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Weakest links -- LoriAnn, 05:39:10 05/24/01 Thu

Each of the Scoobies is weak in some way or other, even Buffy. To name one
or another the "weakest link" would be to ignore their strengths and,
particularly, their strengths combined. Each character performs a function
in the Scoobies and in the structure of the stories. Anya, for instance, is
usually comic relief, but this week, although her take-the-
bull-by-the-horns attitude irritated almost everyone, it was she who got
things off dead center when all anyone could do was get upset over killing
or not killing Dawn. In her own way, she took Willow's role from the
previous week. She had the strength to be practical when practicality was
what was called for.
Each of the SG functions in ways to add to the whole, and the whole is
greater than the sum of the parts. If there is a weakness, it is an overall
weakness and probably that they all care too much.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> I like that answer! Yes I do! :) -- Rob, 07:58:02 05/24/01 Thu

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> hmmm -- Manoon, 09:05:54 05/24/01 Thu

Not really what I meant though. I chose the word 'weakest' cos I'm a Brit
and you just got our dreadful show with that dreadful woman - i am SO SO
SORRY!!

anyway, what I was really getting at is many people post often about who
their FAVOURITE characters are, and why. I was just curious to know the
other side of the coin.. who is NOT liked (or better: who is LEAST liked),
and why?

Just as it is a good thing to have favourite characters among the buffyverse
in general, it's equally valid to not warm to others. It's not an insult to
the show, to the meanings behind the metaphors we love to interpret, or to
anyone else's posts...

For example, I'm not a huge fan of Spike's dodgy English accent! Or Willow
when she witters (tho Assertive Willow is cool). And I feel there is so much
more Xander can do, so why make him so goofy all the time? I don't relate
very well to him because of this.

Thats the kind of thing I was getting at, I guess

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: hmmm -- Rob, 09:15:38 05/24/01 Thu

IMO, the weakest link was Riley...I always thought he was whiney and a
little too possessive over Buffy. That jealousy over Angel was ridiculous.
Over all, his personality just annoyed me.
But luckily, he was voted off, in a manner of speaking. You are the weakest
link. Goodbye, Iowa! LOL.
And so right now I love the entire cast to bits and pieces!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: hmmm -- FanMan, 15:07:47 05/24/01 Thu

I agree Rily screwed up; Buffy's love is for everyone. She loves Angel? no
jealosy from me, I would be happy if Buffy were my friend, even a smile
would make my day......Sarah has a beutifull smile! Rily was loved by Buffy,
he complained she did not love him enough.

I would be satisfied with just a smile from Buffy...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: hmmm -- verdantheart, 07:47:25 05/25/01 Fri

How about Spike with a southern accent (as was contemplated)?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> maybe -- Manoon, 08:12:39 05/25/01 Fri

or a nice French accent... or an Indian one! :)

I guess it's not so bad (that means that I am used to it) Druscilla's UK
voice is MILES more dodgy than his!


Gaining Knowledge/understanding -- Kerri, 07:47:50 05/24/01 Thu

Bear with me her:
Charaters seem to gain a certain amount of understanding from being removed
from reality, soctiety, etc. I guess the best way to explain is by giving
examples:

1)Crazy people: Gain a new perspective by being removed from reality. Only
people who can see the key. Also there is a sort of wisdom that seems to
come with being crazy-ex)Tara calling Giles a killer in The Gift.

2) The Desert: The desert is removed from society. It is here we see the
Spirit quest and the knowledge gained in Restless.

3) Dreams: Again being removed from reality. Well the best example of corse
is restless, also Buffy has had many dreams that serve as prophesies-ex) in
season 2 Angel dying, Hush, etc.

4) Death: seems to be as removed as person can get, completely seperate from
life itself. In Prophesy Girl Buffy died for a few seconds and when she came
back there was something different: Xander tells her she's still weak and
she say no she feel good, strong, there was some enlightenment that came
from that moment of death.

I'd have to imagine a great deal of knowledge, understanding, enlightenment
will come to Buffy as a result of her death. However, this may not be
knowledge meant to be in this world, and it will be interesting to see how
Buffy is changed when she returns.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Gaining Knowledge/understanding -- Rufus, 12:49:27 05/24/01 Thu

I find that the insane frighten us because even though removed from reality
they often say things that make complete sense. You can't get much further
from reality than death. What will Buffys experience of death be? With Angel
we know he was removed from this reality but he didn't "die"....will she see
her mother...not want to come back? In FFL Buffy feared the death that has
chased her from season one. In dying that is the one fear she will
conquer....you can't fear death when you know what is to come....unless you
went somewhere very unpleasant.


Read this: Joss' interview w/ TV Guide about what's gonna happen next
season... -- Rob, 09:09:39 05/24/01 Thu

Here's the link where I got the interview from:
http://www.tvguide.com/newsgossip/insider/

-------------------------------------------------------

TVGO: First off, is Buffy really dead?

Whedon: Yes. She's rotting in her grave even as we speak.

TVGO: But Sarah's coming back?

Whedon: Yes.

TVGO: You can understand how some people might be confused...

Whedon: Yes.

TVGO: Are you worried about alienating viewers by bringing her back from the
dead? I mean, we saw the tombstone.

Whedon: Yes, I'm always worried about that. The point is, you have to take
it seriously and pay it homage and make it as hard and strange for the
people in the show as it is for the audience to accept. Then you earn it.

TVGO: If you bring Buffy back, then why couldn't you also bring back Joyce?

Whedon: You could, but we'll explain why.

TVGO: What's the craziest Buffy resurrection scenario you've heard in the
last 48 hours?

Whedon: Buffy shows up in an alternate universe, but I don't think that's a
good idea.

TVGO: You already know how this will be resolved, then?

Whedon: We've had next season planned out for a long time - before we even
knew we were changing networks.

TVGO: Do you think, in retrospect, it's a little confusing? First Buffy
leaves the WB, and now Buffy is dead. Some fans are wondering if the show is
over.

Whedon: It's our job this summer to make people aware that Buffy - starring
Sarah Michelle Gellar as Buffy - is coming back on UPN next fall. And I'm
just gonna keep saying it to everybody I meet and every chance I get, and
UPN is going to start advertising it today. We'll get the word out.

TVGO: Do you think the WB purposely added that farewell message at the end
of the episode to further confuse people?

Whedon: You know, it was sort of incredibly classy and slightly underhanded.
The whole "Series Finale" thing has been a little cheesy, but actually, I
was pretty touched when I saw the message. The fact of the matter is they
didn't say, "Goodbye. It's over." They said, "Thank you." So, at the end of
the day, I thought that was kind of nice.

TVGO: If and when the day comes that Sarah leaves the show, would you
retitle it Dawn the Vampire Slayer?

Whedon: What I would do with it is hard to say, but that's certainly a show
I'd watch. Michelle [Trachtenberg] is a powerhouse. I have the best ensemble
that I could ever hope to work with. It could happen, but if it did, it
wouldn't be for years because Sarah's coming back.

TVGO: Did anyone else die during the climax? Anya looked like she was in
pretty bad shape.

Whedon: She's OK, she made it.

TVGO: What was up with Giles killing Ben? Is that going to be the beginning
of a trend?

Whedon: No, that's just the thing he had to do. And you know, Giles will be
recurring next year instead of a regular because [Anthony Stewart Head is]
going to live in England. We're working on a BBC [spinoff] show for [that
character]. So, it's a side of Giles you're more likely to see on his show
than you are on Buffy. But, it's not like he's going to become an evil
killer or anything.

TVGO: Does Ben's death mean Glory is dead too?

Whedon: Yeah, it does.

TVGO: Whose voice was telling Spike to go rescue Dawn? It was a very Star
Wars-type moment.

Whedon: It was Willow... Just yet another example of how Willow's power is
increasing.

TVGO: Given that Buffy's death factored into Angel's finale, won't you have
to kick off the season with some type of WB/UPN crossover?

Whedon: No, I really won't. And I'm not entirely sure that either network
would want to. Not that Angel won't be dealing with the idea of Buffy's
death and her rebirth, but the fact is, he's on his own now. He's at the big
scary network by himself and he's going to have other very pressing matters
to deal with.

TVGO: So you won't pick up Angel next fall where the season finale left off?

Whedon: No. Like we usually do, it will be a few months later.

TVGO: Do you know the date of Buffy's two-hour premiere?

Whedon: I don't know the date. I believe we're looking at early October, but
nothing's been set.

TVGO: Will Amber Benson (Tara) be added to the opening credits next season?

Whedon: No, Amber's going to stay at a recurring status. But she will, like
this year, be in most of the shows.

TVGO: Any other cast changes on Buffy?

Whedon: Apart from Giles becoming a recurring character? No.
-----------------------------------------------------

A lot of information to process! LOL. I personally am even more intrigued
about how they'll bring Buffy back than before. I'm especially interested to
know why Buffy could be brought back, but Joyce can't.
And I'm also still wondering why Amber won't be in the opening
credits...James got in the opening credits only 2 or 3 weeks after the chip
was implanted, Michelle, on her 2nd episode had her name in the credits,
Mark midseason did also, Anya got onto the credits finally this season...Why
not Amber already?
Anyway, any of you guys have any thoughts on the stuff I raised questions
about or anything in the article in general?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Oops! I made a little goof... -- Rob, 09:11:20 05/24/01 Thu

I said all the actors' names for getting on opening credits, but said "Anya"
instead of "Emma." Not a big deal, but just thought I should fix that... :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Oops! I made a little goof... -- Manoon, 09:18:20 05/24/01 Thu

So Tara ISN'T going to be on the main credits, she's again resigned to
'recurring character' mode, but will be in most of the episodes.. why? I
don't get it?

Hasn't she earned full status already? I was convinced she had a greater
part to play next season (although thinking about it, she did feature well
from the second half of series 5 onwards) to be the light to Willows coming
darkness... now I am a little less confident :(

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Come on, Joss! We want more Tara!!! -- Rob, 09:29:40 05/24/01 Thu

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Recurring Tara -- Humanitas, 11:11:06 05/24/01 Thu

I'm not sure, but I think there are usually contract issues involved in this
sort of thing. Anyone know?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Don't get it. Wish the interviewer had asked the obvious followup ?
-- Wiccagrrl, 21:47:12 05/24/01 Thu

Why???

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Don't get it. Wish the interviewer had asked the obvious
followup ? -- purplegrrl, 08:41:35 05/25/01 Fri

Maybe recurring character status is at Amber's request. She has other
interests. She recently filmed an independent film (with James Marsters if I
remember correctly). And she is supposed to write a Buffy comic for Dark
Horse.

Maybe it's just a case of too many irons in too many fires and she doesn't
want to stretch herself too thin.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Don't get it. Wish the interviewer had asked the obvious
followup ? -- verdantheart, 09:20:36 05/25/01 Fri

That's Chance, a comedy, classified as in production at imdb.com, for those
interested.


Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded) -- mundusmundi, 10:14:23
05/24/01 Thu

POTENTIALLY SPOILERY AND TEDIOUSLY LONG-WINDED ;)....

This year, like all Buffy years, we've seen some recurring themes: family,
mortality, duality, sacrifice, and other motifs mentioned by many of you in
many excellent posts. Any ideas for what might emerge next season? Here are
a few personal thoughts:

1. Disunity. Now that the Slayer is gone, however temporarily, what happens
to the rest of the group? We've seen this play out before -- the start of
B3, with Buffy's self-imposed exile and friction-packed return, and B5, with
college-life and the Initiative creating barriers between the Gang -- but
this may be the strongest test yet on the glue that holds the Scoobs'
together.

2. The Evil Within. Many of the gang have dark sides that have the potential
to be unleashed. Willow's witchery, Anya (still brooding over her line from
_Restless_: "This'll be a big year for vengeance"), Giles's Ripperocity,
Spike, natch. Even Buffy, when she returns: What will her moral compass be?

3. Cheating (and Cheapening) Death. Some have already expressed the
understandable worry that B's return, however it's done, will cheapen the
sacrifice. Knowing Joss -- creatively-speaking, not personally ;) -- he will
likely address this issue within the show itself. That it's going to happen,
one way or another, makes it seem likely to be a big theme, maybe *the*
theme next season. And finally...

4. Duty. Will Buffy still be the Slayer? Will she still want to be? Will she
have to contend with a new Slayer and what will her response be? (I know,
I've read some folks claim that for whatever reason a new Slayer can't or
won't be activated, but frankly I don't see Joss letting the opportunity
pass by.)

Looking forward to your ideas, and to next season....

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded) -- Malandanza,
10:56:21 05/24/01 Thu

Except for the disunity issue, I agree with everything you've said.

Unity: I think that Buffy's death will serve to bring the Scoobies closer
together. There is potential for chaos (consider Xander's comment about
smart girls being sexy and Willow's flirtatious response) but disunity has
been done. Even in the Xander/Willow area, as soon as Anya and Xander are
married, the sublimated romance between them will finally be at an end. And
there's dawn to consider -- what happens to her? will Child Protective
Services finally track down Hank (and if they do, why would he move to
Sunnydale?) or will she end up a ward of the court? She could be adopted by
a married couple (like Anya and Xander), but I don't really see another way
to keep her on the show. More than anything else, Dawn's continued presence
would keep the group together. (By the way, even if Buffy returns, she'll be
legally dead and unable to gain custody of Dawn).

Evil Within: Particularly where Willow is concerned. Previously, Buffy, Oz
and Tara have expressed grave concerns about her magic -- but now that
Willow's magic has been instrumental in saving the world, they can no longer
argue about its danger. essentially, she has carte blanche to continue to
delve into Darkest Magicks. I don't think Buffy will return dark (although I
would definately be interested in seeing a darker Buffy), instead, I think
she will return as an even purer version of herself.

Cheating/Cheapening Death: It's hard to imagine how they could do the series
with Buffy dead but keeping SMG on the show -- Ok, they could do a
retrospective one week, some dream sequences, the Buffybot (yuck!), they
could even have an episode where the Scoobies sit around wondering "What
Would Buffy Do?", then have a seance to find out. But, eventually, they have
to bring her back -- and bring her back in such a way that it is clear that
Buffy's is a one-time only ressurrection. However she returns, her sacrifice
has been cheapened. Balancing this is that we might get insights into the
afterlife in the Buffyverse when she returns from the "undiscovered
country." And she becomes a hero like Heracles or Odysseus once she's
complete her trip to the underworld.

Duty: I'd like to see a return of Buffy without her powers. I have a problem
with yet another slayer being called and Buffy still keeping her powers --
three slayers? Actually, I think another slayer will be called -- here's
why: Initially, Buffy had the connection with the First Slayer -- she lost
it when she briefly died (but kept the powers). Kendra then had that
connection. At this point, if Buffy had died, another slayer would not have
been called. Kendra's death passed the connection on to Faith, who, because
she did not have Kendra's training or Buffy's force of spirit, was more
susceptible to the influence of the First Slayer, and, thus, a darker
slayer. Buffy reconnected to the First Slayer in season 4, severing Faith's
connection in the process -- now Buffy has the dark impulses while Faith has
a chance to atone. If Faith dies, I don't think a new slayer will be called
(Buffy has stolen Faith's birthright)-- but I do think that Buffy's death
will call the next slayer. Perhaps Buffy will be the watcher for her new
protege.

Oh, and you're not long-winded on this board until you reach your 5th page
of writing :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded) -- Rob, 12:29:38
05/24/01 Thu

I found your comments very interesting, but I have a few problems with them.
Firstly, I don't agree that it cheapens Buffy's sacrifice were she to come
back. Or it depends on how it is done. I will reserve my judgment for next
season. However, considering that Joss has had the entire outcome planned
for a long time, I see Buffy's death as a predestined occurence that is
necessary for her to complete her hero's journey. Many heroes in mythology
had to go down into the "belly of the beast," i.e. die to be reborn stronger
and greater. When they sacrifice themselves, they do not know they will be
able to return. Buffy jumped with no knowledge for all we know that she has
any way of returning. Therefore, her return I think should be considered a
reward for this self-sacrifice, not a cheapening.
I also disagree with your opinion that Buffy's death will call on another
slayer, although we'll have to wait to see for that as well. We have seen on
the show that the Slayer powers are not a single force that occupies one
girl, then goes onto another when that one dies, evidenced by the fact that
when Buffy was revived, she retained the Slayer powers even when Kendra was
called. After Kendra's death, Faith had the slayer powers. I don't believe
her "going bad" prevents Faith from being the one to call the next slayer,
for two reasons: (1) Faith has begun to redeem herself now. (2) Presumably,
only one girl can pass on the powers when she dies, or from now on there
will be 2 slayers. If it were anything else, Buffy could be killed, revived,
killed, revived, etc just in order to bring forth a whole army of Slayers,
each one of whom would have the power to call a slayer themselves. I don't
think it could possibly work that way, or it would have already been done.
No, I believe each slayer can die only once in order to fit into the rules
of then calling another slayer. If they are revived, they fit outside the
accepted rules. They can, as Buffy was up till now, continue to fight and
protect the world as the Slayer, but their death will not call another.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Spoiler from another source... -- Wisewoman, 14:52:58 05/24/01
Thu

How consistent is Joss within the various segments of the Buffyverse? The
reason I'm asking is that I read an interview where he spoke about writing a
Buffy-related comic book that would take place 300 years in the future, and
centre around the FIRST slayer to be called since Buffy Summers (which right
there is inconsistent, because of Kendra and Faith...)

Of course, he could just have been joking, but under what circumstances
would there be no need for a new slayer for 300 years? Buffy comes back
immortal and lives that long? All the vampires die of some sort of plague
and there's no need for a slayer? Gotta love that Joss, he always keeps me
guessing... ;o)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy returning -- FanMan, 16:35:14 05/24/01 Thu

"You think you know what you are, what is to come. You haven't even begun"

Buffy is on the path of self/slayer discovery that other slayers chose not
to follow or did not survive long enough to start. She has shown a
willingness to seek more than the lameness of the WC line of the Slayers
being servants of the Watchers. Her story is a modern eqivilant of the
mythic hero stories of legend. Ressurecting a slayer who is simply a warrior
would be cheap; Buffy has allways presurved her humanity and now she has
moved on to the spiritual aspects of slayerness so she is a heroic figure
beyond the normal heroism of the "average slayer" and ressurecting her is
not cheap. I am curious how it will be done and if it will be slightly
cheesy, however since Joss planned this for two years he has had a loooooong
time to figure out somthing that will make sense...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy returning -- Rufus, 17:27:36 05/24/01 Thu

Hey! Maybe that's what the chees man really represents....all the fan
complaints of cheesy endings.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Cheese man was a warning that there would be
"something cheesy going on" -- FanMan, 19:02:16 05/24/01 Thu

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy returning -- rowan, 19:22:26 05/24/01 Thu

Yes, I thought the cheese man was Joss's little joke on us and our fear of
cheesiness (inexplicably spelled with a z as he said in one interview).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> future slayer -- purplegrrl, 09:19:07 05/25/01 Fri

Concerning the Slayer comic Joss is writing for Dark Horse:
As I understand it there is a point in the future inwhich vampires, demons,
etc., no longer exist in this dimension - due to a plague or magic happening
or ??? (I don't think this has been detailed yet). Because of this lack of
evil that needs fighting, Slayers are no longer being called/chosen and the
Watchers Council turns into a pack of "jibbering idiots." About 300 years in
the future, vampires start reappearing in this dimension. A Slayer is
called, but she has no training and no real concept of what her role is.

And then the story unfolds.

The first installment should be out soon - if I remember correctly. Check
your local comic store.

(BTW, I think Joss saying she is the first Slayer called since Buffy is just
some convenient shorthand so we understand where the story is coming from.
It would be harder to grasp if Joss said she was the first Slayer called
since Slayer X (a Slayer some time after Faith). Or maybe Buffy really will
be resurrected as immortal!! With Joss you never know! ;) )

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded) -- Jack
Shadow, 21:48:25 05/24/01 Thu

It seems to me that one interpretation of "death is your gift" is just that
- by dieing Buffy can create other slayers. She has, after all, done this
once, so there is really no reason it couldn't happen again. Somehow the
magical rules that create slayers require something arbitrary, like the
heart to stop or perhaps even the soul to leave the body. Apparently this
happened to Buffy, with the result that Kendra was activated. I could see a
plot line like this:

a)Buffy comes back from the underworld, maybe via the Valet. It would
certainly seem that Angel is owed a life. Joss said it was cheesy and this
is - laid out in advance but probably too easy.
b)Another slayer in some far off place has been activated, say, China or
Europe. Faith is still a slayer.
c)Buffy is a plain old person now, but Dawn is still the Key, whatever that
means, Willow is a big-time witch, etc.
d)Buffy feels really really out of it; normality is a huge bore and she has
no real life anyway
e)Buffy takes up with Spike for solace
f)Buffy gets vamped by Spike at her request and cursed by Willow
g)Buffy is back as the vampire vampire slayer. At this point, I don't think
there is much likelyhood of her ever being really happy again.
h)Season 7 ends with Buffy really dieing in some act that has the effect of
wiping out all vampires, including her and Spike. Angel has become human by
this point - he has an easy way out via the demon blood. We pretty much know
that this is how Joss intends to end the series to set up the background for
the comic.

The alternative way to run it is she is still a slayer when she comes back,
just like the first time. Different stories follow, but we still end up with
the same end at the close of season seven (big mojo wipes out all vampires).

In any case, I've never understood where all this "single line of slayers"
stuff comes from other than the "one girl in the world" pitch line.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Army of Slayers -- Malandanza, 20:03:53 05/25/01 Fri

"I also disagree with your opinion that Buffy's death will call on another
slayer, although we'll have to wait to see for that as well. We have seen on
the show that the Slayer powers are not a single force that occupies one
girl, then goes onto another when that one dies, evidenced by the fact that
when Buffy was revived, she retained the Slayer powers even when Kendra was
called. After Kendra's death, Faith had the slayer powers. I don't believe
her "going bad" prevents Faith from being the one to call the next slayer,
for two reasons: (1) Faith has begun to redeem herself now. (2) Presumably,
only one girl can pass on the powers when she dies, or from now on there
will be 2 slayers. If it were anything else, Buffy could be killed, revived,
killed, revived, etc just in order to bring forth a whole army of Slayers,
each one of whom would have the power to call a slayer themselves. I don't
think it could possibly work that way, or it would have already been done.
No, I believe each slayer can die only once in order to fit into the rules
of then calling another slayer. If they are revived, they fit outside the
accepted rules. They can, as Buffy was up till now, continue to fight and
protect the world as the Slayer, but their death will not call another."

I agree that only one girl's death will call the next slayer. I do not think
it is reasonable to assume that no slayer has ever been revived before
Buffy. If each slayer's death called another slayer, we should have more
than two, perhaps dozens (or even an "Army of Slayers," if some clever, but
evil, watcher decided to revive his slayer over and over for the good of the
world). The slayer powers, once granted, cannot be revoked -- hence Buffy
still possesed all the slayer abilities after her death. But the ability to
call the next slayer passes to the next slayer. thus, there is only one
"legitimate" slayer, the one whose death calls the next -- the one with the
connection, not to TPTB, but to the First Slayer.

The First Slayer is not about saving the world, she is about death. She
sleeps on a bed of bones (presumably, not vampire bones) and her gift is
death. Far from Faith having "gone bad," I believe Faith was closer to the
First Slayer than Buffy ever was. Until those pesky moral ambiguities
settled in, Faith was all about the slaying. After the joining ritual, I
believe Buffy inadvertantly reconnected herself to the First Slayer, and
severed Faith's ties, reestablishing Buffy as the legitimate slayer. Thus,
Buffy's death, rather than Faith's, will call the next slayer. Supporting
this view is the manner in which Buffy began acting this season -- much more
in touch with the darker side of slaying. There were some definite
Faith-like moments this season (hunting vamps, then snuggling up next to
Riley, torching the Vamp Brothel and massacring the vamps, casually snapping
the neck of a demon).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded) -- rowan,
19:20:07 05/24/01 Thu

"Unity: I think that Buffy's death will serve to bring the Scoobies closer
together. There is potential for chaos (consider Xander's comment about
smart girls being sexy and Willow's flirtatious response) but disunity has
been done. Even in the Xander/Willow area, as soon as Anya and Xander are
married, the sublimated romance between them will finally be at an end. And
there's dawn to consider -- what happens to her? will Child Protective
Services finally track down Hank (and if they do, why would he move to
Sunnydale?) or will she end up a ward of the court? She could be adopted by
a married couple (like Anya and Xander), but I don't really see another way
to keep her on the show."

I agree. I think there will be strong unity (which will now include Spike,
although some members of SG will have fears of him reverting if chip fails).

I too puzzle over Dawn. If ASH is in less eps, I don't see Giles as a
guardian. Plus, you wonder if DCS would give a 15 year old girl as a ward to
a 45 year old single man. Xander and Anya appear to be the best possibility
for guardians, other than Hank. I suspect if Hank is found and Dawn must
reside elsewhere, Spike will go along for the ride. Or perhaps Dawn will
rebel and run. I can visualize Dawn wanting to live in Spike's crypt and
stay one step ahead of DCS, but I imagine the entire SG will want her to
have as normal a life as possible, which would not include Spike's crypt.

I wonder if Joss will spend any time on Dawn's situation at all, or if S6
will start with it all as accomplished fact?

"(By the way, even if Buffy returns, she'll be legally dead and unable to
gain custody of Dawn)."

Assuming that they actually reported her death to the authorities! (guess
they had to in order to get a death certificate to bury her). I wonder what
that scene looked like. "Umm, officer, you see, there was this portal...."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded) -- Anthony*,
19:51:10 05/24/01 Thu

Hey, it's Sunnydale--wouldn't you like to have a copy of its daily
obituaries?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> And what the heck happened to the dragon?! -- rowan, 19:54:11
05/24/01 Thu

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> This is the story I heard... -- OnM, 15:45:57 05/26/01 Sat

He paid a visit to a couple of studios in Hollywood, but found that nobody
wanted to hire him because it was cheaper to do a CGI dragon than to feed
him every day. (Eating one of the studio heads in a fit of pique didn't help
his case either).

Rumor now has it he's off to Japan to see what Godzilla is up to.

(Well, inquiring minds want to know, you know?)

;)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded) -- rowan, 19:10:24
05/24/01 Thu

"1. Disunity. Now that the Slayer is gone, however temporarily, what happens
to the rest of the group? We've seen this play out before -- the start of
B3, with Buffy's self-imposed exile and friction-packed return, and B5, with
college-life and the Initiative creating barriers between the Gang -- but
this may be the strongest test yet on the glue that holds the Scoobs'
together."

Unfortunately, I have no brilliant ideas to offer, other than to speculuate
on disunity. I thought that S4 was about disharmony & the drifting apart of
the SG. I'm speculating that Joss would probably not repeat that in quite
the same way.

Joss has said in interviews that the season will show the SG "without
buffers" and having to realize they are the adults (and perhaps aren't doing
such a great job at it). We also know that ASH is going to be in less eps
since he's moving back to the UK. This also fits in with the "no buffer"
idea. I'm wondering if the SG will stay close together, but will encounter
alot of obstacles in dealing with adulthood that they will have to solve
together. My gut feeling is that they will live according to Buffy's words
-- love each other & take care of each other.

If Buffy doesn't return immediately, a major test will be dealing with Dawn.
Who does she live with? After all, everyone else is independent, but a 15
year old minor must have a guardian.

Also, Anya and Xander are planning a weddding. This is another major
transition to adulthood which the group will encounter. And after marriage
comes...babies!

Looks like it could be a very interesting season.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded) -- Solitude1056,
20:13:33 05/24/01 Thu

There were also comments, about a month or two ago?, in some Joss interview
that AH has asked for some time off next season... so there will be a
stretch of 4 or 5 episodes in which she'll be gone. I don't recall him
saying why or how or even what for in terms of AH herself. I think the
comment was more to describe his willingness as a boss to allow his
employees freedom to explore other avenues instead of chaining them to the
set for all 22 episodes.

But... it still raises some issues about who could be there for Dawn, and I
can't help but wonder why no one has suggested Tara? She's (supposedly) a
year older than the Scoobies, and has no ties to home. Xander & Anya might
be potential material if it weren't for the fact that Anya clearly gets on
Dawn's nerves sometimes, Anya's not used to sisters or sharing space other
than with Xander...

If Buffy is just "gone" one day & that's that - no official word - then Dawn
could feasibly stay with Tara (assuming Hank stays absent - hey, it's more
of that "what does Joss have against Dads?" routine). As far as Child
Protection Services would be concerned, Dawn is going to school and appears
to be fed & washed regularly. They'd have no reason to question it
otherwise, since the last word was that the authorities would be contacted
if Dawn were not "brought into line," so to speak - implying that good Dawn
= no CPS. If Dawn straightens up & flies right, and Buffy's absence isn't
mentioned to any officials, then I'd see no reason that CPS would have to
question Dawn's home condition.

That'd be my suggestion on how it could be handled, since I don't get the
impression that our faithful Scooby family takes too kindly to outsiders
pushing in on their affairs... especially those who tend towards the
boneheaded end of the authoritative spectrum (think Synder).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded) -- Isabel,
21:09:05 05/27/01 Sun

I've been wondering about what's going to happen to Dawn too.

I don't think you can have a grave without a death certificate. Wouldn't her
friends consider it a violation of her memory to just tote away her body and
hide her death? "She saved the world a lot," is that the epitath of someone
you stick in a car trunk and bury in the woods? It's not like they're afraid
she wouldn't be buried in hallowed ground because she's a suicide. Yes, she
saved the world, but the authorities won't understand that.

As for not telling anyone that Buffy's dead and having the Scoobies take
Dawn, difficult to manage. Do they revive the Buffybot to be Dawn's
'official' guardian and have Willow and Tara move in with them? 1) The 'Bot
would have to not be too badly damaged by Glory and repairable by Willow. 2)
They'd have to think of it very soon after Buffy's death. They looked too
torn up with grief to be thinking about much. Plus, none of them would be
able to publicly mourn her if that were the case.

Let's face it, no matter what we, as viewers, know or think we know, to the
Scoobies Buffy is not coming back so there is no reason to conceal her death
so her legal identity is preserved with the authorities. Maybe if Buffy made
out a will naming one of her friends as Dawn's guardian if something
happened to her Social Services might allow it, depending on who it is. I
agree that a 15 year girl would not be allowed to live with a single man in
his 40's, no matter how respectable. And what about a (seemingly) 25 year
old single man who is also an immigrant, unemployed, and homeless with a
strange allergy to sunlight. NOT! Willow and Tara are both in college and
how can they both go to college and take care of Dawn? Xander and Anya,
despite possible personality clashes, are the closest thing the Scoobies
have as guardians of Dawn.

Isabel


Article from the Washington Post -- Solitude1056, 10:28:30 05/24/01 Thu

Nyah-Nyah, UPN: WB Makes Things Tough for 'Buffy' Fans
By Lisa de Moraes

We know that Buffy didn't really die at the close of Tuesday night's season
finale -- because the WB network is still trying real hard to kill her off
before her move to UPN in the fall.

Z WB is about to announce that it won't run "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" on
Tuesday nights this summer after all.

"Buffy" has been a Tuesday TV institution for years.

Instead, WB will bounce "Buffy" around its prime-time schedule like a
ping-pong ball all summer long. The "Buffy" spinoff "Angel," now airing
Tuesdays at 9, will be yanked off the night, too, and sent packing to
Mondays at 9, where it's supposed to go this fall.

The idea here is to break "Buffy" fans of their Tuesday viewing habit before
the hit drama moves to UPN this fall. UPN execs announced to advertisers
last week that the network would keep "Buffy" in its longtime Tuesday slot
so as to keep viewer confusion to a minimum when the show switches networks.

WB, however, wants them to be confused. Earlier this month, after haggling
for months with the show's production house, 20th Century Fox TV, over the
price tag, WB lost "Buffy" to rival UPN. Last week, during WB's unveiling of
its prime-time schedule for the 2001-02 TV season, an exec stood up in front
of hundreds of advertisers and said the network wasn't broken up over the
loss because the show was beginning to skew a tad old -- not enough teen
viewers for WB. To prove the point, the WB exec announced that "Buffy" would
be replaced in the fall with the series "Gilmore Girls," whose star Alexis
Bledel, 18, is a full five years younger than "Buffy" lead Sarah Michelle
Gellar.

(Gellar must have seen this one coming; she had, after all, turned 24 last
month, which puts her more than halfway into WB's 12-34 target demo with her
best years behind her.)

At that same presentation, WB announced that it would run Wednesday movie
night this summer, using titles from parent company AOL Time Warner's
considerable flick library. But WB brass apparently changed their minds
after UPN suits announced a couple of days later that they had bought not
only "Buffy" but also "Roswell" -- another WB drama produced by 20th Century
Fox -- and scheduled them both on Tuesday night next season. This week,
however, WB has decided to make its summer Wednesday movie its summer
Tuesday movie instead.

So, on June 4, "Angel" makes the move to Mondays, replacing the UPN-bound
"Roswell," which WB will not air in reruns this summer for reasons too
obvious to explain.

WB's "Flix From the Frog" movie night will debut June 5 with the broadcast
of the feature film "I Know What You Did Last Summer," which, not
coincidentally, co-starred Gellar -- when she was much younger, of course.

Then, on June 6, "Buffy" gets booted to her first stop on the schedule:
Wednesdays at 9, replacing "Felicity."

A WB spokesman said the change of plans on the summer movie night wasn't
about messing with "Buffy" but "really about inventory and getting 'Gilmore
Girls' over there [on Tuesday] at the right time."

And noted various TV industry executives, if WB really wanted to deep-six
"Buffy," they'd putting it on Sunday night.

That hasn't happened -- yet.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> The WB is only proving how fearful they should be... -- Rob, 10:45:29
05/24/01 Thu

Logically, if the WB is so certain that "Buffy" is for an older demographic
now, and that it was the right choice to leave it behind, why are they
bothering to move it to Wednesday nights at 9? If they were so certain that
their channel was mostly based on teen ratings and they are equally certain
that many teens stopped watching the show, they would not need to lamely
attempt to break up the viewers' Tuesday night Buffy ritual. These teens,
according to them, have already stopped watching and thus do not need any
further discouragement. Hey, it's their logic, not mine! What they are
actually proving is that they are fearful that the people in their key
demographic will bail on them and move over to UPN.
The fact is that Tuesday night at 8 is Buffy night. People who watch the WB
have known that for years. Therefore, in great likelihood, those who do not
know Buffy has moved, will turn on the television, see that teeny-bopper
show, "Gilmore Girls" and turn off in disgust. At least, that's what I'm
hoping! If they were smart, they would have done something like keep
"Roswell," and put it on up against "Buffy." A cult hit like "Buffy," which
many "Buffy" fans watch, that could have cut into some of Buffy's viewers.
Instead, the WB let go of 2 of their big cult hits, and I predict that their
ratings will plummet a great deal because of that. The only one left now is
"Angel," which, when you think about it, is aimed at an even slightly older
demographic than "Buffy." After all, none of the characters are in college.
Hell, the main character is over 200 years old! It is also darker. Why then
place it after the feel-good family show of the century, "7th Heaven"?!? It
just doesn't make sense. The WB's reasoning is absurd at worst, and a
desperate struggle to stay alive at best.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Plus no Roswell reruns -- Elizabeth, 10:56:37 05/24/01 Thu

I already screwed up taping two episodes, and they didn't even have reruns
in mid-season. I hope UPN may pick up Roswell reruns to promote the show for
the fall???

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: WB Execs are not thinking right -- FanMan, 14:54:57 05/24/01
Thu

I am 28 and Buffy is my favorite show.
So the WB is losing teen viewers? The WB was the new kid on the block, and
had a good market strategy. Teens are fickle, not stupid. Teens have just as
much desire for quality as adults. The WB needs quality shows that teens can
relate to if they want that demographic. Buffy is like the X-Files, Star
Trek, and a few others; it will still be watched and rewatched for decades
after the last episode airs because it is multifaceted and you need to see
many episodes to really understand how complex Joss can be. It is still a
show with a fringe viewing demographic; the only reason many people watched
the WB is because of BUFFY. The WB could have switched focus to adult shows
and it would be good to keep BUFFY at the same time because BUFFY is now a
more adult and grey show like reality that adults deal with: kids have a
simple view of reality until they grow up and see that there are many greys
in choices.....well smart people figure out that painfull truth(grin)

BUFFY has many adult viewers and teens who grew up loving it are now close
to collage age and haveing some real spending money so keeping the show
would have kept those viewers loyal at a time they are a better marketing
demographic(17-22) than teens whose income is an allowance or very part time
work.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: WB Execs are not thinking right -- Cynthia, 16:55:35
05/24/01 Thu

If WB Execs are hoping that all of BTVS fans are going to turn on at 8 p.m.
on Tuesday come fall, they idiots. Haven't they heard of the interet,
fanboards, chatrooms. 99.9% of BTVS are going to be watching Buffy, not
turning WB to watch Buffy and in a supposed stupor (I guess they think we've
to "old" to turn the channels) watch Gilmore Girls.

And, I guess, the execs have never heard of vcrs or tivo's either. I've
faithly watched two shows that are on at the same time for years. The days
of just one show, one time period are long gone. I wonder when the TV execs
are going to realize that.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: The WB is only proving how fearful they should be... -- rowan,
19:02:00 05/24/01 Thu

Okay, wait a minute. The Gilmore Girls is not a teeny-bopper show, even if
that article gave the impression it is. It's actually a show that appeals to
an older female demographic, because it's really more focused on a 30
something single woman raising a daughter.

But I think you're right that WB is trying to suck people into another show
by putting it in Buffy's timeslot. The Gilmore Girls would actually be a
better fit after 7th Heaven, and if the WB wasn't so interested in playing
games, they'd realize that.

I don't understand this messing with the reruns. With a non-mainstream show
like BtVS, I can't imagine that the loyal core fanbase is going to be lost
by this type of obvious shell game.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: The WB is only proving how fearful they should be... --
Anthony8, 19:42:04 05/24/01 Thu

I really wonder about the so-called demographics cited by networks in their
promotion and scheduling of shows. I think that the WB seriously misread
BTVS' demographic. I believe it has a much broader age and gender appeal
than they ever realized. Gilmore Girls too. It is obvious from this message
board that, at least here, viewers are interested in quality storytelling
and non-pandering entertainment. I wouldn't be surprised if you sat down a
group of intelligent viewers of any age or gender background (I won't
include ethnicity because there is still a long, long way to go regarding
that) and find that they would like BTVS, Gilmore Girls, The West Wing, and
maybe even a sitcom like Seinfeld. Quality writing crosses demographics, but
I think that is way too complicated for network executives to comprehend and
quantify. After all those people are bean counters not creative types.

A8

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: The WB is only proving how fearful they should be... --
rowan, 19:53:01 05/24/01 Thu

I agree. I think BtVS is totally mis-marketed. It is a show that can really
appeal to an older audience. I have now forced my brother (30), mother (69),
and best friend (34) to watch an ep. I have converted them all to loyal
fans. They marketing had turned them off, until I could convince them to
watch an ep. BtVS comes out of the same tradition (for me at least) as JRR
Tolkien, CS Lewis, etc. Even Harry Potter appeals to both children and
adults.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The WB is only proving how fearful they should be... --
Anthony8, 20:26:38 05/24/01 Thu

Similar demographic here--mother (58) and best friend (32). I've been trying
to get my father interested since he has always been interested in Joseph
Campbell-type studies of mythology, but he's not a big TV watcher these
days. Someday I'll have to sit him down in front of a vcr and give him a
"Best of" showing.

There has been enough attention in the media (Matt Rousch of TV Guide and
Joyce Millman of salon.com, to name two) drawing attention to the quality
viewing that BTVS is that you would think the network executives would have
eventually caught a clue as to how to promote the show to a broad audience.
Oh well.

By the way, Tim Goodman is a writer for the San Francisco Chronicle who
mentions BTVS at least once a week in his various reviews and editorials.
Most recently, he wrote an article for the Sunday Datebook section that
lamented the lack of truly complex characters in dramatic TV today and cited
Buffy as perhaps the only one left worth watching.

A8

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The WB is only proving how fearful they should be... --
Rufus, 21:10:16 05/24/01 Thu

If you tell a good story....it crosses generational lines...something they
should be paying attention to.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The WB is only proving how fearful they should be... --
Anthony8, 21:24:51 05/24/01 Thu

By the way, that Tim Goodman article on the lack of complex tv characters
can be found at this
address--http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/05/06/PK148408.DTL

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks for the link........... -- Rufus, 21:33:49 05/24/01
Thu


Thoughts on Dawn being the "softer side of Buffy" -- Rob, 10:34:20 05/24/01
Thu

I was thinking about a few of the postings I read here, that perhaps when
the Monks created Dawn, they isolated the more "girly" side of Buffy, while
Buffy herself kept the Slayer side. That actually makes a great deal of
sense, considering that when Dawn arrived is around the time that Buffy
started to distance herself from Riley and take him for granted. This
eventually lead to their breakup. Also, all year Buffy has repeatedly
wondered whether she has the ability to feel love anymore, which mirrored
Dawn's wondering whether she was real or not. Perhaps Buffy's feelings of
distance towards humanity at times and her taking Riley for granted are thus
a result of Dawn's creation, as the non-slayer side of Buffy was put into
another vessel. This could also explain why, in "Weight of the World,"
Willow talked to 2 Buffys at the end. Although we know that Dawn can
metaphorically be called "the softer side of Buffy," perhaps she is
literally as well. This year, Buffy explored the darker side of being the
slayer. Perhaps, in her hero's journey, it was necessary for the "girly"
part to be separated from her for a while, to more objectively understand
her role as the Slayer, and the difference between herself and a regular
killer. She was, however, required to protect the other side of herself, not
let it get away (or be taken), as she focused more deeply on her training.
At the end of "Becoming," Buffy sacrificed the human side of herself, her
passionate love for Angel, and kept the Slayer side, in order to save the
world. This lead to a period of great darkness for her, where she felt
compelled to run away and change her identity. Thus forgoing her humanity
and love is not the right choice, at least in a metaphysical sense.
At the end of "The Gift," Buffy sacrificed her "slayer" side to save the
more human side of herself, and the world. This leads to her death, and thus
this is not the most beneficial to her either. She has learned from this,
however.
Perhaps this was the lesson she had to learn: that both sides of herself are
equally important; that in some cases her being a human girl who cannot kill
her own sister, even to save the world, is more important than being the
Slayer, and should come first.
While ostensibly this season was about how dark the job of the Slayer is, it
also reveals, in a brilliant twist, that sometimes the job of being human is
more important.
At the moment, Buffy's hard and soft sides are separated, in fact the hard
side is for all intents and purposes dead and gone.
Could Buffy's resurrection next year have something to do with joining both
sides together again, with the "Slayer" and the "Human" both now the wiser?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Thoughts on Dawn being the "softer side of Buffy" -- rowan, 18:58:05
05/24/01 Thu

This is a very interesting topic that I think will be explored next year.
IMHO, Buffy did make an identification of Dawn's as part of herself, and it
seemed clear it was probably the "girly" part as opposed to the "Slayer"
part.

But I wonder if Buffy is really right about that? You know, Spike oftens
hits upon very signficant truths. Remember when he called Dawn "bitty Buffy"
when they went after that egg for the resurrection spell? I'm not saying
that Dawn has Slayer genes (although I'm wondering about Joss's comments
that he thinks Dawn the Vampire Slayer would be a show he would watch), but
she may have a little more of the assertive Buffy side than Buffy thinks.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Thoughts on Dawn being the "softer side of Buffy" -- Anthony8,
19:20:10 05/24/01 Thu

It was also interesting to me that Buffy tells the gang that the monks made
Dawn from her (not from Joyce). From the beginning of the whole Key arc
(that is, from the time the monk reveals the truth to Buffy), my whole
impression was that Buffy was acting as Dawn's real mother. Joyce seemed
more of a foster-type mother. As deep as sibling love can be, Buffy's
actions from "There's No Place Like Home" through the end of "The Gift" were
more like that that of a mother protecting her child than sister for sister.
Even her "live for me" words sound like what every parent says to their
child ("I want you to have the things I couldn't have...").

A8

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Thoughts on Dawn being the "softer side of Buffy" -- rowan,
19:28:00 05/24/01 Thu

Yes, I absolutely agree. At the time, it wasn't perhaps immediately obvious.
Before Buffy encountered the monk, she was very much the older sister
frustrated with the younger sibling. Then, she had a shock when she
discovered Dawn's origins, and had an immediate withdrawal from Dawn. But
after Dawn ran away & Glory found her at the hospital, Buffy escalated into
ultra-protective mode.

It finally all made sense when she explained to the SG how she felt in The
Gift. I found myself saying, "oh, of course, this is why she's been acting
the way she has."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Thoughts on Dawn being the "softer side of Buffy" --
Anthony8, 19:48:25 05/24/01 Thu

It's funny because all during her little speech to Giles and the SG at the
magic shop, I really wanted her to say something to the effect of "for all
intents and purposes, Dawn IS my child, guys." But I guess there would be no
art in that. It's that darned ambiguity that keeps us coming back week after
week.

A8

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> So true! -- rowan, 19:50:01 05/24/01 Thu

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Thoughts on Dawn; Spoilers for 'The Gift' and the Season. --
Age, 20:39:55 05/24/01 Thu

Spoilers for 'Buffy Versus Dracula', elements of the season, 'The Gift' and
'Angel' finale.

I thought this short analysis would add to the discussion about Dawn.

In ep one Buffy is confronted by Dracula as a manifestation of her
subconscious attachment to the new power she'd gained by accepting her
slaying. She says it herself: she had become a hunter. This manifestation
was symbolically transformed into a three way conflict between the beast,
Glory,(the temptation to give into the animal predatory power; Glory is the
logical conclusion of Buffy's descent into predatory power); the human, Ben,
housing Glory( representing Buffy's desire to get on with her regular life
as a student, ie become one of the herd); and Dawn, the innocent girl, the
Key to Buffy herself, that part of her which should never be given up for
either one of the two above.

In the final episode, Buffy must save Dawn from a huge tower. As she's
climbing up to Dawn she's fighting Glory, fighting therefore her own
temptation to give into the animal power of the predator, seeking to rise
above it. She and Glory fall from the tower to the ground and there she
beats Glory into submission(Glory and Ben have fused somewhat, making Glory
vulnerable, but also symbolizing that Buffy's fighting the other conflicts
in her life in her subconscious.) Buffy subdues Glory and then goes to the
top to free Dawn. But she has already been cut and the portal has opened.
Not only are demons coming through, but the earth is being changed into a
demon realm. Dawn, Buffy's original nature, her humanity, her 'child of
God', offers to sacrifice herself, but Buffy won't allow her. Because they
have the same blood, Buffy jumps down from the top of the tower into the
portal and closes it. She has symbolically risen from animal to human, from
aggression to love, from subconscious to consciousness(as she then realizes
what her gift is) and then deliberately dives off what would have been the
end result of her transformation into a hell god if she'd given into
temptation(ie being at the top of the food chain above all the others) and
instead gives her life out of love to save the human world, saving herself
as human in the form of Dawn. And Dawn is appropriately named because for
Buffy this is the dawn of something new in her life: not only has she
accepted being the slayer, she now has vanquished her attachment to the
power of slaying. She is just love, a bodhisattva. Well, that's stretching
things. She's also a human being having trouble facing the grey area of life
and afraid of losing those dear to her. But I'm sure she'll figure out how
to deal with those problems in seasons six and seven....

As for Buffy being the mother, this fits very well with the theme of the
natural order of life and death. The previous generation has to die to make
way for the next. Vampires as perpetual teenagers are an unnatural rebellion
against this. They are also the animal predator that Buffy has been fighting
against externally and internally. Buffy dies to show the sacrifice we all
make as human beings. Her dive reproduces the fall into death we all face
and which was the season arc story: Dawn fell from childhood to adolescence
when she discovered she was the Key; Riley fell from adolescence into
adulthood when he discovered that all endings are not happy; and Joyce fell
into death.

The conflict between Glory and the knights is symbolic of the duality we
experience in ourselves: Glory as animal wants to use the Key, stripping the
human of her identity; the knights as patriarchal agents want to destroy the
key itself. This is the dichotomy between total acceptance of sexuality(Dawn
bleeds when she finds out that she's the key and Spike tells her she's
Little Red Riding Hood: both relate possibly to menstruation) and total
denial of our sexuality. We as human beings must balance our identity as
human with our role as links in the sexual reproductive chain. In other
words, Whedon is interested in how we continue as human beings and as a
human race, because without either, both are lost. If we give into our
animal nature and see ourselves simply as animals(Glory) we lose what we
are. If on the other hand we deny our role and sever the link, as the
Knights wish, humanity dies with us.

The dichotomy between Glory and the Knights is also between the predator and
the herd, the latter willing to allow one of its own to be culled for the
'good' of the rest(wolf, ram and hart.) Buffy will neither be a predator nor
a herd animal; she remains Dawn, the human. This part of her is what she
leaves to live on: the human as person and as member of the human race.

Buffy's death marks the end of the hero myth and also the end of childhood
for the gang. The slayer/mother who has protected them is gone and now the
gangs on both shows have to fend for themselves as adults in a world of
grey. For a little while anyway...

Age

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> I like that....just killed another tree........ -- Rufus,
21:07:21 05/24/01 Thu

In the Shooting script Buffy makes reference to being or feeling like she is
Dawns mother. And the words she used to Willow....I don't have a life I have
Dawns......Now Dawn lives on for her.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> I keep wondering if that phrase is really significant...
-- OnM, 06:05:15 05/25/01 Fri

"I don't have a life - I have *Dawn's life*."

I keep having this nagging sense that Dawn is going to be the key to Buffy's
rebirth.

Then there is this quote by Joss from TV Guide Online (05/24/01):

TVGO: "If and when the day comes that Sarah leaves the show, would you
retitle it 'Dawn the Vampire Slayer'?"

Whedon: "What I would do with it is hard to say, but that's certainly a show
I'd watch. Michelle [Trachtenberg] is a powerhouse. I have the best ensemble
that I could ever hope to work with. It could happen, but if it did, it
wouldn't be for years because Sarah's coming back."

The first line of Joss' response seems somewhat deliberately evasive, in
that he may have already decided to make Dawn a Slayer, maybe not the next,
but if not, eventually. Is the key to Buffy's rebirth her desire to keep
Dawn 'pure' (i.e purely 'human', not Slayer/human as she was) and her return
is to forstall that happening?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I keep wondering if that phrase is really
significant... -- Rufus, 06:22:24 05/25/01 Fri

Sometimes people say things in frustration and in this case I think Buffy
may have meant one thing but it will come out to be more profound than she
could have imagined.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Wow, very perceptive! -- Solitude1056, 21:55:54 05/24/01 Thu

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> Thank you must be the influence of my cats....and
chocolate....:):) -- Rufus, 21:57:33 05/24/01 Thu

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Sorry answered wrong line......... -- Rufus, 05:57:08
05/25/01 Fri

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> You're really Joss, aren't you? Well, if not, he would be
proud! -- OnM, 05:51:11 05/25/01 Fri

As the regulars here know, I'm rarely at a loss to comment on just about
anything, but that was incredible.

Mere genuflection is inadequate, I most humbly prostate my unworthy self
before you, and fervently pray that no evil hellgod ever sucks your brain!
:)

(Well, I sincerely thought about it, anyway, arthritis ya know ;) ;)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Spoilers for 'Spiral' and 'Over the Rainbow' and 'Fear
Itself' and Fourth Season Big Bad. -- Age, 08:09:13 05/25/01 Fri

Spoilers also for the 'Angel' ep that followed 'Fear Itself.'

No, but everything in these shows is metaphorical, and dictates the drama.
For example, when Buffy met up again with the Knights, it wasn't simply to
wrap up a loose end. Whedon used the Knights as symbols of what Buffy
herself had momentarily come to contemplate: destroying the Key. She met up
with the Knights on the road because their paths of thought had crossed.
Whedon had their meeting set on a lonely desert road to symbolize the barren
end-of-the-line(link dead) condition that would mean for the human race, ie
kill the link between the generations and the human race dies. It becomes as
extinct as the gas station which symbolizes both the sexual act(pumping gas
is a nozzle fitting into a hole) and the means of keeping things
going(keeping the human race going) by giving cars energy. Obviously its
deadness symbolized the end of the human race. Of course, the images also
show Buffy's mental condition.
If you noticed, the title of this episode, 'Spiral' is an allusion to 'The
Wizard of Oz' by suggesting the tornado of the film. Quite a bit of the plot
in this ep follows what happens to Dorothy before she's knocked out, except
of course for Buffy there's no longer any place called home, nor is there a
kindly salesman to suggest she go back home. The film portrays the journey
from adolescence to adulthood in which a young woman has to discover that
she has in herself what it takes to continue the human race(the ruby
slippers symbolize menstruation.) The woman/witch of the west(death) wants
to take way Toto, an obvious symbol of Dorothy's animal nature, ie her
sexuality. Only after discovering that she has the brains, the heart, and
the courage to be an adult does Dorothy succeed in deconstructing adults
from their God position by uncovering the little man behind the big image,
and completes the journey from the land of the little people(symbolizing
children, ie what Dorothy would stay as if she didn't make the journey and
symbolizing also her potential to create the next generation.) Whedon uses
the meaning of the film to help create the symbolism of his episode. Note
that 'Angel' uses the film as an allusion too('Over the Rainbow'), and
reinforces my belief that on a weekly basis from the start of the 'Angel'
series the two shows have been linked together in a meaningful way to
reinforce one another.

Foremost, both 'Buffy' and 'Angel' are metaphorical treatments of themes
about humanity. The big bads simply represent what the title characters have
going on internally and what they must face to remain human.

For example Adam last year represented the Scooby gang's repressed fear that
their personal Initiative meant the end of their friendship, hence the
nuclear fission, the splitting as a form of fuel source. Or, more
accurately, Adam represented the Scooby gang's fear that to stay together
they had to be like one another, like parts sewn together.The gang had to
descend into the Initiative complex, down into their subconscious, and
excise this fear and belief. In doing so they banded together, yet remained
separate, using their individual strengths together in a symbolic
representation of their having recognized that they could be friends and
have their separate lives and strengths also.
The symbolism of this fear began in the halloween episode in which the gang
started to come apart, 'Fear Itself,' and to reinforce my idea that 'Buffy'
and 'Angel' are linked on a weekly basis, the 'Angel' ep that followed it
was about a guy who could take himself apart and used his obsession to try
to keep himself together.

Thank you,

Age.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I'm glad you said that about the big bads -- Rufus,
14:24:43 05/25/01 Fri

I shake my head when someone complains that the big bad wasn't big enough
ect. I always see the Big Bad as the thing the SG and ATS have to battle in
their own lives. That's why I see Wolfram and Hart as the Big Bad that will
never go away, they are a representation of the worst of us. Both series
this year had some Oz in them. In Angel he was about to say "There's no
place like...." getting cut off by the sight of Willow. His home isn't
perfect but it's sure better than Pylea. Angel, Wes, Gunn, and Cordy got to
face what they feared or disliked about themselves. Angel faced his inner
demon, Wesley his insecurity, Gunn his need to save everyone. Cordy got a
new appreciation of her visions. Last year she would have Com shucked the
heck out of Groo to get rid of her burden and headache. Now she sees that
the visions were indeed a gift that has made her into a better person.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I'm glad you said that :Spoilers for 'Dead Man's
Party.' -- Age, 00:03:08 05/26/01 Sat

Yes the big bads have a purpose that has nothing to do with being villains.
They are metaphorical representations of problems facing the characters.
That the name Wolfram and Hart is made up of animals points to Joss Whedon's
main concern: how do we remain human? Do we become predators like the wolf
or do we become herd animals willing to sacrifice the weaker members for the
'good' of the herd like the ram or the hart? Wolves, rams and harts don't
have the choice, but to a certain extent we do. This is why Whedon has
concentrated so much on the role of parenting(especially the role of the
father given that we've just emerged from a patriarchal society.) What we
get taught as children will obviously be a large part of the map we use to
direct our lives.

I did not realize that 'Buffy' was metaphorical until third season when the
zombies crashed Buffy's party. I sat up and realized that as in all fairy
tale structures, the real emotions were being resolved using the
supernatural. The zombies represented the repressed anger of the Scooby gang
and of Buffy's mum, erupting out of the subconscious. The zombies are
stopped when the symbol of repression, the mask, is destroyed.
After that I was hooked.

Age.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> That was the epiphany, huh? Just wondering, did
you then go back... -- OnM, 14:21:43 05/26/01 Sat

...and start checking out the previous eps to see if the same was true for
them? Just curious.

I don't think that I ever had an epiphany per se when I suddenly realized
that Buffy was metaphorical, at least not as extensively as I see it today.
It was more like a slow gradual process, and I found that the single thing
that helped the most was to regularly tape the eps, which I was very erratic
in doing for most of the first three seasons.

Part of it is that the way my head works memory-wise is that I seem to have
only limited recall the first time through, perhaps because I tend to
experience the show emotionally first and then later go on to think about it
on a more forebrain level. Taping thus becomes indispensible. For the last
two seasons, I have never missed taping a show, and always watch the tape at
least once afterward, sometimes 3 or 4 times for the really classic eps
(hey, you know 'em when you see 'em!).

I really don't know of any other show on currently that I would want to see
more than once or twice, even excellently written shows such as Law & Order
or ER. They tell great stories, 'tis true, but there is very little in the
way of use of metaphor that allows them to work under repeated
viewings/hearings, just as with the best movies or music.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: That was the Epiphany. Spoilers for All
Seasons, up to 'The Gift. -- Age, 18:17:10 05/26/01 Sat

Again, please note that in passing I mention all the seasons. All the big
bads. Specific episodes like the fourth season premiere and finale. Spoilers
for 'The Gift' and 'Gingerbread.' Spoilers for third season finale also.

Unfortunately I do not have the first two seasons on tape, but when
syndication begins I shall be eager to do some analysis of them. My first
instinct was to analyze the basic metaphors of the series itself: Sunnydale
has the hellmouth because the weather(sunny in the day, ie putting on a mask
of everything being sunny, happy and bright) is a metaphor for the
repression of emotions and/or problems: had the weather been grey, most of
the problems would not have occurred because that metaphor would have
implied a healthier way of approaching life: not so black and white. I saw
the supernatural first as a function of repression in which emotions
repressed take on a life of their own, ie denied, repressed, unmanaged, they
are still there and don't get dealt with until they've taken on enough power
to burst forth out of the subconscious like supernatural creatures bursting
out of the night. Repression is denial of who we are, a function of the
patriarchal society we've just emerged from. Emotions are devalued as
feminine and thus repressed. People are not encouraged to manage their
emotions(as the Watcher symbolizes: management) but simply to repress them
and deny them, especially those deemed bad like sexual feelings.

I saw the vampire and the slayer as symbolic representations of the conflict
between males and females in a patriarchal society(and their
deconstruction): the vampire represents the sexual predator(males are taught
that power is all that matters); while the Slayer(holding a phallic symbol
in her hand in the form of a stake) is the female reaction to living in a
world where women do not have any power: she is the emasculator who gains
whatever small power she can for herself and for her children by holding sex
over the head of the male. The relationship is power driven and
fundamentally unhealthy. Whedon's concern is that we continue as human
beings and that includes understanding that both sexes have value, and that
the relationship should be based on love and respect. It should be between
two human persons and not between a sexual predator/boy and a
virgin/whore/mother. The act of love in such an unhealthy relationship is
centred on satisfying only the male because the woman is taught she's
supposed to not want sex. The sexual act then becomes a form of staking in
which the male satisfies himself at the expense of the woman. It is a form
of violence against the selfhood of the woman because it proves his conquest
over her.(The reference in 'Restless' to conquistador and comfortador cover
both roles: sexual predator and boy.)
Buffy as slayer deconstructs this by staking the sexual predator with a
phallic symbol. The vampires as myth-ological creatures represent the
patriarchal myth. Buffy deconstructs this myth using herself as the
argument: she is the deconstruction of the blond bimbo stereotype as well as
the refutation of females as the weaker sex. Foremost Buffy the vampire
slayer is a deconstructor of myth and this accounts for why the
library(symbol of knowledge) was located over the hellmouth and inside the
school(symbol of patriarchal structure.) It is knowledge after all that
deconstructs myth. This is one of the reasons why the vampires burn up in
the light of day: it is a metaphor for bringing myths into the open and
exploding them. This is also what is behind the stake through the heart
dusting: once your argument gets to the heart of the matter, the myth is no
more.(This is just one interpretation of course.)
(Note the deconstruction of emasculator and sexual predator occurs at the
same time because when the vampire is dusted, the emasculator/slayer role is
no longer needed.)

Buffy uses a wooden stake. This symbolizes, I believe, Whedon's belief in a
natural order to life. The vampires are an unnatural rebellion against life,
unable to continue growing to adulthood; they become monstrous Peter Pans of
adolescence unable to do what humans can. They delight in hurting human
beings because they want to convince themselves that they are superior to
them when in fact they are not. They are parasites. That isn't to say that
the vampires all represent the same thing: Whedon uses specific vampires to
express specific emotions or problems: for example the vampire Sunday in ep
one of season four represents Buffy's fears about the new environment(Sunday
looks like Buffy; and her name implies that if Buffy doesn't get her act
together she's going to end up without a working future, ie in a perpetual
Sunday, the day traditionally without work.)

The patriarchal interpretation of the series is born out by the big bads:
males as master, sexual predator(Angelus) or patriarchs(Mayor and Adam.) In
the third season finale Buffy and her generation have to fight the dic-tator
who would keep them as children, fight the idea they have been given that
citizens remain children while those in power look after them and tell them
what to do. Inherently the patriarchal system is flawed because it creates a
hierarchy in which men attack one another to show that they are manly men
and not feminine in the least, with those men seen as feminine or, its
equivalent, weaker preyed upon. And women are vilified and powerless because
they remind men that the world isn't made just for them, and that the sexual
act does lead eventually to the death of the individual: we all like to
think that we are immortal. Everything that is bad about the world gets
blamed on women as daughters of Eve when in fact men and women as human
beings are natural partners and friends. The only roles that women are
allowed to play in such a society are whores and virgin/mothers, servants to
men. The men are simply boys or sexual predators, who must be kept in line
by an external authority. It is thus self perpetuating: you teach someone
that human society is based solely on power, you then have to keep that
person in line with force, the force of the ideas of duty, morality or with
physical force. What you have to do to children to create such a monstrous
society is to break their natural faith in themselves and others. You have
to destroy the human as natural person and replace him or her as citizen.
Once you do that you harness aggression, exert external discipline and turn
all the men into soldiers. You then fight the next king or ruler who does
the same, and you finish up with endless wars etc.

I know this description is too simplistic, but I think it offers part of
what Whedon is criticizing. His basic theme is how do we grow up to be
adults and remain human? Are we killed off by predator/vampire/myth, or
worse internalize that myth(the blood of a vampire) and prey on others? Or
do we struggle against these influences?

But, my patriarchal approach is too narrow. I don't think it extends to what
Whedon has implied this season, and perhaps I've just been projecting my own
concerns. Wolfram and Hart as the big bad on 'Angel' tends to imply that
Whedon sees our struggle to be one against conceptualizing ourselves solely
as animals(predators or herd animals). We are natural and live in a natural
world, but we have choices greater than do other living things. Certainly
the theme this year has been mortality, and I believe that Whedon through
Buffy's death has put forward the idea that as we die anyway, let's live as
human beings and not as predators(those who run away from life and must live
off others) or herd animals(those who run away from death and would
sacrifice the weaker of the herd for their own safety.) Buffy accepts all of
herself, embraces all of herself as a human being, and that includes death
as well as life. Yes Buffy could have been at the top of the food chain; we
as human beings are at the top of the food chain, but is that all we are?
Are we just the top bum and poo smellers? Or does our human consciousness
mean that we can be and do more?

The answer to that question is the series itself. It shows us on a weekly
basis that we are and can do more. Every week it brings into our homes the
message that human and humane and intelligent endeavours can be done and are
being done. It is not just a series which has themes, but is itself the very
message that Whedon is putting across.

So in answer to your question. No, I haven't analyzed earlier episodes
except 'Anne'; but I have analyzed, in general, Angel's turning into Angelus
in patriarchal terms: ie the patriarchal male who has developed feelings for
the female, but gets what he wants: the night of sex, ie conquest, who then
turns on the young woman with utter hatred because he believes that she has
made him feel this way to get power over him(ie as a boy he cannot take
responsibility because in a patriarchal system one does not take personal
responsibility, instead one receives consequences meted out by an authority,
and blames the woman as the devalued half of a binary opposition between men
and women), and because to have these feelings means he's more feminine and
thus less a man, ie she has attempted to emasculate him.

Specific episodes off hand: from a symbolic point of view 'Faith, Hope and
Trick' is a marvel. But I like 'Gingerbread' because of that wonderful
parody of the all-American male hero rescue in which the rescue weapon is
soft(water) instead of a fist; the males run away and then appear only after
the damsel in distress has saved herself. Not only this but the slippery
slide from parental(patriarchal) concern to totalitarianism is charted with
Amy saving herself by becoming subhuman, and all this with the central
supernatural metaphor, the false dead children demon, representing Joyce's
anger that she's lost her little child Buffy and subconsciously wants the
slayer to go away to get her back. Add to this the highlighting, through the
Hansel and Gretel reference, of the fairy tale structure, and the reference
to herd animals through the acronym MOO, and you have a mighty fine episode.

Two last quick comments:

Joss Whedon isn't using the supernatural as metaphor simply because it's an
imaginative and exciting literary convention, he's using it as a metaphor
for the deconstruction of childhood myth. He has taken that which children
take as literal and given it back its metaphorical meaning as an expression
of human adulthood itself. The very basis of his series, the supernatural
metaphor, is an expression of his central theme: becoming a human adult.

In regards to your topic about viewing the episodes several times, sometimes
I do this, but reading the reviews and postings on this and other boards has
helped me immensely. Had it not been for other people taking the trouble to
put their thoughts to word, my understanding of both 'Buffy' and 'Angel'
would be a lot poorer.

Age.-

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I missed something about
deconstruction. Spoilers: The Gift and Angel finale. -- Age, 11:59:18
05/27/01 Sun

When I was listing how Buffy is deconstruction of patriarchal myth I missed
out the most important point, and one which shows how the season finales of
'Buffy' and 'Angel' are linked to reinforce one another. Buffy as a female
according to patriarchal thinking is evil. Therefore she could never be the
messiah, the Christ. Nor for that matter could Cordelia in 'Angel' as she is
female also.

The season finales of both series present women as messiahs, Christs,
Cordelia as a political messiah, and Buffy as the spiritual messiah.
Cordelia frees the human slaves of another world, making it more
human(humane); while Buffy saves 'our' world and humanity continues. Both
sacrifice that which is dear to them: as has been pointed out by others,
Buffy sacrifices that which earlier in the year she was afraid to let go:
her life; while Cordelia sacrifices her princess dream and love. It is made
explicit through prophecy that Cordelia is a messiah, but Buffy's role as
Christ is built symbolically: firstly, Dawn, the representation of Buffy's
humanity is anointed with a cross on her forehead by a minion; secondly,
Buffy dives in the form of a cross.

Also, to reinforce the link between the two finales, they end the same way:
Buffy goes through a portal and we end with a shot of her gravestone,
silently announcing her death; the Fang gang come back through a portal and
we end with Willow silently announcing Buffy's death.

What I'm getting at here is that the season finales were still
deconstructions of patriarchal myth. By having females as messiahs, the
whole notion of male dominance is turned on its head...or more accurately
has its head chopped off. Cordelia chops the head off of Silas, the
patriarch; while Buffy defeats despair shown by a male, Giles,(not my idea
either) of the worldly view behind patriarchy by closing the portal.(In
doing so Buffy also outgrows her father figure, Giles, doing away with the
need for any patriarchal structure.)

One last thing: I suggested in a reply in another thread that Spike goes up
to save Dawn and fails because he represents love, but not humanity. This
may be so, but it doesn't go far enough. I think Whedon was alluding to
Spike's having killed the other slayers, alluding to the time when he 'got'
to the other slayers. Dawn represents Buffy's humanity, and while the
intention of the character itself is to help Dawn, the symbolism is of a
vampire going up to 'get' Dawn, Buffy's humanity. What Whedon is doing here
is showing that the symbol of the death wish, the desire to escape from life
as represented by the vampire, cannot touch, cannot get to Buffy.

It seems to me that besides being brave, as Buffy suggests, living in this
world and successfully raising the next generation requires love. I know,
I'm stating the obvious. But time and again in these series we see what
happens when the previous generation does not feel love, but rather preys
upon the next generation, attempting to use them, rather than help them
achieve their potential. I think the basic horror of this series is that it
presents what happens when the previous generation wants to eat its young,
instead of raising them, as the allusion to Hansel and Gretel in
'Gingerbread' implies, or as Glory's wanting to use Dawn suggests.

Age.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: That was the epiphany, huh? Just
wondering, did you then go back... -- Anthony8, 19:43:20 05/26/01 Sat

I happened upon the series when it first came on the air expecting it to be
a hoot based on the cheekiness of the title. I started to catch the
mythological aspects right away, but not as deeply as I do now. Unlike other
series, the writing, acting, and character development were so well done
from the start, it had me hooked. I started taping it from the beginning
because I couldn't watch it when it actually aired. Regrettably, I didn't
keep any episodes until Season 4. I wish they would realize the true
marketability of releasing the whole lot on DVD and VHS for those of us who
don't subscribe to cable (Buffy reruns will be on FX next year, not in
widespread syndication) and haven't retained a long-term video library.

A8

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Wizard of Oz and the episode "Nightmares" -- Q,
17:09:50 05/30/01 Wed

Whedon uses the meaning of the film
to help create the symbolism of his episode. Note that 'Angel' uses the film
as an allusion too('Over the Rainbow'),

Your "Wizard of Oz" comprisons were interesting to me. Every season after
the season finale I start at "Welcome to the Hellmouth" and re-watch every
episode. I watched "Nightmares" last week, and was blown away by it for the
first time ever. More on that later.

When "Fear, Itself" first aired, many people, myself included, thought it
was a rather weak episode--a cheap knockoff of "Nightmares". As the season
wore on though, it became apparent that it was a giant foreshadow for the
season to come, and thus earned a lot more respect.

Nightmares did this for me on a much grander scale. I watched it last
weekend and was amazed at the foreshadowing for season 5 I saw! Were they
thinking that far in advance, rewatching season 1 for ideas for season 5, or
is it a big coincidence? I don't know but consider:

A huge theme of the episode was Buffy's father's real wish to become
absentee. A theme of season 5 was Buffy's father's absenteeism. In
"Nightmares", we see Buffy's headstone and grave, an *eery* foreshadow of
"The Gift", and to hear Giles speach at her grave sends chills down the
spine now more than ever.

If I disected the episode more, I could find more paralels to this season
I'm sure, but the only other thing I have time to mention is the line Billy
says when waking from his coma "I had the strangest dream, and you were
there...and you...", a direct quote from "The Wizard of Oz", another thing
we saw referenced quite a bit at the end of the season. Very interesting I
thought

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Thoughts on Dawn; Spoilers for 'The Gift' and the Season.
-- fresne, 12:20:22 05/25/01 Fri

Okay, I've just got to say. This is utterly brilliant.

Bravo.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Thoughts on Dawn being the "softer side of Buffy" -- Jim, 20:34:01
05/24/01 Thu

[Although we know that Dawn can metaphorically be called "the softer side of
Buffy," perhaps she is literally as well. ]

Funny, I don't see Dawn that way at all. While it may be true that is how
Buffy saw Dawn, just like Dawn idolized Buffy and rarely saw Buffy's weak
side, Dawn isn't "the softer side of Buffy" but an entirely different
individual than Buffy.

Sure there are similarities. Buffy had a great influence over Dawn, and they
were raised by the same parents, but I see a darkness within Dawn that I
never saw with Buffy. Wouldn't call it evil, just dark.

Dawn isn't Buffy. Not a younger Buffy. Not a more innocent Buffy. She is
Dawn. Buffy never kept a diary, or even thought about "things" much like
Dawn does. Dawn is much more curious than Buffy ever was. If Dawn does ever
get slayer like powers I think she would embrace them much more willingly
than Buffy did. I can imagine her saying "cool".

Of the two, I would call Buffy more "soft". Dawn has faced much more at her
age than Buffy did (at age 15 Buffy still had her mom, didn't have to deal
with the death of her sibling, was just becoming the slayer. Dawn saw much
more death in her few days with Glory than Buffy ever did).

Perhaps Buffy did transfer all her hopes and wishes into her image of her
sister. That is tragically touching. Both Buffy and Dawn had an image of the
other that didn't quite match up with reality.

One of the most touching scenes this season was the confrontation between
Dawn and Glory.

GLORY (cont'd)
How do they do it?

DAWN
(suspicious)
Do what?

GLORY
(duh)
People. How do they function? Here.
Like this, in the world, with all this
bile running through them. Every day, it's ...

She runs her hand up and down, "rollercoaster" style.

GLORY (cont'd)
Whooo... you have no control they're
not even animals they're just these
meatbaggy slaves to hormones and
pheromones and their, and their... feelings.
(beat)
Hate 'em.
(beat)
I mean really, is this what the poets
go on about? This? Call me crazy.
But as hard core drugs go, human
emotion's just useless. People are
puppets, everyone getting jerked
around by what they're feeling - am
I wrong? Really, I want to know.

Glory waits for an answer. Dawn, holding her throat, doesn't say a thing.

GLORY (cont'd)
Gonna bleed you either way.

DAWN
It depends on the person.

GLORY
So, you're saying some people like this?

DAWN
Some.

GLORY
Funny, 'cause I look around at this
world you're so eager to be a part of,
and all I see's six billion lunatics
looking for the fastest ride out.
Who's not crazy? Look around -
everyone's drinkin', smokin', shootin'
up, shootin' each other or just plain
screwing their brains out because they
don't want 'em anymore. I'm crazy?
Honey, I am the original one-eyed
chicklet in the kingdom of the blind
'cause at least I admit the world makes
me nuts. Name one person who can
take it here. That's all I'm asking -
Name one.

A small beat.

DAWN
Buffy.

This was so touching because it showed how much Dawn loves Buffy, and how
much she looked up to her. Even after "Forever" she still had this larger
than life image of her Big Sister.

It was also of course bitterly ironic. If Dawn only knew where Buffy was at
that moment.

So, perhaps Buffy had this similarly unrealitic image of her little sister.
As being everything that Buffy had wished for herself. As being Buffy's
softer, more innocent half.

Dawn is a great person. But she is anything but innocent.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Very minor quibble, but for what it's worth - Buffy *did* keep a
diary. -- OnM, 06:35:03 05/25/01 Fri

Remember in *Ted*, what originally set her off to fight him was that she
found him reading her diary, which he was going to use to blackmail her
with?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> She had a diary in season one....... -- Rufus, 07:00:17 05/25/01
Fri

In the ep Angel in season one Buffy had what she thought was a human Angel
stay the night...when she got home later in the day she thought he had read
her diary and tried to cover for what she had said about him....he told her
Joyce moved it when she cleaned the room...he was in the closet.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: She had a diary in season one....... -- Sue, 18:17:58
05/25/01 Fri

That is interesting, though Dawn had volumes.

Dawn is much more introspective than Buffy ever was. Buffy only thought
about "things" when she had to.

Dawn isn't Buffy, as much as Buffy wants to think she is. She is her own
unique individual, and of the two, I would say Buffy is the softer one.

And whereas Buffy attracted evil no matter how hard she tried to run from
it, Dawn seeks it out. Not to emulate it mind you, but out of a sense of
curiousity and adventure.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Thoughts on Dawn being the "softer side of Buffy" -- Jen C., 22:11:47
05/24/01 Thu

I've been thinking that Dawn is the innocent part of Buffy, the Buffy that
was never the Slayer and didn't have to experience the pain that the last 5
years have brought her. Buffy could never go back to what she was before she
was called, but she could let that part of her that would never experience
it go on in her stead.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Thoughts on Dawn being the "softer side of Buffy" -- Steve,
23:56:04 05/24/01 Thu

Perhaps I am giving Dawn too much credit for being an individual, but I
didn't see her as "innocent".

What do we even mean here by "innocent"?

Dawn is a great person, but comparing the two Buffy seemed "softer". Dawn
was inexperienced, but eager, she constantly watched, wrote, and then
reacted. She really wanted to understand the world around her, and when it
attacked her (like when it took her mother from her) she wanted to fight
back. I found the two's approaches to things totally different. Buffy tried
not to think about things until she absolutely had to, whereas Dawn tends to
obssess about things.

Dawn isn't Buffy. She doesn't act like Buffy. She doesn't think like Buffy.
She is a great person in her own right, but don't make the mistake of
thinking she is "bitty Buffy". Just like I am not my brother (though we
might be similar in many ways), Dawn isn't Buffy.

Now Buffy might have this false impression of Dawn of being the "little girl
Buffy wanted to be", but that impression was as false as Dawn's impression
of Buffy as being the Big Sister who always stays strong regardless. Still
both sisters' views of each other are sentimentally touching and
understandable.

It is time that we stopped seeing Dawn through Buffy's eyes. Dawn is growing
up. Buffy could never accept that. Dawn is her own person not the perfect
archetype Buffy set up in her own mind to fill her own needs and desires.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Thoughts on Dawn being the "softer side of Buffy" -- Max,
00:25:26 05/25/01 Fri

Another thing about Dawn is she seems to seek out evil.

Buffy always had evil thrusted upon her. She tried to run, but they would
always be there.

Dawn sought out Spike. And when her Mother died, she sought out the dark
arts. Dawn doesn't seek out evil to become it, but there is a curiousity and
for a lack of a better word a desire to understand it.

Dawn is basically good, but she wants to seek life out. She doesn't want to
be "normal girl" like Buffy did. Hanging out at the mall, going to
cheerleader practice, flirting with Boys (though she has nothing against
Boys), that's not Dawn.

Dawn reminds me a lot like Nancy Drew. Buffy on the other hand would have
been perfectly happy if the only problem she had was deciding which of the
many boys (and I am sure there would have been many boys) she should accept
to take her to the prom.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Thoughts on Dawn being the "softer side of Buffy" -- Sue,
00:30:42 05/25/01 Fri

Dawn has an "edge" to her, that Buffy never did. No of the two Buffy is
"softer side" gal.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Thoughts on Dawn being the "softer side of Buffy" -- OnM,
06:29:44 05/25/01 Fri

In other words, Dawn could have a bit of this Faith-like quality to her?
That would really freak Buffy out if she became aware of it, wouldn't it?

We still have those little clues that were dropped, but not resolved this
year, like the klepto stuff, and as you pointed out, the desire to 'touch'
evil out of curiousity, not a desire to emulate it, necessarily.

Perhaps just a mite of the 'Want, take, have' gene? We know Buffy has this
gene, she eventually recognized it and pulled back, her inherent moral
center stopping her before going too far. I suspect Dawn has this same
center, and would pull back also, but Buffy would tend to react in fear if
she thought Dawn being like Faith was even a remote possibility, that the
'innocence' is not as pure as she thinks.

Just like any 'parent' would.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Thoughts on Dawn being the "softer side of Buffy" -- Sue,
06:33:10 05/25/01 Fri

Dawn reminds me of Scappy Doo.

Let me at them!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Thoughts on Dawn being the "softer side of Buffy" --
verdantheart, 06:57:50 05/25/01 Fri

Absolutely. Dawn likes to hang out with Spike. I don't picture Buffy keeping
company with that sort of person at the same age.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Thoughts on Dawn being the "softer side of Buffy" --
rowan, 17:31:44 05/25/01 Fri

Dawn's obviously has better taste than Buffy did at her age. :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> :) -- verdantheart, 13:29:45 05/29/01 Tue

------------------------------------------------------------------------


Willow's darkness -- j, 10:41:53 05/24/01 Thu

Anyone else hoping to see Willow deal with the playing with the Darkest
Magicks? Actually this is more than a hope, she has to deal with this in
some form or another.
There must be consequences for her actions. Nightmares maybe or even
temptation to keep using these dark arts (if you only knew the power of the
dark side...)
Sure she was offered to take a position with that one demon (can't remember
the name) and refused, but now she's tasted the darkness and used it for her
own purposes (albeit for 'good')
evil has sharp teeth and never forgets

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Willow's darkness -- LoriAnn, 10:54:29 05/24/01 Thu

"evil has sharp teeth and never forgets"

Evil must be kind of like an elephant, which has long teeth and never
forgets. Both start with "e" too. You may be on to something.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> I hope so too -- Traveler, 11:49:44 05/24/01 Thu

If Buffy were to stay gone, I could easily see Willow taking over for her
single handedly. As Buffy said, the witch is now the most powerful scoobie.
I'm pretty much assuming that Joss is eventually going to do something to
tone down that power, or at least make it less trustworthy, because
otherwise there is no need for a Slayer to protect Sunnydale. After standing
up to a god, how could a measily vampire defeat Willow?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> "After standing up to a god, how could a measily vampire defeat
Willow?" -- Manoon, 01:08:49 05/25/01 Fri

that probably says it all. Some posts have suggested Willow ultimately being
so consumed by the darkness she has opened, that she becomes next seasons
big bad

whereas I am unsure that would happen (to that extent anyway), I dont even
know if i would like it or not. something will happen to willow as a result
of tapping into the darker magic, but she will ultimately be saved. probably
by Tara. role reversal, yep, I think I'd like that much more. anyway, we'll
see!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: "After standing up to a god, how could a measily vampire defeat
Willow?" -- Aelith, 05:44:43 05/25/01 Fri

Does any one else see Willow headed for a spin-off? There can't be two
leader's on the show and Willow just showed an awfull lot of leadership.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Big Bad, Little Bad -- mundusmundi, 16:02:05 05/25/01 Fri

Usually, when it comes to Buffy villains, there are two Big Bads -- or maybe
a Big Bad and a Little Bad. And sometimes it gets a wee confusing as to
which is which, e.g., Angelus/Spike, The Mayor/Faith, Adam/The Initiative,
and Glory/Doc. Frankly, I found Doc's limited screen time scary as hell
(Joel Grey understands the power of subtle suggestion) and would have liked
to have seen him integrated more in the Glory/Key arc. Better luck next
season.

Anyway, if Willow ever becomes a baddie, she'll likely have some sort of
mentor. Maybe Doc? Scary thought.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Big Bad, Little Bad -- Wiccagrrl, 11:12:49 05/26/01 Sat

I kinda doubt Willow will be the big bad next year- although, I have a
feeling that the following season, which will likely be the last of the
series, will have a core scoob turning bad (maybe vamped?) Could be Willow,
with her "darkest magicks" Or (and I think I might like this idea better)
could be Giles getting vamped. I mean, who would be a better foe for Buffy
than the man who taught her how to fight the good fight in the first place?
Would it be too close to the Angel/Angelus storyline? Possibly- depends on
how it's handled, I guess.

As for this year, I don't know who the big bad'll be...but I think it's
possible that, when Buffy comes back, she might not be herself at first. She
won't be the big bad...but she might be the decoy-bad or little-bad at
first. A lot will depend on how he comes back.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Big guns -- squireboy, 07:18:17 05/25/01 Fri

Willow's now a big gun. Big guns need time to charge up, reload, etc.,
between firings. The Slayer is the one continuing the fight, soaking up the
abuse, and wearing down the foe, while Willow is curled up on the floor with
blood coming out of her nose.
I think Willow is fabulous, but I don't see her being able to carry the good
fight all on her own. There are consequences to the power she is
using/calling on. I don't think we've begun to see all those yet either.


Valet Service - specluations on next season -- wilder, 16:00:20 05/24/01 Thu

My apologize if this has already been touched on; I haven't had a chance to
read all the below posts....

Now this theory might not work considering the two series are spilt among
the two netowrks, but:
Doesn't that mystical valet owe Angel a life after the test he went through
to save Darla? Is it possible that this was set up to give Buffy a way back.
I can't see any Wolfram & Hart methods being used to raise the slayer. And
we already have a moral dilemma behind using magic to bring back the dead.
So, I'm having a hard time seeing how this is going to be resolved. With the
way Joss usually does it, the method of Buffy's ressurection has already
been established. And I doubt that is is going to turn into one really long
dream sequence. Thoughts?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Valet Service - specluations on next season -- shelley, 17:12:29
05/24/01 Thu

I know the possibility of a crossover is limited, but as I posted earlier,
Fox's Ally McBeal and ABC's The Practice had characters cross over to each
other because they were both written by David E. Kelly. (And those two shows
really weren't linked in any way other than Boston locale and lawyer
characters.) So I would assume it's still possible in the future for Angel
characters to be on Buffy and vice versa. Maybe a little more tricky, but
possible. Just a thought.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Valet Service - specluations on next season -- rowan, 18:54:37
05/24/01 Thu

I thought it was interesting how in Joss' interview with TV Guide (posted
below) he assured us that Buffy is indeed rotting in her grave and in
another interview he referred to her "rebirth". Definitely clues to how
she's coming back, but not ones that I can interpret! I mean, there's
definitely a difference between resurrection and rebirth, for example.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Valet Service - specluations on next season -- Solitude1056,
19:42:59 05/24/01 Thu

There's a petition going on to send to the WB & UPN to allow cross-overs.
It's actually stated quite diplomatically, and doesn't shove the point that
we DEMAND cross-overs... just that the fans realize (and want the networks
to realize) that sometimes a cross-over is a valuable storytelling tool. You
can find it at www.slayage.com.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
730 ( A little late in the game, but hey...) -- Lucifer_Sponge, 10:59:34
05/22/01 Tue

I don't know if this has been pointed out before... but 7 plus 3 is 10,
obviosly. So, ten plus the zero that's already there adds up to 100. And
tonight's the 100th episode. Anyone think I might have just stumbled onto
what Joss meant by that little enigmatic set of digits?

~Sponge

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: 730 Buffy/Faith conclusions -- Simplicity, 13:44:05 05/22/01 Tue

It is also 365 (the number of days in a year) X 2. It was said two years
ago! I watched Graduation Day 1 and 2 this weekend. Did you notice that when
Faith sees Buffy she says "All dressed up in big sister's clothes?"
Chilling, now that Buffy might have to kill her baby sister.Also, maybe
referring that Buffy has to become more like Faith to win. Faith could kill
humans and seemed to enjoy it. Buffy has not been able to.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: 730 Buffy/Faith conclusions -- cynthia, 22:04:21 05/22/01 Tue

I always thought that 730 meant 7 heros, Buffy, Giles, Faith, Anya, Willow,
Xander and Spike. 3 bad guys, Glory, Doc and, in the end, Ben. And 0 (as in
unknown or non-existing) Dawn (as she was decribed by Joyce as not being
real).

I'm guessing that all the guesses might be true. LOL

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Freaky OT number factoid... -- OnM, 16:24:49 05/22/01 Tue

Did you know that the multiples of 9 between 9 and 90 always add up to 9 if
you sum the two digits?

As such: 09...18...27...36...45...54...63...72...81...90

Then 99 is the exception, after which:

108...117...126...135...144...153...162...171...180

Kewl, ja?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Kewl, ja? -- FanMan, 23:11:14 05/22/01 Tue

Ja.

Back to the show. I wonder how many meanings 730 was supposed to have for
the writers?
Think fans have come up with two times as many meanings as the writers
intended? Three? Four? At least four interpetations have been very
reasonable.
Anyone know how many interpetations of 730 fans have come up with in the
last two years? Only asking for a reasonable guess.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Freaky OT number factoid... -- Brian, 06:08:25 05/23/01 Wed

And two more additions equals 9:

99=18=9, 189=18=9, 198=18=9

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Freaky OT number factoid... -- Maladanza, 11:32:42 05/23/01 Wed

"Did you know that the multiples of 9 between 9 and 90 always add up to 9 if
you sum the two digits?

As such: 09...18...27...36...45...54...63...72...81...90

Then 99 is the exception, after which:

108...117...126...135...144...153...162...171...180"

This only works in base 10 -- try it in hexadecimal. However, multiple of 15
work in hex (0F, 1E, 2D,...69, 78,...F0) -- although hex also breaks down at
FF (255). In fact, the rule works for multiples of numbers one less than the
base (so base 8 works for multiples of 7).

Not too surprising, actually. Consider that multiplying by 9 is really just
adding alot of 9 -- or think of it as adding (10 - 1) -- i.e., you are
incrementing the tens digit by one and decrementing the one's digit by one
each time, so the sum of the digits remains the same.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Neat! Makes perfect sense, never considered other number bases.
Xtra Kewl! ;) -- OnM, 17:07:40 05/24/01 Thu


The Gift....sacrifice or escape from duty...... -- Rufus, 16:25:44 05/24/01
Thu

Buffy started a normal girl, just a girl, who wanted to have a normal life.
As the slayer that dream evaporated. Her duty was to kill to protect the
world...at what price. Earlier in FFL she found out that it may not be her
strongest or best opponent that may kill her but the lucky one. One that
gets her in a moment when she is tired of it all. She was afraid to die.
Spike told her that her friends and family kept her connected to this world.
Now her strongest tie her mother has passed on. In the first scenes Buffy
slays a vampire who doesn't know who she is. The boy she saved said she was
just a girl. She was weary and a bit burnt out. She tells Giles that if Dawn
dies she will quit as everything will have been stripped away. Then we come
to the end of the episode and she realizes her gift and runs to jump to her
destiny. Her words to Dawn are:

Buffy: "No, Dawnie, I have to. Listen. ......Now Dawn listen to me. Listen.
I love you. I will always love you, but this is the WORK I have to
do......Tell Giles...tell Giles I figured it out....and I'm OK. And give my
love to my friends. You have to take care of them now. You have to take care
of each other. You have to be strong. Dawn, the hardest thing in this world
is to live in it. Be brave. Live....for me."

Buffy wanted a normal life, complete with the choice on how to live it. She
understood that she killed to protect but never got the reason why, until
she found her gift. She is the Slayer, she protects the world from reverting
to the hell it started as. She is the Sacrifice so all can live. She didn't
jump into the portal to escape a life not worth living but because she
finally understood just how important it was to keep humanity alive. She
knew what her work was. She knew that she had to go through the pain to
realize that work. She loved Dawn and the world so much that she gladly died
to save the world, not just her sister. She knew that she could close the
portal, not just a quess. As surely as she knew it was right to sacrifice
Angel in B2, she knew that it was her turn to sacrifice herself. She had the
faith that the world was valuable enough to continue to exist. She had the
courage to give up the life she had been so afraid of losing in FFL. She was
doing her job.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: The Gift....sacrifice or escape from duty...... -- Anthony8, 18:48:24
05/24/01 Thu

Her sacrifice is the perfect gift because only the human individual "Buffy"
is destroyed. "Buffy" the individual is the most dispensable (I know there
is a better word out there)member of the SG because her role as Slayer,
protector of humanity, will continue on in the next one to receive The Call.
It is an interesting contrast to Angel's attempted sacrifice for Darla in
"The Trial." There, he was willing to sacrifice his person and role as
protector of the innocent for an individual who, it turns out, cannot be
saved after all. Also remember that although Angel does submit to potential
oblivion, he does so flinchingly (as the stakes fly towards him). Buffy, on
the other hand, meets her end eyes open and with absolute clarity. It's her
epiphany.

A8

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: The Gift....sacrifice or escape from duty...... -- squireboy,
20:35:11 05/24/01 Thu

Dispensable? The Slayer? No, "The Wish" proved that valiant as the Scoobies
may be, they need the Slayer to pull them together and give their cause a
focus or they would fail in the Slayer's task of holding back the darkness.
I'm not yet resolved as to the nobility of Buffy's swan dive. I think there
was a certain amount of Spike's "Slayer death wish" there, and an
unwillingness to face the ongoing struggle with another life element
stripped away. I'm not entirely buying Buffy's sacrifice for Dawn because
Buffy's (can we even say *irrational*) protectiveness of Dawn is an
*ensorcelment*. Dawn isn't her sister. Buffy may be clutching to her as a
sister now, but threatening to kill the Scoobies (when she can't/won't kill
innocents like Ben)just screams to me the deep-rooted effects of the monks'
spell and the lingering emotional damage of all the loss she has suffered
this season.
Buffy stole Dawn's place. It was the Key's place to close the portal with
her life, and Buffy grabbed it.
This Slayer isn't that dispensable. A new Slayer is much more likely to be
an inexperienced, frightened girl like Dawn than a battle-hardened vet like
Buffy. Darkness would likely profit from a Slayer trade-in.
Unless there was something else "figured out" in Buffy's leap (ie. she knew
there would be a way back), Buffy's sacrifice is a bad trade for the good
guys and Buffy is shirking her duty to do it, even considering her fill of
the stripping away, and the sacrifice of others. Abandoning Light to the
tender mercies of imprisoned Faith or some unprepared girl somewhere isn't
noble at all.
I can't see a way past it being anything but selfish.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: The Gift....sacrifice or escape from duty...... -- Anthony8,
20:50:06 05/24/01 Thu

Whew! You're a tough room! I'm pretty sure, though, that it was Joss
Whedon's intent to have Buffy's sacrifice be a noble one. But, I'm
curious--under what circumstances, if any, would you think such a sacrifice
would not be selfish?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: The Gift....sacrifice or escape from duty...... -- Rufus,
20:58:12 05/24/01 Thu

You got me on the selfish bit too. I don't get how anyone can see Buffys act
as selfish. But at other sites it's the same thing where some people can't
get past the selfish bit.
In the beginning of the ep if you go to the shooting script where there is a
bit of her words we never hear. She makes it clear she see's Dawn as a
daughter. Her connection to Dawn is physical as well as just built memories,
she may not have given birth to Dawn but she feels a physical connection to
her that she can't ignore. That would explain further her protective actions
in this episode. In the end of the episode she says she gets it she
understands what her gift is about. I think we may not fully understand what
she meant til next season. She called what she was doing her work.....it
gave me a feeling that she considered her work not finished. Did she
understand something that the SG won't until she is brought back to life?
Buffy instinctively knew she was doing the right thing, just as in B2, I
trust that instinct.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: The Gift....sacrifice or escape from duty...... --
squireboy, 21:15:04 05/24/01 Thu

Yeah, I'm tough on the Slayer, she's my hero after all. :)
I'm not as sure that joss meant for the sacrifice to be noble, or at least
unequivocally noble. Death can be a gift *to* her, as well as from her.
There are plenty of other clues about her seeking death, and joss has never
been cut-and-dried about the major issues. Ambivalence is us.
Your question, is there a situation where I feel the sacrifice is not so
selfish? Sure. The Key cannot seal the rift, only the Slayer can. Or, the
Slayer must sacrifice herself, but the key will be destroyed anyway/return
to her reality/monks' spell unravels. Buffy's narrowing of her focus from
her greater purpose (saving the world, sunnydale, even the scoobies) to
entirely focusing on how important it is that Dawn carries on (as her
legacy, her child?) seems to me an abandonment of all she has fought for,
*and it isn't even real* (except that it has become somewhat real. I'm not
disputing the existence of Dawn, only her legitimacy :)
Buffy has been drawn down into Spike's assertion that it is only her
connections to the world that keep her in it (and taken it too far in
believing that only her blood connections can keep her in it) and I just
don't buy that her sacred duty is worth abandoning for an extended magical
construct. (Okay maybe that's a little harsh, but you get my drift :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The Gift....sacrifice or escape from duty...... -- Rufus,
21:25:58 05/24/01 Thu

I get what you mean but look at it this way......you have a new form of life
that previously only had one known function now she is human. In that
humanity comes an understanding and appreciation of the world as it is. When
the earth started in the Buffyverse it wasn't paradise but a hell. For some
unknown reason the demons lost their purchase(hold) on this reality, they
were driven to other dimensions. In one of the other dimensions there was a
hellgod Glory, shortly after she began the key was created. There seems to
be a constant balance in power going on, one power answered by another. I
think that perhaps the key was created as more than just the one function we
see. This could be what the monks were working so hard for and willing to
die for. When they made Dawn from part of Buffy there had to be a reason.
Dawn isn't just the key, she is now part of Buffy, I think that may be
important in the future. Buffy feels like Dawn is her daughter, she would
die to protect her daughter. The monks are gone but they seemed to know
exactly what they were doing in sending the key to the slayer....something
so important that the slayer would die to protect this new form of life.
Something in what Buffy said about her work made me think that she knew at
some level her work wasn't over.....just one leg of her journey was.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Gift....sacrifice or escape from duty...... --
squireboy, 21:47:14 05/24/01 Thu

Yup, I suppose part of my problem with it, is that it is too much of a leap
of faith for my liking. I'm a rationalist. There is a fight still to be
fought. Vampires will be rising tomorrow (and a new power, eventually) and
the SG, even with Spike (who has an uncertainty about him) are not up to the
task.
Unless there is something that Buffy figured out before the leap so she knew
she was coming back somehow, or knew that Dawn was going to be a new
uber-weapon against the Dark (every prophecy about the Key has now been
fulfilled -- what's left?), the nobility of the act is absent, for me.

I was unspoiled for the finale (thankfully) but I knew about the move to
UPN. I have friends who are mature, intelligent, thoughtful, dedicated
viewers who didn't know, and they were devastated by the episode and ending.
Cool way to go out, but thank goodness there is an escape clause.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Gift....sacrifice or escape from duty...... --
Rufus, 21:49:41 05/24/01 Thu

I really have to put my business side to rest when I watch shows like Buffy
cause I like things to make sense and be fixable.....with this show I have
to think. I still do treat it like a mystery to be solved.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Gift....sacrifice or escape from duty......
-- squireboy, 06:30:59 05/25/01 Fri

There is no fictional art without willing suspension of disbelief, but part
of what appeals to me about BTVS is the writing is so consistently good that
even with the hodgepodge stew of fantastical elements that is this show,
there are vanishingly few "aw, come on!" moments. Things always matter,
always have a later effect in the show.
I enjoy the mystery aspects of the show very much too, and it will be
fascinating to see how Sarah Michelle Gellar as Buffy in S6 is reconciled
with Buffy "rotting in her grave as we speak" (thanks for that joss :(, but
I'm unhappy with the Slayer's sacrifice as we know it. It wasn't for good
enough reasons, considering the consequences as we know them, in my view.
I don't mean to flog away at this endlessly for those who are bored with
this conversation :). I'm enjoying the discussion and it's helping me to go
over the details of why I find the ending so unsatisfactory. Strangely, it
would be easier to accept if it had been the end of the series. It would
piss me off, but I appreciate the desire to go out with a bang, and I accept
the inevitability of the Slayer's death (one good day). But if we are going
on, in joss' amazingly consistent world, the good guys are going to have to
play fatally short-handed unless/until the resurrection/rebirth.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: I yield to your logic (somewhat) -- Anthony8, 21:44:27
05/24/01 Thu

I get your point. This may sound cynical (but it really isn't), but my
comments were based on the assumption that there is no such thing as an
absolutely selfless individual (especially in the Buffyverse) so it is only
the degree of selfishness that determines how noble a self-destructive
action is. I'm not as tough on my heroes because I identify with them with
respect to my own weaknesses and faults.

There is an interesting book called "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins
that hyposthesizes the genetic predisposition of all living things to be
selfish (particularly in the commission of "altruistic" acts). Some of my
personal philosophy and, consequently, my take on this thread is in
agreement with the basic concepts presented in that book.

A8

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I yield to your logic (somewhat) -- Rufus, 21:53:59
05/24/01 Thu

I agree that to survive as a species selfishness is a very good trait to
have...it makes sense. In Buffy however only some of the characters have
this trait....I wonder if as human beings we only became less selfish when
it was clear that we were the top of the chain.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> I'll take door number one, Bob. -- Solitude1056, 21:51:50 05/24/01
Thu

Granted, all good points. But there's only three options faced by Dawn and
Buffy: either Buffy dies, or Dawn dies. Or, both could hold on for a few
more minutes and watch their world die along with them.

Setting aside Buffy's total insistence that her sister survive the ritual,
there's also got to be part of the Monks' intent riding inside Buffy's
decision. A Slayer is a creature that comes along anywhere from every year
to every few years, depending on how long a single Slayer can survive.
Buffy's held on for (apparently) a lot longer than most. Whether her
replacement is Faith or another Slayer, there's still the assumption that
another one will come along... (and the Monks probably knew this, too.)

But there's only one Key.

Buffy didn't just sacrifice herself to "save the world," although I imagine
that's a nice benefit. She sacrificed herself to save a potentiality, that
of the Key - who just happens to also be her flesh and blood, latecomer
sister. In that sense - and not just because I have a sister - I can relate.
If my sister could potentially have the power to open doors, in better
circumstances than this one, sure... I'd make Buffy's choice, too. Remember
Glory's line about "a vampire slayer? how common!" Buffy knows she's one of
a long line... but there's only one Dawn.

In that sense, I don't see Buffy's act as selfish, done to relieve herself
of experiencing more pain. Nor do I see it as selfish in the sense that
she's leaving her only kin to pick up the pieces. I see it as a true gift,
from one who knows her own potential, to one who has not yet realized hers.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Ack! Not Door Number One! . .. :) -- squireboy, 07:02:40
05/25/01 Fri

Fascinating points and perspective.
I have a sister who I cherish too. If I had been the Slayer there, I might
have chucked her into the portal myself, (Sorry Gail, I still love you :)
although I maintain Buffy stole Dawn's appropriate sacrifice. I guess I feel
that the whole thing is a bit too contrived. We know next to nothing of
these monks and their knowledge and motives (unlike many other mystical
entities that we know in great detail), but we are expected to trust blindly
that their transformation of the Key into a human will make it/her into
something so much more than what it was (a dimensional gateway) that it is
worth losing the Slayer over and risking the earth.
The show isn't "Dawn, the Clueless and Apparently Powerless (except as a
blood ritual) Brat."
Open what doors? In all of the Buffyverse experience to this point, doors
lead to hell. All of them. Doors are bad. Guardians are set to protect areas
around them, or at least minimize the damage. We haven't seen any indication
that Dawn is some kind of harbinger of Heaven On Earth (with the exception
of the crucifixion imagery). It seems a hell of a dice role, when you don't
know you'll be back to deal with the consequences or clean up the mess, for
once.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: The Gift....sacrifice or escape from duty...(way long) -- Pen,
21:58:32 05/24/01 Thu

And yet...Buffy embodies the characteristic duality of every truly
humanistic hero -- self-sacrifice and the will to live. The connection
between Spike's powerful but facile interpretation of the slayer deathwish
and the interpretation of Buffy's actual (well, until next season) death was
hammered home throughout the last few episodes; yet, when crunch time came,
we were presented with a sacrifice that had nothing to do with despair or
fear or even just weariness. The writers were never subtle -- whether it was
Buffy in catatonia telling Willow she just wanted it to be over, or Buffy in
the back of the Winnie talking about how tired she was, we were led down the
path of some conflation between the deathwish Slayer of Spike's worldview
and Buffy on the ropes while trying to save both the world and Dawn (and who
believes she prioritized in that order?) But the Buffy we saw in "The Gift"
didn't want to die. Escape from her duty? Perhaps. The rather lowkey
declaration that if Dawn died, Buffy would hang up her spurs struck me as
almost uncharacteristic of the emotionally charged Buffy who threatened to
kill anyone who came near Dawn -- actually threatened the lives of the
people who fought by her side, saved her life, suffered through trials of
fire and fury with her. But the prospect of Dawn's death twice brought her
to an anticlimax (including the catatonia where she said,
matter-of-factedly, approximately, "I would grieve, people would feel sorry
for me." We see a side of Buffy that struggles to respond to the greatest
challenge a hero must face: an implicit rather than explicit evil. She can
fight Glory (well, sort of) but not an evil so banal and pervasive that it
can categorized as mere unfairness. She detests the stakes she must fight
for here because they represent perhaps the most modern sort of evil she has
ever faced -- the existentialist evil that is less malicious than impartial,
the evil that would drive otherwise good people to commit acts that they
would suffer guilt for, but not regret per se. The Order of Byzantium
follows a credo that, to all appearances, carries out murder as a last
resort, done only because it cannot tolerate the alternative. Giles would
likely have killed her (as he did kill Ben/Glory) and one can imagine that
Xander or even Willow would have found the strength in the end (though it
might have broken them.) Even Glory doesn't seek Dawn's death, exactly: Dawn
just happens to be in the path of what Glory does want. Dawn doesn't deserve
to die, but her very nature makes innocence almost a crime that must be
expatiated.
Against this, Buffy has only two certainties: 1) that she loves Dawn; and 2)
that she, as a Slayer, could not kill, or allow the death of, an human
being. She remembers her nature, as Giles points out to Ben, and the impulse
that leads her to sacrifice herself in her sister's place is, in many ways,
the exact same impulse that keeps her from killing Ben.
But in the end, it wasn't her duty or her slayer nature that sent her into
the portal. Remember, she didn't even think about the possibility she could
close it until after she had stopped Dawn from jumping and Dawn began the
fateful protest that pounded home the importance of blood. No...if Buffy is
a hero, she is the sort of hero that makes epics. There's no glory, barely
even interest, in a hero that doesn't want to live anyway. The suicide is
always pathetic, banal. There's no question of sacrifice in such cases, only
surrender. Buffy wants to live. Perhaps she wants it all to be over, but she
can hardly be faulted for that. In that way, she is the same as the 16 year
old girl in PG who told Giles and Angel, "I don't want to die," yet in the
end walks down to sure death after seeing Willow in pain. A humanistic hero,
in a way that Frodo Baggins was, and James Bond never could be. She's just a
girl, a person, an issue Campbell himself discusses, and while she would die
to save the world, that wouldn't necessarily be her primary reason. She dies
because she feels she has to to save what's important to her, not because
she wants to or needs to. Duty has little to do with it, either as something
to be followed or something to escape. That is the mark of a true hero --
someone who acts for very human reasons in the face of inhuman contexts.
That is what she has to offer against the existentialist world: a death that
actually means something rather than merely symbolizing something. It's the
very thing that Campbell did to the Jungian archetype -- brought it down to
the level of the individual hero. In short...Buffy's death was poignant
precisely because she didn't want to die and yet was willing to sacrifice
herself in place of the scapegoat (which is a whole 'nother thread -- the
reversal of traditional religious imagery.)
[Addendum] What makes this all the more compelling is the fact that we are
hard-pressed to doubt that any other member of the Scooby Gang (well, maybe
not Anya) would have done exactly the same thing. We should have no
difficulty imagining Giles tossing himself off that ledge. But if the
difference between them and Buffy is capsulized in Giles speech to Ben. If
death is her gift, it is the gift she gives, not that she inflicts. Perhaps
Giles is right, and that is why she is a hero -- she maintains the surety of
right and wrong even in the face of ambiguity. Is she right? Would she not
be of greater value (the question posed to Angel) alive than Dawn? It
doesn't matter. As Angel demonstrated, such choices can be analyzed
endlessly by armchair philosophers, but in the end, only the hero can make
the decision. And he/she will make the right decision by default...because
there can be no gainsaying it. What's the trade-off? A hypothetical for a
reality? Nobility has nothing to do with it. She sacrificed herself because
human life is precious -- every life. She can't kill Ben just because he
might morph into Glory and go on a rampage in the undetermined future. Giles
can because, as he admits, his ideals are of a lesser sort. Buffy dies for
Dawn as she would die for a random stranger -- as she risks doing every time
she rescues one from a vampire. Admittedly, Dawn is far more important to
her...but it's a difference of degree, not kind.
Sorry for the length -- trying to avoid actual work that I'm supposed to be
doing. Thoughts? comments? invectives? hysterical laughter? I know there's
quite enough vagueness here to take this little monologue quite apart. Feel
free.
*
*
*
*
************************************************************
"We band of buggered" hah! loved it. Wonder how long Joss has been waiting
to use that particular pun in a show?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: The Gift....sacrifice or escape from duty...(way long) --
freshwater, 07:02:14 05/25/01 Fri

Great points!

For me, the most important point you brought up was that Buffy died for love
not duty. I didn't see the KoB as heroic, just dutiful. They had a duty,
they did it, they died for it. Not that there can't be real acts of heroism
within the context of duty, I just think that love is a higher ideal than
duty. And that, in the end, duty must serve love, not the other way around.
This is exactly what Buffy did, she died for the love of her sister and
humanity, not just because it was her duty to protect them. "No greater love
than this: to lay down your life for your friends" (or something like that).
And, as you said, any of the SG would die to save the others (and hasn't
even Anya been willing to die for at least Xander? I can't remember, but it
seems like it). They are all heroes.

About the scapegoat thing. It's my understanding that the original scapegoat
was a Jewish tradition of taking a goat, and in a religious ritual placing
all the sins of the people on it. The goat would then go running off a cliff
and die, taking the sins of the people with it (Christians believe this is a
pre-figuration of Christ, taking on the sins of the world and dying).
Anyway, my point is that this is actually very similar to Buffy's act, not
necessarily a reversal of the symbolism. Buffy didn't take on the sins of
the world, but she did take to herself their death. She carried the burden
so those she loved wouldn't have to. And the very leap into the portal was
very much like the scapegoat jumping off the cliff. It truly was a
sacrifice. I will, however, also agree with others in this thread that there
really is no selfless act. That in no way diminishes the beauty of
sacrifice. The end and motivation to which the actions are directed define
the beauty of the act. Buffy died because she loved her sister more than
herself, that is a great gift.

And while I'm at it, I've got to strongly disagree with those who keep
saying Dawn isn't really Buffy's sister, that Buffy should get over it, it's
just the spell, etc. Is being physically born of the same mother the only
way two people can be sisters? I think that's just a little too narrow a
view. An adopted sister can be far more a sister than two biological
siblings separated at birth. A true and dear friend can be a sister far more
than a biological sibling. So what difference does it make how Dawn got to
be where she is? Buffy loves her. The love is real. If we want to get all
existential again: the memories of Dawn's life, in as much as they are
mental objects, existing in everyone's minds, are real objects, they exist,
even if they were created by the monks and not normal experience. Dawn's
essence is shaped by her reality. The memory objects are her reality, her
essence comes from those memories. She is Buffy's sister. Every possible
piece of empirical evidence would confirm that, but the only point in this
whole discussion is that Buffy's love is real, and she died for the one she
loves, and that's, by my definition, heroic.

-freshwater


Joss & Shakespeare -- Shiver, 19:41:53 05/24/01 Thu

I have always loved the use of Shakespeare and references to Shakespearean
works in both BtVS and Angel. When Spike and Giles commented that Buffy's
speech (I'll kill anyone who goes after Dawn) was "no Saint Crispin's Day
speech", it made me dash off for my big Shakespeare tome, dusty on the
bookshelf.

The quote is part of a larger speech, from Henry V, Act iv, Scene 3 often
referred to as the St Crispin's Day speech:

If we are mark'd to die, we are enow
To do our country loss; and if to live,
The fewer men, the greater share of honour.
God's will! I pray thee, wish not one man more.
By Jove, I am not covetous for gold,
Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost;
It yearns me not if men my garments wear;
Such outward things dwell not in my desires:
But if it be a sin to covet honour,
I am the most offending soul alive.
No, faith, my coz, wish not a man from England:
God's peace! I would not lose so great an honour
As one man more, methinks, would share from me
For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more!
Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made
And crowns for convoy put into his purse:
We would not die in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.
This day is called the feast of Crispian:
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when the day is named,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian:'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars.
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispian's day.'
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember with advantages
What feats he did that day: then shall our names.
Familiar in his mouth as household words
Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,
Be in their flowing cups freshly remember'd.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember'd;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Joss & Shakespeare -- rowan, 19:48:45 05/24/01 Thu

When Spike told Buffy he would protect Dawn "till the end of the world" my
first thought was that it echoed the line "from this day until the ending of
the world". Imagine my surprise when one scene later, Spike referenced this
speech.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Joss & Shakespeare -- Shiver, 20:20:40 05/24/01 Thu

For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:

Does this signify that Joss plans to allow Spike to remain an integral part
of the gang - he fought with them, he did his best to protect Dawn; he
recognizes Wilow's power and defers to her in a leadership role when Buffy
is not there. But could Spike & Giles speaking lines together be an
indication that Giles & possibly Xander even might be ready to allow a
little slack for Spike henceforth?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Joss & Shakespeare -- rowan, 20:24:07 05/24/01 Thu

I hope so. I interpreted the reference to that scene in Henry V as a
reference to the bonding of the SG and specifically to Spike's inclusion.

Also, one of Buffy's last acts (well, at least in her first incarnation) was
to reinvite Spike into the Summers home. That's got to carry some weight
with the SG.

I think the SG will have a very different (more welcoming) attitude towards
Spike next season, and will view his actions as evidence of some attempt at
"redemption", with an underlying fear of what might happen if the chip
fails.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Joss & Shakespeare -- Anthony8, 20:32:00 05/24/01 Thu

Did you notice that Xander started warming to Spike up a little in "Spiral?"
He helped him light a cigarette and somehat affectionately asked him "have I
told you how much I dislike you today?" Come to think of it, he was pretty
sympathetic regarding the loss of Spike's "favorite toy" in "Intervention,"
as well. The writers really know how to throw in those little subtle
touches, don't they?

A8

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Joss & Shakespeare -- Wisewoman, 20:26:53 05/24/01 Thu

This thread just reminded me of one of my favorite lines in "The Gift," when
Giles and Spike are quoting the speech and instead of "we band of brothers"
Spike says, "we band of buggered!" LOL ;o)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Hey, Rowan....the Shooting Script is up........... -- Rufus, 21:01:52
05/24/01 Thu

It shows at the end where Spike reacts to Buffys death. She is someone he
loves and he feels like he has failed her and Dawn.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Hey, Rowan....the Shooting Script is up........... --
squireboy, 06:45:10 05/25/01 Fri

Rufus, url please? Or email if necessary? Please?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Here you go...........:):) -- Rufus, 06:56:57 05/25/01 Fri

No problem.........

http://www.mustreadtv.com/buffyscripts

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Here you go...........:):) -- squireboy, 07:12:26
05/25/01 Fri

Thanks a bunch! Allow me to buy you a virtual cup of coffee . . . :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Hey, Rowan....the Shooting Script is up........... -- rowan,
13:53:56 05/25/01 Fri

I read it yesterday. Did you notice, Rufus, the stuff that they decided not
to use? For example, they pared down the scene in Buffy's house between
Spike and Buffy. Spike had a couple lines after "Til the end of the world.
Even if that happens to be tonight." that went something like "No one gets
near the Little Bit." There was also some reference in the planning session
to user the SuperSlayer again.

I thought all the cuts (he,he) were excellent choices. It really pared down
the scenes to the bare emotions. Joss is like a surgeon.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Hey, Rowan....the Shooting Script is up........... -- Rufus,
14:38:15 05/25/01 Fri

What they did in the end was perfect. I also noted that out of all her
friends she asked Spike specifically to take care of Dawn. She knows that
Giles loves Dawn but would kill her to save the world, but Spike would keep
the promise til the end of the world. Buffy hasn't killed Spike, she may be
disgusted by him at times but when he was tortured for her in Intervention
she saw that even though a monster he had a loyalty that she may not get
from the others, as they don't feel the same love that Buffy does for Dawn,
and Spike does for Buffy. She may never "love" him but I think she sees
something in him she can trust.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Thanks so much for posting this! I've been looking all over for the full
quote. (n/t) -- Olwen, 21:01:44 05/24/01 Thu


Did Buffy get what she wanted? -- Greg, 20:58:32 05/24/01 Thu

Not that Buffy didn't have to do what she did, because she did. And not that
we shouldn't honor her for her sacrifice. for we should.

But in a way, of all the characters, in the end, Buffy seemed to be the one
who got of easy from this confrontation.

I have the highest respect for Buffy. She made a huge sacrifice. She gave up
everything for her friends. She died at 21. She never had a chance to get
married. She doesn't get to be around her friends anymore. Finish school. No
Angel. No, I am not trying to minimize her sacrifice here, for it is huge.

But death also frees her from her slayer duties. Frees her from her grief
over her mother. All that pain and worry.

It is left to others to pick up the pieces. Dawn for one, losing her Mother
and her big sister in one year and next year she is probably going to have
to slay her Vampire Father (poor Dawn).

They did such a good job protraying how Joyce's death effected those around
her. I realize that they didn't have time to do that for Buffy this year,
but next year I hope they are just as effective protraying how Buffy's death
effects the others. Especially Dawn and Spike.

I think Dawn is going to feel a lot of guilt. She is going to think "why
when I knew I was bleeding didn't I just jump off the ledge before Buffy
could stop me." It should have been me, not her. I killed my sister.

Spike is going to blame himself for not stopping Doc. Doc is probably still
alive. Perhaps the first episode will deal with Dawn and Spike dealing with
their survivor's guilt by hunting down Doc, and pounding his bones into a
fine power like Buffy did with the Master.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Did Buffy get what she wanted? -- Solitude1056, 21:10:32 05/24/01 Thu

It seems reasonable to think that Spike would blame himself for not stopping
Doc. And it might seem equally reasonable to think that Dawn might blame
Spike, as well. But she's not written that way, so I suspect that Spike will
not be able to forgive himself until the two characters are able to relate
to each other, echoing Buffy & Dawn's interaction after their mother's
death. If Dawn forgives Spike for not saving her, then in a way, he's freed
to forgive her for not saving her sister in return. Then again, that's what
friends do for each other, and Spike & Dawn are not only bound now by common
origins (in terms of being something other than what they started as) but
also in terms of being the two circling closest, and most central, to
Buffy's task when Buffy died.

There is always someone left, to pick up the pieces.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Did Buffy get what she wanted? -- Greg, 21:16:13 05/24/01 Thu

"And it might seem equally reasonable to think that Dawn might blame Spike,
as well. But she's not written that way."

Perhaps Dawn will be angry at Spike. That anger though really misdirected
rage that she has about herself.

Why didn't she jump? She would think. Why did she allow Buffy to do what she
should have done?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Because her sister/mother gave her a job to do........... -- Rufus,
22:18:38 05/24/01 Thu

Dawn was willing to jump...I was glad of that cause it meant that the monks
had sent her to the right place when they sent her to Buffy. Dawn valued
life and humanity and understood what would be lost if the portal wasn't
closed. Buffy understood that this was the time to give her gift....she knew
as much as she knew in season 2 that it was the right thing to do. Buffy
left Dawn with instructions to take care of the others. Buffy talked about
her work...and I had the feeling though she would die that her work wasn't
over.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Did Buffy get what she wanted? -- rowan, 13:49:58 05/25/01 Fri

I don't know. This whole thing worries me. Spike and Dawn really only have
each other, in some ways, and I don't honestly want to see alot of
dissension there.

I think that Spike will blame himself and Dawn will blame herself, and they
will help each other get over their guilt. I didn't get a sense when Doc
tossed Spike off the platform that they were anything except grieved and
terrified (and it was evident then that Doc would bleed Dawn before Buffy
arrived).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Did Buffy get what she wanted? -- Sue, 18:12:16 05/25/01 Fri

Deep down Dawn won't blame Spike.

She will blame herself.

Even though it wasn't her fault.

At the moment Doc threw Spike off the platform Dawn was grieved for Spike
and terrified. She didn't blame him.

But who knows how she will feel tomorrow.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> I think she did -- Manoon, 01:50:50 05/25/01 Fri

I think that as an individual, Buffy received such a powerful gift from
Dawn.

Buffy had been having such profound internal conflicts about what being the
Slayer meant - ie. that she felt it was causing her to lose her humanity,
her ability to feel, to love, she was being consumed by the darkness and the
death rather than her life...

...then along comes this cheeky little girl who you cant really help but
like (that's us), and her true identity and origins are revealed to Buffy.
Which reconnects Buffy back to her humanity, she achieves the feelings of
sisterhood, then motherhood, and all the powerful emotions which come with
them (emotions which the SG were not enough for). She's no longer empty,
conflicting (or if she is, much less so) despite the awful consequences of
Dawn's presence, she is never anything except happy and unconditionally
loving of her little sister/child

Which makes it easier for me to understand her decision to sacrifice
herself. It's because Dawn made her alive again.

(anyway, I know what I am trying to say, not sure if I have articulated it
very well... let me know!)


It took Giles to defeat Glory -- Max, 21:23:04 05/24/01 Thu

Think about that, all you opponents of Total War, this summer.

War is Hell. You can not refine it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: It took Giles to defeat Glory -- Pen, 22:35:20 05/24/01 Thu

What Gile's act demonstrated more than anything else was what sets Buffy
apart from the other slayers. Giles performed an essential function, the
task that, gruesome and ethically questionable though it might have been,
needed to be performed in order to preserve the Slayer's victory. The dirty
work, the simple act of murder which absolved the slayer of both
responsibility and blame. She's the hero, he's -- as Willow observes in
"Buffy versus Dracula" -- the sidekick, the practical Sancho alongside the
visionary knight. Borges posits an ending to Don Quixote where Quixote kills
a man, a living flesh and blood human, and either descends into a
neverending spiral of madness or wakes up from his peculiar delusion wracked
with guilt. Giles -- as do the rest of the Scooby Gang in their own ways --
preserves Buffy from the necessities that might cost her the ideals and
faith that make her a hero.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: It took Giles to defeat Glory -- Max, 00:07:36 05/25/01 Fri

Angel, on the other hand, might need to once again "go dark" if he ever
hopes to win his war with Wolfram and Hart.

By the way, now that the season was over what was the point of Angel setting
Darla and Dru on fire?

I was all for it when I thought it was to serve a larger purpose (like
scaring the hell out of Wolfram and Hart) but since nothing came out of the
act it does seem wrong.

Was it just Angel being cruel? Cruelity for personal pleasure is most always
wrong.

I still say that the true epiphany was when Angel walked out of the wine
cellar, locking the door behind him. That was when he realized what he had
to become to even have a chance to defeat Wolfram and Hart.

Holland Manners sure served Wolfram and Hart when he distracted Angel away
from his true calling. That fake epiphany saved Wolfram and Hart from their
worst nightmare and put all of humanity at great risk.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Should it have taken Giles to defeat Glory? -- Manoon, 01:35:41
05/25/01 Fri

"Giles -- as do the rest of the Scooby Gang in their own ways -- preserves
Buffy from the necessities that might cost her the ideals and faith that
make her a hero."

some people might disagree, and find Buffy's inability to make this decision
(talking about killing Ben), unheroic...
she's the Slayer, the chosen one, if this season has been about her getting
more in touch with her Slayer roots, then isn't part of accepting being the
Slayer making the harder decisions that no-one else is capable of making?

just a thought anyway, not saying is what I believe, I'm more thinking out
loud...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Guess So. -- Max, 06:27:18 05/25/01 Fri

Her not killing Ben is what makes her special.

What makes her good.

We need more people in the world like that.

But we also need people in the world like Giles who are willing to put all
ethics and morals aside for the sake of the larger good. Who are willing to
give up their soul and do evil for the the sake of total war.

War is Hell, you can not refine it.

It was interesting how both Wesley and Giles went Section One in the season
final. This is probably because they were both trained as Watchers.

No, I think Buffy did the right thing in not killing Ben. She isn't like us.
She's better.

But I am also glad that Giles was there to do what needed to be done.

It took both Buffy's act of love and Giles' act of evil to save the world.
That says a lot.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Guess So. -- squireboy, 06:42:18 05/25/01 Fri

Giles suffocating Ben was the thing that rang truest about "The Gift" for
me. It had to be done, and Giles is of the sort that does the things that
need to be done, unpleasant as they may be. The Scoobies are kids, almost
finished playing at being adults, and becoming adults. Although, Xander
might possibly have done what needed to be done too.
I don't see Giles' act as evil at all. Ben isn't really an innocent. He may
technically not be a demon, but he houses a hellgod, and his own choices put
the world and all of reality in deepest peril.
I like Buffy's choice about Ben because it shows her perpetual willingness
to offer a chance at redemption (like Faith) and Buffy's willingness to
clean up the mess again, if necessary. I like Giles' choice too. Hellgods
are extremely unlikely to come to a redemptive state :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Guess So. -- Jessica, 17:23:08 05/25/01 Fri

Ben isn't as innocent as he likes to pretend, he did call the Queller to
kill all the crazy people and he was willing to let Dawn and the rest of the
world die to stay alive. Giles did the right thing he knew that Buffy
wouldn't kill Ben and couldn't kill Ben if she was to stay herself. In the
magic shop when Buffy told Giles about what the guide said that death was
her gift and that meant that been a slayer meant been a killer Giles told
her he didn't think so, when Buffy didn't kill Ben, Giles knew that she
still was a hero and true to who she as always been, a person that uses her
heart and that can give people a second chance, a person that puts the ones
she loves before herself and that will do everything in her power to protect
her family and her friends.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Guess So. -- Sue, 18:25:15 05/25/01 Fri

"I don't see Giles' act as evil at all."

The act of killing a human is evil. Especially someone like Ben who was
basically a victim in all this.

But it seems to be true to defeat evil, one must use evil.

Or to put it another way Giles' ends were just, but his means were ruthless.

If he ever decides to give up being a watcher, I am sure there would be a
position at Section One available for him.

So much for Angel's epiphany!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> She's Not like Us -- Max, 06:44:25 05/25/01 Fri

Buffy was special. She was Good. There are no words to describe how good she
is. It is important that we have people in the world like that.

Otherwise the world would be a very dark place. She brings the world light.

But Giles has his purpose in this world as well.

Giles, squatting over Ben.

GILES
Can you move?

BEN
Need... a minute... She could have
killed me.

GILES
No she couldn't. Never. And sooner
or later, Glory will re-emerge and make
Buffy pay for that mercy, and the world
with her. Buffy even knows that, and
still she wouldn't take a human life.
Because she's a hero, you see.
She's not like us.

BEN
Us?

War is Hell.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: She's Not like Us -- Solitude1056, 08:29:31 05/25/01 Fri

Giles was right: he and Ben are cut from the same cloth.

Ben was willing to let Dawn die, so that he could live. And Giles was
willing to let Ben die, so that everyone else would live. (That is, going on
the basic assumption that it's an either-or choice, given Glory's likely
choice to come back for vengeance. Just as it was Ben's basic assumption
that it was an either-or choice, and it didn't occur to him that simply
stalling the ritual might be enough.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: She's Not like Us -- squireboy, 09:02:54 05/25/01 Fri

But Giles didn't just let Ben die -- he killed him. He *acted* They aren't
the same. Ben is a weasel, loser bad guy and Giles is a hero. A hero doing
the dirty work, but a hero nonetheless.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: She's Not like Us -- Solitude1056, 16:35:45
05/25/01 Fri

Winner or loser? History, it's said, is judged by the victors...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: She's Not like Us -- LoriAnn, 07:17:00 05/27/01
Sun

But what has this to do with good or evil?
That saying is usually used to condemn history as we know it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: She's Not like Us -- Sue, 18:09:32 05/25/01 Fri

Ben is a weasel?

I don't think so. He tried to do his best.

But he wanted to live. It was either him or Dawn.

I can't blame him for his decision.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: She's Not like Us -- Malandanza, 21:09:11 05/25/01
Fri

"But Giles didn't just let Ben die -- he killed him. He *acted* They aren't
the same. Ben is a weasel, loser bad guy and Giles is a hero. A hero doing
the dirty work, but a hero nonetheless."

What makes the scene most chilling to me is that Ben had saved Giles' life.

Do you think Giles would have killed Dawn if Buffy had not realized that she
could substitute her life for her sister's?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: She's Not like Us -- squireboy, 21:57:44
05/25/01 Fri

I don't think Giles would have gotten the chance. Dawn was prepared to make
her own sacrifice before Buffy took the Nestea plunge.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: She's Not like Us -- Greg, 22:02:59 05/25/01 Fri

Yes,

And he would sacrifice Buffy as well if he had too.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Should it have taken Giles to defeat Glory? -- Pen, 09:33:52
05/25/01 Fri

In a sense, I agree, actually. The hero isn't necessarily the one who
sacrifices his/her life. Indeed, one can argue that the greater heroism lies
is sacrificing one's ideals, one's beliefs and sense of self. Dying may be
drastic, but, to state the extremely obvious, at least one doesn't have to
live with the consequences. Perhaps a true hero would have killed Ben even
at the extreme cost of losing herself, her sense of self-worth, in the
process.

But then there's the higher standard. Can one be a hero and act on lesser,
more pragmatic principles at the same time? Would not the act itself be the
very thing that contraindicates heroism in Buffy's terms? I mentioned in
another post the idea that James Bond may be a hero in some ways -- he's
saved the world, civilization, countless nubile big-breasted women -- but he
could never be the epic hero that Buffy is because he acts not on ideals but
on necessity. Put a bullet through the bad guy before he launches the
nuclear missile. Take out the henchmen before they stop you from preventing
the villian's master plan. Do whatever is necessary. For him, those aren't
tough choices at all. There's no particular virtue in making a choice for a
course of action when it goes against everything you believe in. Remember,
traitors and hypocrites are possibly the most reviled sinners of medieval
Hell. Nor is there virtue in making the same choice when it seems logical,
even proper from your perspective. In this, Buffy made the most difficult
choice of all -- not succumbing to the path of practicality. Ideals are hard
things to live up to when the path of least resistance seems to be screaming
for you to follow it. And Giles, in a sense, is every bit as much a hero. He
may be a killer, but he's not a willing one. He didn't kill Ben because he
enjoyed it. He probably didn't even see it as a natural thing to do, as
James Bond would. For him, it was a tragic necessity, and it is the trauma
of those two words that clearly define him as a hero.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: It took Giles to defeat Glory -- Singed Cat, 19:16:19 05/26/01 Sat

"You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having
both at once." --LL


buffy -- imjc, 21:35:44 05/24/01 Thu

I would like to point out to all the posters.
That perhaps we need to see Buffy in a new view or rather a more accurate
view. We can't classify her as just a Slayer. Like Faith or Kendra, Or
Nikki, etc.
She's beyond them. I see Buffy as outside the box, Faith and Kendra are all
in.
She has broken the rules of death before. (And many other rules)

Buffy to me seems like the flaw in the system of the way THINGS were/are
supposed to function.
However, that flaw is the one thing "doing" what the system intended to do
in the first place. Making the flaw aspect not a flaw. (Anyone get what I'm
saying)

So Basically I just would like to point out that. We can't place Buffy at
the same level of speculation as the rest of the characters. She is the one
character IMO that has no real solid rules. Like i.e. Joss could make her
grow white wings and fight a demon for like one EP and then end up saving
NSync from some random vamp.. You know.
Hopefully y'all got my point.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> She is a regular fly in the ointment of traditional CoW rule......:):):)
-- Rufus, 22:03:34 05/24/01 Thu

Buffy is something new....something that can't be tamed and pressed into an
acceptable slayer package...she is so far out of the box that even the
council gave up trying to contain her. Buffy asked questions about her duty,
how to do her duty, and who was the boss of her. She was a 90's form of
Socrates and was too powerful to give hemlock to. She rocks the boat of
convention. Just wait til she comes back...what the heck will the CoW do
with that rebirth?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: buffy -- squireboy, 07:41:49 05/25/01 Fri

I get and accept at least part of your point, but it's not totally
open-ended. Buffy is special, but she can't be in an entirely different
category than all the other characters or there is no suspense or drama. The
writing in this show is wonderfully consistent. There are always
consequences for everything (it's so great!). Things, even Buffy, have a
consistency and logic about them and growth comes at a certain rate and with
a certain price. (I am worried about Willow). Buffy growing wings (for
example) is something that would start to drag the show, as unbelievable as
it is, out of its realm of believability (for me at least). For me, the
strength of the slayer concept, is that she could be any 16 year old girl
with some bestowed and undiscovered powers and that she isn't all-powerful
and all-knowing and that she has to deal within her limitations (expanded
from ours as they may be).

Yes, she's special, but if all bets are off, then the dramatic tension is
gone.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: buffy -- Humanitas, 10:29:56 05/25/01 Fri

The last advice Merrick (Buffy's first Watcher) gave her seems to have taken
root deep in her consciousness:

Merrick: You do everything wrong.
Buffy [sobbing]: I'm sorry...
Merrick: No. Keep doing it wrong. Don't play our game.

Ever since, Buffy has questioned the rules, and broken them whenever
possible and necessary. That doesn't mean that she can grow wings, but it
does mean that she always looks for the third option. In the case of 'The
Gift,' the third option was her own death.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: buffy -- Jessica, 17:04:09 05/25/01 Fri

I agree Buffy is special, she's the first slayer to have died and come back,
she doesn't follow the rules, she is as survived a few apocalypses and
defied the force of evil, she fell in love with a vampire and received help
from another, she is unique and true to herself and she puts the ones she
loves before herself. The fact that she is unconventionnal is the reason she
as survived for so long and the reason she will come back again.


Go and sin no more... -- OnM, 07:13:01 05/25/01 Fri

Unfortunately, have to get ready for the working world now, but had a great
time perusing the board this AM. Thanks to all for, as usual, your
stimulating commentary! :)

Something from my Little Brain for you to ponder in the meantime:

As you may well know, I've been positing the idea for some time now (over a
year, actually) that Buffy's ultimate destiny is to become some sort of
Kwisatz Haderach, a messiah if you prefer.

In Max's, and other posts below, significant comment has been made as to
Giles' role in killing Ben/Glory, that it was both necessary, and also
allowed Buffy to keep the idealism she needs, and how that idealism is
important to retain.

I very much agree, and I think both Giles and Buffy did the right thing.
However, here's a concept based on the messiah point of view.

We all know that Buffy had many opportunities to kill Spike, but something,
some inner instinct-- we still aren't sure what-- kept her from doing so.
Now, as Spike's journey into 'what he is now, not how he started' has
reached a point where Buffy's sparing him *makes sense in retrospect*, was
it wise for Giles to not show mercy to Ben/Glory, as was clearly Buffy's
intention?

In short, did his actions defeat a greater plan that was in progress by the
PTB, and that Buffy instinctively *knew/ without knowing* when she showed
mercy? Or did the PTB intend for things to happen exactly as they did,
including Giles' actions?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Go and sin no more... -- Masquerade, 09:02:42 05/25/01 Fri

The problem with having a world-view that contains the idea that there is a
"greater plan" that we humble humans aren't privy to is that we can't let it
change our actions. We must still act our conscience, act as the people we
are, and not try to second-guess God/the PTB's. For one thing, we aren't
Them, we don't know what they know. For another, to assume we do is to give
justifications to our acts they probably don't deserve. So we need to act as
if there is not a greater plan. And if it is, it will unfold as the greater
powers see fit.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Go and sin no more... -- WatcherBaz, 12:34:39 05/25/01 Fri

These are very Tolkienesque thoughts:

"It was Pity that stayed his hand...pity and the desire not to strike
without need....."

Bilbo, then later Frodo and Sam, spare Gollum, and we later find that only
Gollum spares Frodo from a final failure and the ultimate triumph of Sauron.

or as put by another (paraphrase, and I'm sorry, but I can't recall the
correct attribution):

'There is a higher power governing our fate, rough-hew them though we may."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Sin and Redemption -- Traveler, 12:36:20 05/25/01 Fri

In the Whedonverse, the PTB DO tell you what they want, e.g. Cordy's
visions. Besides which, even if they weren't given to her by the PTB, Buffy
certainly has good instincts. I doubt she ever thought that Spike would
reform, but she allowed him to live and he HAS reformed in many ways.
Probably Buffy knew that Glory would seek revenge, but chose to allow her
(and Ben) to live. Now, we'll never know if Glory would have tried to gain
vengence or not. It's something I'm really pretty curious about.

Glory was very egotistical and enjoyed tormenting others. But if you think
about it, she was nothing compared to Angelus. He was an "artist." Glory was
just a bully. I wonder how Glory would have reacted to the knowledge that 1)
she is forever stuck in Ben's body and this plain of existence and 2) she
was beaten (thoroughly!) by a mortal. At the end, she was rather pathetic as
her worldview was stripped away by Buffy's hammer. For the first time in her
immortal existance, her life was held in someone else's hands, and she had
been spared. Would that change her? Also, she seemed to be integrating with
Ben somehow into a more complex being, one that was capable of feeling guilt
and empathy. Would that process have continued? Again, we'll never know.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Sin and Redemption -- rowan, 13:40:05 05/25/01 Fri

This is a very thought-provoking thread. One almost suspects that trying to
anticipate future developements might result in deteriorating into total
inaction.

I think with Spike, Buffy has had many opportunities to stake him, and
consistently comes away not doing it. But with Ben, she only had to make the
choice once. So, for us to really judge whether Giles' was "hasty" we would
have to have some opportunity to see Buffy in the same situation more than
once.

My gut tells me that Ben had no higher purpose and that his story (and
Glory's is done).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Sin and Redemption -- LoriAnn, 12:30:34 05/26/01 Sat

Ben was human. Do we kill humans based on what they might do in the future?
If that were the case, death chambers would be even more active than they
are now. In fact we would probably end up profiling people: if many people
with certain traits do evil, we'll get rid of all people with those traits,
and we'll never have to worry about that evil again. That would be for the
greater good, wouldn't it?
Buffy did what we should all hope we would have the strength to do: she
showed mercy. What might the ultimate outcome have been had Ben and Glory
survived? Buffy didn't know, Giles didn't know, and we don't know. All we,
as human beings, can do is try to love, have mercy, and turn the other cheek
while we're at it. That doesn't mean lay down and die to make evil's course
easier, but it doesn't mean become evil either.
Giles acted like religious zealots often have. Apparently, his religion,
Watcherism, tells him it is his duty to save the world; moreover, he must
save it at whatever cost. What is the cost of murder, and what Giles did was
undoubtable murder? We can try to fool ourselves by the "greater good"
argument, but that only really works when the person losing the life is the
one who decides to sacrifice for the greater good or, perhaps, if the action
is unavoidable.
If I were Anya or Spike or Angel, I wouldn't go to sleep around Giles. By
the
they-did-it-once-they'll-do-it-again-and-think-of-the-bad-stuff-I-can-keep-from-happening
argument, Giles would have just as much reason to kill any of them as he did
to kill Ben. If Xander dumped Anya, what would she do? No matter what
happens, what will Spike do? If Angel ever has a perfectly happy moment
again, what will happen to the world? He tried to end the world before; kill
him now, and we won't have to worry about it again.
After all, murder in a good cause is. . .. It's still murder, just as much
as if it were in an evil cause.
Many have posted that we need a little evil, too, not just all good. Don't
we have enough evil already? Fighting fire with fire is a poor metaphor
because in the right hands a small fire will stop or control a larger.
However, an evil act only ads to the quantity of evil in the world. Look at
all the people who think others are evil and deserve to die. We see it in
schools, in offices, in families. Years ago a young woman was forbidden by
her mother to see a particular boy friend; I was acquainted with the boy.
The girl decided her mother was evil for ruining her life in this way and
talked the boyfriend into killing evil-mom in a bloody and painful way. He
did. Who decides who is evil? Should this pair have been given the key to
the city for fighting evil or put away for a long, long time? They were
sentenced to prison and are probably still there.
Evil is never justified.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Sin and Redemption -- Rufus, 16:11:46 05/26/01 Sat

I don't see Giles as a zealot, he has taught Buffy restraint. He didn't kill
Ben for what he felt Ben could or would do in the future, he killed Ben
because he contained Glory, who Giles knew would want pointless revenge
against a world that wouldn't worship her. She would destroy all to get even
with Buffy. You may not think what Giles did was right, but I think he made
a hard choice based upon his experience with Glory. He did what he did to
make sure that the people he loved would be safe from future harm.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> The mysterious will of the PTB's -- Masquerade, 13:49:37 05/25/01
Fri

"In the Whedonverse, the PTB DO tell you what they want, e.g. Cordy's
visions."

I don't think the PTB's have ever, through Cordy or Doyle's visions, told
anyone What to do. They simply point out a situation, and leave it to Angel
and the gang to figure out what needs to be done. Can anyone think of a
situation where Angel was clearly told What he was supposed to do through
his friends' visions?

Angel is not told, and there have been mistakes, e.g., killing the good
demon in the Season 2 opener. They give him info, and he makes the choices.
Usually, it's a no-brainer, sometimes, it's not. Most times, figuring out
what the PTB's are pointing out is the first mystery.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: The mysterious will of the PTB's -- VanMoodyGrad, 05:32:10
05/26/01 Sat

If we assume that the visions are messages for Angel, then I would classify
those visions as clear messages on the most part. Even in the example you
gave about him killing the demon warrior for good, Cordy later said there
was some evidence for understanding that Angel was supposed to help him.
I would also assume these visions are pretty straight forward, again on the
most part because Cordy is given times, dates, and of course the visual
picture and emotions of persons being attacked.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The mysterious will of the PTB's -- Masquerade, 11:41:39
05/26/01 Sat

Actually, the only evidence in the ep that Angel was supposed to help that
demon and not kill him was the woman's word that the demon was her
protector. When Angel relayed that information to Cordy, she said, "Oh, so
you were supposed to help him! Thanks for the obscure visions!"

My question was not what we can "assume" based on the visions, but the
content of the visions themselves. Flashes of images, someone being
attacked, a name a place, sometimes not even any hint of danger, just a
person or a place. In no vision has there been instructions, "and you should
save this person's life". That part has always been assumed based on Doyle's
words that the PTB's are good and just want to make things right.

Hence, my point is, that the visions themselves do not ever tell Angel
explicitly what to do. They show him a situation, and he has to decide for
himself what is right.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The mysterious will of the PTB's -- Anthony8, 20:34:05
05/26/01 Sat

I agree. Isn't one of the most important things about "Good" is that it does
not force or manipulate a person to do anything. It seems to me, that, by
definition, even instructing someone to do something is not good because it
reduces or eliminates the element of freewill. One must do the right thing
because it is the right thing to do not because a higher power compels you
or even suggests that you do so. "Evil," on the other hand, is by its
nature, an ends justifies the means based creature. Manipulation and
coercion are its tools. If the PTB employed the same methods they would be
selling "their" collective souls to the other side. They would seem at a
disadvantage, but the conviction that comes with freewill I believe is an
intangible that offsets the possible handicap.

A8

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Sin and Redemption -- change, 16:19:39 05/25/01 Fri

I think there is a problem with letting Glory survive. Even if she gave up
on trying to use Dawn and did not seek revenge on Buffy, she still has to
feed. So, letting her live means that more innocent people would lose their
sanity to her. The way Giles explained it to Ben, it sounded like he was
mostly concerned about Glory coming back for revenge, but I think that would
have been the least of the issues with letting her live.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Sin and Redemption -- Malandanza, 20:40:41 05/25/01 Fri

"I think there is a problem with letting Glory survive. Even if she gave up
on trying to use Dawn and did not seek revenge on Buffy, she still has to
feed. So, letting her live means that more innocent people would lose their
sanity to her. The way Giles explained it to Ben, it sounded like he was
mostly concerned about Glory coming back for revenge, but I think that would
have been the least of the issues with letting her live."

I think Glory was gone back to that dark place in the mind that she
mentioned to Tara and I doubt she would have wanted to return. What would be
waiting for her? Her minions were slaughtered -- any that escaped would have
had their faith shaken (seeing one's god defeated is enough to make one
agnostic). Glory was at her most powerful before this ritual and she was
still defeated -- this was her one shot. (Maybe the minions will switch
their allegiance to Buffy -- imagine the Scoobies staking out Buffy's grave
in an effort to keep the "hobbits with leprosy" from turning it into a
shrine :) one of the things that I have liked about BtVS, is that Joss and
the writers often make me feel sorry for the villians (there are exceptions,
of course: The Master, Angelus and Adam, for example).

But I think the important part of Giles' talk with Ben was directed at Ben,
himself. Giles, like Dawn, understood that Ben was the real monster. He
killed Ben for Ben's crimes, not Glory's -- killing Glory at the same time
was just a bonus.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Sin and Redemption -- LoriAnn, 21:45:19 05/26/01 Sat

Which crimes did Giles know Ben had committed?


Buffy's Perfection (long) -- change, 07:46:23 05/25/01 Fri

I really like BtVS, but as anyone who has read some of my previous posts
knows, I'm a little concerned with the show's recent direction. I think
Buffy is becoming too good a hero. The problem with this is that it makes
her character less realistic. Real people are not perfect, they are not
either all good or all bad. Real people are a mix of strengths and
weaknesses, of good and bad. Buffy is becoming too pure to be a realistic
character.

Take a look at how the other characters on BtVS are protrayed as an example
of what I mean. The other characters have their problems and flaws, and
that's what makes them interesting. Giles is not just an encyclopedia of
arcane knowledge, and not just Buffy's perfect father figure. He has his
dark side (the Ripper persona), he is shown to be weak when it comes to
standing up to the CoW, and he is protrayed as a bit of a slacker (he didn't
work for a year). Willow is becoming morally ambivalent. She has been shown
as being willing to learn and use any magic (i.e. knowledge) regardless of
the consequences, including the "Darkest Magic". She even went off on her
own quest for vengeance. Anyone besides me think she's going to be next
year's big bad? Xander is protrayed as an underachieve. He seems to be one
of the smarter ones in the group, but never tried hard in school, and has no
interest in college. Of all the characters in the show, Dawn has the most
right to be a two dimensional one. She was created by monks less than a year
ago. She has had very few real life experiences of her own. However, even
her character has its interesting quirks. She's protrayed as self centered,
bit of a thief, and has a tendency to blurt out stupid things about Cuba and
the CIA (what kind of Monks were they?). My point is that interesting
characters have both good points and bad points, and that the supporting
characters on BtVS have all been drawn up this way.

Now consider Buffy. The original Buffy also had her flaws. She was self
centered like Dawn and wanted a normal life instead of a Slayer's life. In
PG, she was afraid to die to save the World. After Becoming, she runs away
from home and abandons Sunnydale and the SG. When she gets telepathy in
Earshot, she uses it to cheat in class and to try to read her lover's
private thoughts. She is also almost seduced to the dark side by Faith in
Bad Girls. Things like this are not bad. They are what make characters
interesting. They also make them more realistic. What high school student
wouldn't use telepathy to cheat? Who wouldn't be afraid to die? But, this is
what is missing in the new Buffy. In this last year, Buffy's biggest
mistakes were giving up for a while after having been beaten a couple of
times by a god who seemed to be unbeatable, and being emotionally distant
from Riley when her mother was dieing. Can you really blame Buffy for that?
Are these really failures? I'm not saying that Buffy should be evil, or that
she should be weak. What I'm trying to say is that she is becoming too
perfect. Human beings are not perfect. We all have our failings. But, the
writers have been taking that away from Buffy over the last year.

Consider Buffy's sacrifice. I don't have a problem with the idea of Buffy
sacrificing herself to save her sister. I think that is something that most
people would do. However, it would be hard. People don't want to die, even
to save their loved ones. People are afraid of death. However, this is not
how the new Buffy felt. As soon as she realized she could save Dawn by
committing suicide, she immediately did it. She had no indecision, and no
fear. It appeared to me that she almost smiling when she jumped. Again,
sacrificing yourself to save a loved one is something I agree with. My
problem is with Buffy's lack of human fear and uncertainty. She is becoming
too heroic.

Buffy's sacrifice had a great deal of Christian symbolism in it. Dawn, as an
innocent, was a Christ figure. They even had her hands tied so that she was
in a cruciform position. At the end, Dawn decides to sacrifice herself in
order to save mankind from the demons that will be released from the other
dimensions (i.e. save mankind from descending to hell). Instead, Buffy stops
Dawn and sacrifices herself instead. So, now Buffy has sacrificed herself to
save the Christ figure. Does that make Buffy one better than Christ? Can
anyone see what I mean when I say that Buffy is becoming too perfect?

Look at the debates on this board. The harshest comments I've found so far
are: (1) Buffy's sacrifice was selfish because she should have sacrificed
her sister so that she could be around to protect Sunnydale, (2) Buffy's
sacrifice was not a big deal because there is only one key but the slayer
will be replaced, and (3) Buffy sacrificed herself in part because she had
developed a death wish after years of killing demons and vampires (is this
another way of saying she wanted to atone for her sins?). Does this sound
like a debate about a real person?

I am for Buffy being a hero. However, being a hero does not mean that you
are never afraid, or that you don't have your own problems. It means that
you overcome your fears and your problems to do the right thing. This is
being taking away from the Buffy character.

I really like BtVS. I hope that the writers bring back some of the old
Buffy. Buffy has died and will now be resurrected. Maybe that will change
her and bring back some of her humanity.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Buffy's Perfection (long) -- squireboy, 08:25:40 05/25/01 Fri

Excellent post! You articulated some of the things I've been trying to say
about my discomfort with "The Gift". Just because I've only typed some of
the negative things you noted above, doesn't mean I thought those were the
only problems, they were just the ones I wrote about. :)
Buffy being "too heroic"? I guess that's one way of expressing it. It isn't
the way I was coming at it, when I said I see her sacrifice as selfish. I
don't think this Slayer is disposable. I see her detachment from the
world/her duties and "cocooning" with Dawn as a great failure. The world
needs her badly. What has she left us with? It just doesn't add up.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Buffy's Perfection (long) -- Kerri, 09:06:08 05/25/01 Fri

I completely disagree! I understand what you are saying, but I think that
this year we have seen more of Buffy's flaw's then ever before: we see her
losing battles-both physical and emotional ones. She can't beat Glory. But
more importantly her soul is damaged by everything she went through. When
Buffy is talking to Giles she says that when she sacraficed Angel she knew
it was right, but she doesn't have that anymore. In other words Buffy has
lost her faith in good triumphing over evil, she doesn't see the point in
trying. We also have seen Buffy's flaw of shutting down after her mother's
death.

In the end Buffy realises her role as a slayer, and person, and importantly
a sister which gives her the courage to die. I think this year has shown
Buffy's imperfection anf fears, and by doing so has made her an even more
realistic character.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Buffy's Perfection (long) -- Pen, 10:16:56 05/25/01 Fri

Interesting. Not merely because I think you make some valid points, but
because I've actually had the opposite reaction on many occasions of late.
The younger Buffy was flawed, but we could forgive her for that. "I'm a
teen! I've yet to mature!" she says to Giles, and we understood the truth of
that. But what has troubled (not so much troubled, really, as interested) me
in later days has been the escalation of certain flaws, particularly those
associated with the Slayer. Her immediate reaction to virtually anything is
a threat of violence...from "Please don't be suggesting what I'd have to
kill you for suggesting" (Intervention) to "Look at her like that again and
she'll be the last thing you ever see" (Spiral). And numerous others over
the years. She is willful, often incapable of dealing with the possibility
that she might be in the wrong, arrogant, overly emotional at times
(judgement call, though), doesn't forgive easily, has a vast capacity for
denial, tends to be self-centered when her friends are clearly asking her
for some empathy, has a certain capacity for blind panic that even the SG
didn't exhibit, et cetera, ad infinitum. Part of this (I posit) may come
from her assurance that she must suffer the burden of Slayerhood, thus can
get away with a certain antisocial behaviour. Part comes (again, I posit)
from the fact that she has clearly matured far beyond most people in many
ways -- the constant facing of the death and saving of the world will do
that to you -- but perhaps at the expense of other areas that us mere humans
must develop. And she even recognizes some of her flaws. She understands
that she will never be Willow's intellectual equal. She knows that her
mother, and even Giles, were/are far more emotionally stable. She realizes
she was too blind to see that Spike's behaviour was moving toward the
direction of ameliorating some her entirely-justified treatment of him. She
even realizes that Xander may have some wisdom to offer (such as during and
after Riley issues.) She is clearly on the ropes by the end of the season
and admits it, as painful though it might be. She doesn't merely admit Glory
is too powerful, she admits, implicitly, that she might actually be weak in
a sense. So her final sacrifice -- which, mind you, she didn't go to happily
-- cannot be judged in a vacuum. She went quickly...but Dawn moved every bit
as quickly. Anya threw herself in the path of a load of bricks. Tara
sacrificed her sanity -- from my perspective, almost worse than dying. Spike
would have died to save either Dawn or Buffy (geez, the Hellbitch tortured
him near to the point of, well, dust, and he just taunted her.) None of them
even (as far as we can tell) contemplated doing anything else. Buffy did
what was in her nature.

Buffy, too good? I suspect that, if I had never watched the show and were
somehow drawn into TV-land and met her, I'd find her the slightest bit
difficult to take in some ways. Which isn't to say that, after 5 years (4
1/2, actually), I am not extremely fond of the character.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Buffy's Perfection (long) -- change, 16:56:01 05/25/01 Fri

You make some interesting points.

> But what has troubled (not so much troubled, really, as interested) me in
later days has been the escalation of
> certain flaws, particularly those associated with the Slayer. Her
immediate reaction to virtually anything is a
> threat of violence...from "Please don't be suggesting what I'd have to
kill you for suggesting" (Intervention)
> to "Look at her like that again and she'll be the last thing you ever see"
(Spiral). And numerous others over the
> years.

I hadn't really thought of her as threatenning violence all the time. I
suppose you could draw that conclusion. At least some of her threats are
meant as jokes though (in Intervention for example). However, the idea of
her Slayer aspect taking over her personality is interesting though. It
would tie in nicely with Buffy vs Dracula.

As far as her being willful and arrogant, I think that comes from having to
assume the leadership role in the group. From my point of view, I think that
Giles should really be the leader of the SG. This is what the CoW trained
him to, and he has more years of life experience than any of them. He is
just too weak a leader to do it and so Buffy has had to step in. To me,
Buffy's willfulness and arrogance are a natural consequence of this. As
Maggie Walsh said, Buffy is lacking a strong father figure.

> she has clearly matured far beyond most people in many ways

This is one of my big problems with the way Buffy is written. She is too
mature. I know that being the Slayer has forced her to grow up fast, but she
is still only 20 years old. I just don't feel that she acts like any 20 year
old girl that I know.

> So her final sacrifice -- which, mind you, she didn't go to happily --
cannot be judged in a vacuum.

This is my other big problem with Buffy. I think she did go happily to her
sacrifice. I rewatched that scene. She looks like she is in a state of bliss
when she jumps off the tower and into the portal. When she talks to Dawn
just before she jumps, she sounds calm and at peace, not like a scared
twenty year old about to die. I know that part of the point of the scene is
that Buffy has learned to accept her role as the slayer and the need to do
her work (which in this case involves committing suicide), I just think she
is just too accepting of it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's Perfection (long) -- Solitude1056, 17:41:33 05/25/01
Fri

I interpreted the look on Buffy's face (just before she jumped) as the joy
of someone who'd finally found a purpose again, after feeling like she was
in "the dark night of the soul" and had lost any sense of purpose. Whatever
else Buffy's flaws, she's always been a character who needs something to do
- even if that doing is usually of a violent type - and she needs a reason
to do it. Between everything else this season, she'd lost any internal
understanding of why she was fighting what seemed to her to be losing
battles, that she couldn't win. This was one choice she could actively
choose, and thus still win, somehow. Not a perfect win, but no tragedy is.
Her insistence on "doing" is a flaw, but it seems to me that if Buffy had
let her sister jump, then Buffy would've felt herself a failure, because
it's her role to be the one "to do." Standing by and watching someone else
"do" is no more and no less than what she experienced with her mother's
illness and death. Buffy's still a hero in my book, but she's also one with
flaws, and that just makes the tragedy of the forced choice all the more
powerful.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's Perfection (long) -- LoriAnn, 06:38:44 05/27/01
Sun

Earlier in the ep Buffy told Giles that she knew exactly what she had to do
when she stabbed Angel to save the world, but she didn't know what to do
anymore. Her "joy" was absolute certitude that she both knew what the right
thing to do was and that she was doing it. She says as much.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Buffy's Perfection (long) -- change, 16:30:37 05/25/01 Fri

I disagree with you as to what constitutes a flaw. I don't think it is a
flaw to lose a fight to someone who is an order of magnitude stronger than
you are. I also think that shutting down emotionally for a while after a
loved one dies is a natural thing to do. Buffy never lost any of her belief
in the need to fight evil. She just didn't see how she could win this
particular battle against an opponent as powerful as Glory.

And when Buffy said she didn't have the same certainty she did when she
sacrificed Angel, I think she was talking about sacrificing Dawn. I wouldn't
want her to be ready to do that, and, as it turned out, she didn't.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Buffy's Perfection ? -- Sue, 18:07:25 05/25/01 Fri

"The problem with this is that it makes her character less realistic. Real
people are not perfect, they are not either all good or all bad. "

Buffy wasn't perfect, but that said, there are people out there who are more
good than the average person. I have been fortunate to meet some of them.

So therefore, I do not believe Buffy being good makes her character less
realistic, for there are real people out there like that.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Buffy's Perfection (long) -- Maladanza, 22:26:58 05/25/01 Fri

"Consider Buffy's sacrifice. I don't have a problem with the idea of Buffy
sacrificing herself to save her sister. I think that is something that most
people would do. However, it would be hard. People don't want to die, even
to save their loved ones. People are afraid of death. However, this is not
how the new Buffy felt. As soon as she realized she could save Dawn by
committing suicide, she immediately did it. She had no indecision, and no
fear. It appeared to me that she almost smiling when she jumped. Again,
sacrificing yourself to save a loved one is something I agree with. My
problem is with Buffy's lack of human fear and uncertainty. She is becoming
too heroic."

I had a problem with Dawn's willingness to sacrifice herself. Look back over
Glory's speech to Dawn:

GLORY(to Dawn): Oh, no, sweetie baby, I'm talking about the ritual. 'Cause
you know, I bleed you, the portals open, but once you die, they close. The
faster you die, the better for your sorry species. I'm bettin' Buffy knows
that. And since you're not really her sister--
-- I'm guessing she isn't gonna show. And if she does... it might not be to
save you.

Dawn should have been worried when Buffy found out she was bleeding -- I
would have liked to have seen Dawn recoil in terror at her sister's
approach, as if Buffy were a monster to be feared.

But for Buffy to sacrifice herself for her sister does not require me to
strain my imagination. She is not Prophecy Girl any longer, she's a hero.
Buffy had decide before they ever reached the sacrifice spot that she would
either save Dawn or let the world end -- and she had had a presentiment that
she would lose against Glory. The Deathwish realized gave her an inner peace
-- whatever happened, she was prepared.

Why was Buffy ready to destroy the world (by her inaction and by her actions
-- she told her friends she would kill any of them who approached Dawn)? My
feeling is that Buffy has a quarrel with God. She has sacrificed and
sacrificed for the good of humanity, fighting against the legions of
darkness in nearly hopeless battles, but no matter how much she gives, TPTB
want more. So Buffy rails against God -- she sacrificed Angel, that was
enough, they cannot have Dawn, too. And a just God would not demand any more
from her -- and if God is unjust, what is she fighting for? why not let the
universe end? But she has an epiphany at the last minute -- and realizes
that there is another way out. Why shouldn't she have looked peceful? She
had already come to terms with sacrificing herself and all of creation
rather than sacrifice her sister.

I see Buffy as more of a Jonah character than a Christ figure (the second
half of Jonah's story was always more intriguing to me).

At first, I disliked Buffy being killed off when the writers will just bring
her back, but I think what has been missing from Buffy is the spiritual
element. It always seemed a bit unlikely to me that people who deal with
evil on a daily basis (and use crosses and holy water to repel vampires)
never set foot in a church/temple/whatever. I understand that there are
pragmatic reasons for avoiding faith (pick a religion and you alienate all
the others; plus, it's cool to be agnostic) and I wouldn't want to see
Buffy/7th Heaven crossovers, but I do think that the the writers will
explore this area next season (they'll almost have to -- if they bring Buffy
back). We'll have a better idea of what the afterlife is like in the
Buffyverse -- will it be the vaccuum experienced by Darla (or not
experienced, I guess) or will Gunn's traditional view of Christianity be
closer to the truth (Gunn (to Wesley): We die horribly and painfully, you go
to hell and I spend eternity in the arms of Baby Jesus)?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Buffy's Perfection (long) -- change, 05:03:28 05/26/01 Sat

> I had a problem with Dawn's willingness to sacrifice herself. Look back
over Glory's speech to Dawn:
> Dawn should have been worried when Buffy found out she was bleeding -- I
would have liked to have seen Dawn recoil
> in terror at her sister's approach, as if Buffy were a monster to be
feared.

Actually, I didn't have a problem with Dawn being ready to sacrifice
herself. It is consistent with the story so far. Dawn has been been feeling
guilty for Glory's attacks on the SG. Sacrificing herself would be a way to
atone for them. She has also known that she would be used bring an
apocalypse and would feel some responsibility for that. Then Glory told her
that the portal would close as soon as she died. The thing is, Dawn had time
to process all of this and to decide to sacrifice herself. Buffy, on the
other hand, didn't realize that she could close the portal until 10 second
before she did. That's the difference between Dawn's willingless to
sacrifice herself and Buffy's. Dawn felt responsible and guilty for the
apocalypse and had time to come to terms with the idea of sacrificing
herself to stop it. Buffy, on the other hand, wasn't responsible for it,
shouldn't have felt guilt for it, and never had time to really come to terms
with the idea of sacrificing herself to stop it. Note that when I say
sacrifice, I mean committing suicide to stop it, not being willing to fight
to the death to stop it. Buffy definitely planned to fight to the death to
stop Glory, but that is a different thing than committing suicide, and IMO,
requires a different thought process.

> I wouldn't want to see Buffy/7th Heaven crossovers

Neither would I.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Buffy's Perfection -- Maladanza, 13:00:54 05/26/01 Sat

"Actually, I didn't have a problem with Dawn being ready to sacrifice
herself. It is consistent with the story so far. Dawn has been feeling
guilty for Glory's attacks on the SG. Sacrificing herself would be a way to
atone for them. She has also known that she would be used bring an
apocalypse and would feel some responsibility for that. Then Glory told her
that the portal would close as soon as she died. The thing is, Dawn had time
to process all of this and to decide to sacrifice herself."

I think Dawn spent the few hours before the ritual hoping and praying that
Buffy would show up rather than contemplating self-sacrifice. When Glory
came for Dawn, to have her carried to the tower, Dawn screamed for Buffy,
and again, while the fighting was going on, she called out Buffy's name.
This suggests to me that Dawn had not come to terms with her impending death
and that she was clinging to life as desperately as she could. Furthermore,
Dawn is a creature with a moral compass -- humans have a soul that
predisposes the towards good, demons have something similar that predisposes
them towards evil, but a soulless creature like Dawn (unless the monks also
manufactured a soul for her) has only her experiences to guide her. At 14,
with only the last six months being real, that is not much to go by. I doubt
there are many 14 year olds whose thought processes are sophisticated enough
to contemplate sacrificing themselves for the sake of humanity while chained
to a tower and awaiting death.

"Buffy, on the other hand, didn't realize that she could close the portal
until 10 second before she did. That's the difference between Dawn's
willingness to sacrifice herself and Buffy's. Dawn felt responsible and
guilty for the apocalypse and had time to come to terms with the idea of
sacrificing herself to stop it. Buffy, on the other hand, wasn't responsible
for it, shouldn't have felt guilt for it, and never had time to really come
to terms with the idea of sacrificing herself to stop it. Note that when I
say sacrifice, I mean committing suicide to stop it, not being willing to
fight to the death to stop it. Buffy definitely planned to fight to the
death to stop Glory, but that is a different thing than committing suicide,
and IMO, requires a different thought process."

Buffy believe in WotW that she was responsible, that she had failed, that
she had, in effect, killed her sister. She shouldn't have felt guilty, but
she has a history of blaming herself for events beyond her control. Now
consider Buffy's final battle with Glory: Glory was beaten long before Buffy
stopped swinging the hammer. Buffy's mission was to stop the sacrifice, not
to "fight Glory to the death," and not to engage in witty banter after Glory
had fallen. How late was she in saving Dawn? 30 seconds? Do you think it
would not have crossed her mind at that moment that she could have stopped
the ritual if only she had been just a little bit faster?

I think Buffy had spent considerably longer than 10 seconds coming to terms
with sacrifice -- she was willing to sacrifice her friends, herself and the
world. By contrast, I think Dawn had about 30 seconds -- she was expecting
to be rescued at least until Doc pulled out a knife, and probably until he
cut into her flesh (although 30 seconds is probably enough time make a rash
decision -- thinking too long might have weakened her resolve).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's Perfection -- Rufus, 16:07:56 05/26/01 Sat

You made an assumption that Dawn was a souless creature....we don't know
that. We also know from what Joss has said recently that the soul is a
direction the souled are predisposed to travelling in, not a guarantee they
will head in the right direction. Dawn seemes to have a moral compass
pointed in the same direction of her sister...no surprise if Dawn is in fact
created from part of Buffy. When she could see that the portal was beginning
to open, Dawn instinctively went to do what she thought her sister would,
save the world. This is why I continue to say that the monks were so smart.
They also said that Dawn is now human, so I assume that she has a soul. If
the bad guys can recreate Darla complete with a soul, then why can't the
guys working for the forces of good construct a human, using human DNA,
complete with a soul? Dawn didn't think she just moved to close the portal.
I think the monks made her out of the best stuff in making her part of
Buffy, giving humanity the best chance against Glory.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's Perfection -- Malandanza, 11:01:05 05/27/01 Sun

I've been having some technical difficulties trying to post this response,
so forgive me if it is a duplicate post.

"You made an assumption that Dawn was a soulless creature....we don't know
that. We also know from what Joss has said recently that the soul is a
direction the souled are predisposed to traveling in, not a guarantee they
will head in the right direction. Dawn seems to have a moral compass pointed
in the same direction of her sister...no surprise if Dawn is in fact created
from part of Buffy. When she could see that the portal was beginning to
open, Dawn instinctively went to do what she thought her sister would, save
the world. This is why I continue to say that the monks were so smart. They
also said that Dawn is now human, so I assume that she has a soul. If the
bad guys can recreate Darla complete with a soul, then why can't the guys
working for the forces of good construct a human, using human DNA, complete
with a soul? Dawn didn't think she just moved to close the portal. I think
the monks made her out of the best stuff in making her part of Buffy, giving
humanity the best chance against Glory."

I meant to say the Dawn lacks a moral compass rather than she has a moral
compass -- fortunately both you and change figured that out :)

I have more of problem with the monks being able to create out of nothing a
soul for Dawn than a material body. I don't believe that W&H created a soul
for Darla -- I think they restored her former soul (although I have nagging
doubts about exactly what the spell entailed -- particularly, if they
restored her human body with her human soul, why did she have her vampire
memories?) If Dawn is a soulless being, she is more likely to do good than
demons and vampires who are predisposed towards evil. If a soul is a
consequence of being human, and develops over time, Dawn has not been around
long enough to have developed much of a soul.

You said "the monks made her out of the best stuff in making her part of
Buffy." How about this for an odd theory: the monks took a slice of Buffy's
soul to animate Dawn when they created her. Thus, Dawn is more a part of
Buffy than would be a creature of mere flesh and bone. And, perhaps, Buffy's
flirtation with darkness this season is not a result of the direct influence
of the First Slayer, but of a weakening of her own moral compass as a result
of the monk's interference.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's Perfection -- change, 17:17:29 05/26/01 Sat

> Furthermore, Dawn is a creature with a moral compass -- humans have a soul
that predisposes the towards good,
> demons have something similar that predisposes them towards evil, but a
soulless creature like Dawn (unless the
> monks also manufactured a soul for her) has only her experiences to guide
her. At 14, with only the last six
> months being real, that is not much to go by. I doubt there are many 14
year olds whose thought processes are
> sophisticated enough to contemplate sacrificing themselves for the sake of
humanity while chained to a
> tower and awaiting death.

I don't know of any reason to assume that Dawn does not have a soul. The
Monks said that she is human. To me, that implies that she has a soul.

I think that teenagers tend to be more idealistic than older people. They
don't have as much life experience to understand pain. They tend to think of
themselves as invulnerable. I think a 14 year old could contemplate
sacrificing themselve to save the world, especially if they had time to come
to terms with it.

> Buffy believe in WotW that she was responsible, that she had failed, that
she had, in effect, killed her sister. She
> shouldn't have felt guilty, but she has a history of blaming herself for
events beyond her control. Now consider
> Buffy's final battle with Glory: Glory was beaten long before Buffy
stopped swinging the hammer. Buffy's mission
> was to stop the sacrifice, not to "fight Glory to the death," and not to
engage in witty banter after Glory had
> fallen. How late was she in saving Dawn? 30 seconds? Do you think it would
not have crossed her mind at that moment
> that she could have stopped the ritual if only she had been just a little
bit faster?

I think one of Glory's powers was nearly instantanious healing. In previous
fights, whenever Glory was hurt or slowed down, she recovered within a few
minutes or seconds. In the Gift, after Willow zapped her, Glory said whe'd
be back to full strength in a few seconds. I think Buffy had no choice but
to keep pounding Glory continuously until she killed her. If she had stopped
for a few minutes to save Dawn, Glory would have recovered. I think the only
reason she stopped was because Glory morphed into Ben and she couldn't kill
Ben because she was human. Given that, I don't think Buffy would have felt
guilty about continuing the fight with Glory.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Buffy's Perfection (long) -- LoriAnn, 07:12:54 05/27/01 Sun

One, regarding your idea that she "never had time to really come to terms
with the idea of sacrificing herself," thought is instantaneous; more than
that, we visually went over the thought process in seconds, and these were
not new concepts to Buffy because she has been sacrificing herself, one way
or another, for five years.

Two, there is a distinction between suicide and sacrifice; it is one of
intent. Buffy didn't commit suicide; she closed the gate that the blood of
the key had unlocked. Her death was a byproduct of saving the world. This is
a distinction that moralists make.

Although Buffy does have some flaws; she works toward overcoming them. We
don't need heroes who reflect what we are because we have plenty of what we
are already. We need heroes who show us what we could be, what we can be,
heroes who hold up a light rather than a mirror. Glory is a mirror of the
venality of human beings: whatever I do is alright because that's the way I
am. Buffy is a light that shows we can be more than that.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Buffy's Perfection (long) -- Sue, 09:44:49 05/26/01 Sat

"I had a problem with Dawn's willingness to sacrifice herself. "

I had no problem with that. I think most of us would do the same in such a
situation.


Reflections on the Gift (Long, no really) -- fresne, 10:05:55 05/25/01 Fri

Needless
To
Say
There
Are
Spoilers

There are about a dozen threads I could tie this post into, but that would
require a slicing and dicing of my thoughts and it takes me too long to
organize them in the first place...

You know before I say anything, I really have to mention how much I have
enjoyed this season. Sure there were things I would have changed, but
overall this has been an incredibly thematically coherent season and once
again I am awed at just how much events evolve over the course of a season.
We never end where we began.

There have been some powerful episodes this season. And as OnM, suggested in
an earlier thread, "...you could form a trilogy of *Fool for Love*, *The
Body/Forever* and *The Gift*, and if you think about it, they essentially
tell the whole story of the season." And they do in a wonderful progression.

In Fool for Love, Spike tells Buffy that the other slayers died because they
had a death wish. Because they wanted it. They grew weary. They lost their
ties to the world. And in that split moment, they let go and Spike slipped
in. (And as I write that line, I have to say, am I blind that I didn't
notice that Spike was talking about sex, the little death, as much as death
in that scene. That final gasp. That look of peace. Hmmm...but I digress.)
Each of their deaths was a defeat. In all of the Watcher books that Buffy
reads, the Slayer's final moment was unrecorded. Lost. A defeat. One
imagines that perhaps the Watchers didn't record those moments because the
force that killed the Slayer killed everyone else too.

And then we have the Body/Forever. Ties are broken. Grief and worry weigh
the Slayer down. Sisters bond in a moment of common grief.

And then and then. The Gift. Buffy's gift. Death. She can give her death.
Interestingly Buffy's death is both an example of and a total reversal of
the Slayer Death wish. (All hail the evil genius Joss) Buffy is weary in The
Gift. The Appocolyses just keep coming. She has lost her way. She has lost
clarity in her calling.
And because she is in a crisis of faith, because she can no longer trust
logic, which dryly dictates Dawn must die, she clings to instinct. Defend
her sister, her child, someone worth fighting for.

She draws her line in the sand and says enough is enough. No more
compromises or emotional sacrifices. She's been down that road. Not again.
That's why the episode resonates so much with Becoming. It's the same point
on the circle, just at a different point in the gyre.

And then standing above the world, she has her epiphany. Buffy thinks
outside the box. Its not Dawn dies or the world ends. Pick option C. Don't
hold back. Give. She finally regains, or perhaps gains for the first time
that sense of clarity about who she is and what she must do. "But this is
the work I have to do. Tell Giles I... I figured it out. And I'm okay."

Buffy dies not because she's let go or can't go on, but because thought and
instinct have become one. She figures it out. Buffy dies because of, not due
to a lack of, ties to the world, to Dawn. Because Buffy is full of love.

Which is why for me, Buffy's death is a sort of victory, not a defeat. Glory
does not achieve her objective. Buffy won that fight. Buffy achieved her
objective. Dawn's life is saved. If Buffy has to die to achieve her goals,
(Because to paraphrase Wesley, if you try and save everyone, you end up
saving no one.) then that is an action that she freely makes. She leaps into
the air to fall into the light as the sun rises.

Contrast that to Ben's death. Unwilling to act on another's behalf, he lies
broken in the dirt, in shadow, unable to move, his breath stopped. Because
if blood is life, so is breath. That's why names have power. Spoken vows
have significance. Now I don't think that Ben was a tarred black villain. He
just made certain choices, which had consequences. That's life. That's
death.

Two people lying broken on the ground. Blood/Breath. Light/Dark.
Female/Male. Both reluctant siblings to someone, something, not related to
them. Both making choices that result in their death.

Ben chooses to live at the expense of Dawn's life. Buffy chooses to die for
Dawn.

Flesh of her flesh. Blood of her blood. How incredibly Eucharistic.

It was impossible for me to watch Buffy's sacrificial fall, without thinking
of Cú Chulainn tied to his tree, or the Mayan maid falling into the well, or
(since these things should always be a triptych) Christ on his cross.

I really don't want to push the Christ thing too much, however...Christian
symbolism is so engrained in Western Culture that you cannot have a
character sacrifice their life for the good of another without evoking an
echo of Christ. How much more so in a show where characters wield Crosses as
weapons. Keep in mind that that was a choice on Joss' part. Ann Rice skipped
it. Heck Stoker has Vampires wandering around in daylight. The Vampyric
canon is nothing if not flexible.

After I saw Buffy's sacrifice, I thought of Anya's ill omened bunny rabbit.
A bad omen for Anya. The world will end. Someone will die. Given that I
associate rabbits with Easter, I found it a hopeful omen. Buffy sacrificed
herself. She died. But it is a death associated with promise. Rebirth. Hope.
Love.

All of which is why I wouldn't have a problem if Buffy came back. She died
because that was what she had to do. Where she had to go now. Consider again
her words before she jumps.

Actually what I would like to see for the season opener would be a spiritual
journey for Buffy in the (a?) realm of the dead. Perhaps have the current
Buffy walk through earlier scenes from the series (we have the technology).
That way new viewers could be introduced to the show thus far and yet scenes
could serve an overall thematic purpose. Perhaps have characters serve as
spirit guides. It need not be static. The Underworld has its threats too.
(Have I mentioned that I'm fascinated by stories of the Underworld? Cases in
point http://pw1.netcom.com/~fresne/waiting.html and
http://pw1.netcom.com/~fresne/anticipation.html)

And yet unlike the Christ sacrifice, a life for a whole world, Buffy died
really for one individual. Yes, she saved the world, but to my mind she
jumped to save Dawn.

Actually, the entire episode was about individual connections and sacrifice.
Anya cared if Xander or herself survived. Secondarily the others. She pushed
Xander out of the way of the falling bricks and could have died.

Willow tells Buffy that she has been concentrating on spells to help Tara,
which may secondarily help defeat Glory.

Spike cheerily expected to die helping Buffy and promised to protect Dawn
until the end of the world. Interesting, that Spike made the same climb as
Buffy up the Leaning Tower of Babel. He made the same fall as Buffy, but he
fails where she succeeds.

Giles...hmmm...well hmmm. Giles is stuck with the world view. Telling Buffy that
she must sacrifice Dawn to save the world, again. Saving the world at the
cost of personal honor. Polishing his glasses before quietly doing what must
be done. Of course, since he knows that Buffy would be the first to die when
Glory recovers herself, perhaps that is a personal sacrifice for an
individual as well.

And while Buffy's un-pep talk before the final battle isn't exactly the St.
Crispin's day speech,

"We few... we happy few, we band of brothers - for he who sheds his blood
with me today shall be my brother, be he ne'er so vile this day will gentle
his condition." Henry V.

Spike and Giles cannot mention it (humorously riffing on it) without
bringing into play a resonance that fighting beside someone, making the
personal sacrifices transforms people into brothers. Into sisters. Into
family. In the appropriately named Blood Ties, Buffy held her bleeding hand
to Dawn's hand and they mixed blood.

In the Gift, Buffy redeemed the promise inherent in that action.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Reflections on the Gift (Long, no really) -- rowan, 13:44:35 05/25/01
Fri

"And in that split moment, they let go and Spike slipped in. (And as I write
that line, I have to say, am I blind that I didn't notice that Spike was
talking about sex, the little death, as much as death in that scene. That
final gasp. That look of peace. Hmmm...but I digress.)"

Whenever someone tells me that Buffy is not attracted to Spike, I always
point to FFL for precisely this reason. Not only was Spike the master of his
domain (no, no, I didn't mean to get Seinfeldian)....I mean not only is
Spike the master of double meaning, but Buffy also responds to it. It's a
very sexual episode IMHO.

"Actually, the entire episode was about individual connections and
sacrifice. Anya cared if Xander or herself survived. Secondarily the others.
She pushed Xander out of the way of the falling bricks and could have died.
"

Yes, it was a huge ep for Anya. I for once really felt that she loved
Xander. And her sacrifice of pushing him out of the way and letting the
debris fall on her answered all of Willow's questions about whether Anya
would "hurt" Xander in the end (at least for me).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Reflections on the Gift (Long, no really) -- Solitude1056,
16:32:43 05/25/01 Fri

Yes, it was a huge ep for Anya. I for once really felt that she loved
Xander. And her sacrifice of pushing him out of the way and letting the
debris fall on her answered all of Willow's questions about whether Anya
would "hurt" Xander in the end (at least for me).

I felt this was answered, for me, back in Triangle. To quote:

OLAF
CHOOSE! ANYANKA OR THE WITCH! ONE OF YOUR WOMEN MUST DIE!

Xander looks at Willow and Anya. They look back at him. There is a
beat where it looks like he will have to choose.

XANDER
No! You are one crazy troll! I'm not choosing between my
girlfriend and my best friend! That's insane troll-logic!

ANYA
Go Xander! I love you!

Olaf laughs jovially.

OLAF
HA HA! GOOD FOR YOU! YOU ARE A LOYAL MAN!

Olaf takes Xander's arm and cheerfully snaps Xander's wrist.
Xander gasps in pain. Willow and Anya blanch.

WILLOW
Xander!

OLAF
NOW CHOOSE!

ANYA
Olaf! No!

XANDER
(through his pain)
I won't choose!

OLAF
THEN YOU SHALL BE THE ONE TO DIE!

Olaf moves in close to Xander, his hammer raised for the killing
blow.

ANYA
Choose me! Choose me to die!
Just don't take him!

Olaf and Xander both pause and look to Anya.

ANYA
Don't take Xander!

Anya may have flaws but she's made it clear through word 'n deed that she
loves Xander. Each Scooby's got a heroic side... it's just that we've always
gotten to see Buffy's in big flashy moments. The rest of the heroics are in
sudden pops!, moments that flash by without too much notice, but they're
there.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Reflections on the Gift (Long, no really) -- rowan, 18:08:27
05/25/01 Fri

Actually, I had forgotten about that. Thanks for reminding me. So that's
twice this season that Anya tried to sacrifice herself for Xander. Because
Anya's diction is so stilted, I think that's one of the things that makes it
difficult for me to sense the emotion behinds her words.

I do love Anya though. She cracks me up. The bunnies. Wow. I'd love to see
an all bunny episode. Maybe related to wedding preparations. What happens if
she gets pregnant? There will have to be a "no stuffed bunny rule."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Metaphor for pregnancy = "the rabbit died" ... would Anya think
it an omen? hm! (n/t) -- Shiver, 18:35:58 05/25/01 Fri

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Bunny factor -- Rufus, 18:46:51 05/25/01 Fri

Anya has always found bunnies so frightening. I did wonder what would happen
if she were to become pregnant. At first babies were tiny pink things to
give away for money in the game of Life. Then after Joyce died she got the
connection between babies and the continuation of life. I thought with the
badly timed sex they had and the fact she found that bunny, anything could
happen now.
Anya has been very clear about how she felt about Xander and she proved
herself in Triangle then again in The Gift. Buffy may be the showy hero but
the others experience triumph in other ways more closely linked to their
private lives.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Reflections on the Gift (Long, no really) -- gingerbob,
03:21:10 05/27/01 Sun

"Each Scooby's got a heroic side... it's just that we've always gotten to
see Buffy's in big flashy moments. The rest of the heroics are in sudden
pops!, moments that flash by without too much notice, but they're there."

Buffy is "The Slayer"- though she is human, she is also a 'superhero', with
all the privileges and baggage that accompanies that. The rest are just
people. I include Spike, most human of vampires. In other words, Buffy is
"the chosen one", while the others (except possibly Giles) have come to the
gang of their own free will. All have their talents or special abilities,
and all have their weaknesses.

To quote Spike, "I'm not Good, and I'm OK." We all rise above ourselves, or
our own estimation of ourselves, from time to time. Perhaps that's what
heroism is all about.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Reflections on the Gift Spoilers for the Season. -- Age, 19:44:32
05/25/01 Fri

Spoilers obviously for 'The Gift' and for other episodes of season five.

How can you turn defeat into triumph? How can you make what you can't
change, like mortality, into something that is yours?

Coming up to the season finale I wondered how Buffy would defeat Glory
because besides representing Buffy's attachment to predatory power, for most
of the season she's been the symbol of what Buffy can't defeat or slay, like
death. If you can't defeat Glory or slay her, then you have to fuse with her
in some way, make her your own. Whedon has Buffy do this by getting her to
subdue Glory without killing her, ie symbolically overcoming her attachment
to predatory power, and then when Giles kills Ben, the invincibility aspect
of Glory gets symbolically transferred to the portal that opens up(Buffy has
failed to stop what Glory wanted, her invincibility has been transformed
into inevitability.)Buffy then 'fuses' with this symbolic aspect by taking
the journey Glory should have. In not stopping the portal from opening Buffy
didn't defeat Glory; to close it again she had to take Glory's place,
becoming one and making her own that which she could not slay or defeat:
death.

The 'fusion' is not the same as the one Ben does with Glory; Ben acquiesces
to Glory, becoming one of the herd that would kill another to have his life
and so much more. The 'fusion', the accepting of that which cannot be
changed, is done on Buffy's terms, not on Glory's. She makes the inevitable
her own. Between the time she learned about how the other slayers
died(equating death with failure) Joyce died, deconstructing that myth.
Death is just death and something that comes to us all. It is not failure,
it is a part of life we cannot change. But, it's our part of life that
cannot be changed, it is part of our journey, and we can make it what we
want. When Spike kills the other slayers he takes that from them, or perhaps
the other slayers give up their deaths to him?

So, I think you are right when Buffy's death turns the death wish of the
other slayers on its head. She turns something that has been seen as
negative into something positive by embracing that aspect of her life as her
own. As you point out, Buffy's death comes from her love and ties to the
world. She gets a gift by being able to die as an expression of that love
and those ties.

Your study of Ben and Buffy crystallized the following for me. You point out
the differences in their choices and their deaths. You highlight the
antithetical parallel between the two. Ben's death is like the death of the
other slayers, taken from him by Giles, a failure, and is meant to contrast
with Buffy's. Ben doesn't want to die; his refusal to accept the inevitable
and make it his own is one of the choices he makes. As pointed out, he dies
anyway. I think that's the point Whedon was making, and certainly was making
with Joyce's death. We die anyway, so let's live as human beings while we
are alive.(Vampires 'mix' death with life and lose their human 'souls', ie
they become humanoid animals of a sort. Unable to face change and
responsibility they stay as perpetual teenagers and, like parasites, live
off those who remain human. Vampires do not live because they will not face
dying. They attempt to have others do their living and dying for them. They
want to be the exception to the natural law, but they are in a natural world
and so to maintain their strength they must take from the living, ie they
must be predators. Perhaps even Spike's killing of the other slayers is a
form of predation, taking from them even their deaths?)

As you point out the symbolism of the bunny points to renewal and of course
resurrection. Dawn as Buffy's human identity was anointed by the minions. If
you notice, buddhist images and unicorns have been used at key moments in
this season: when Dawn discovers she's the key; when Buffy in that same
episode discusses Dawn; in Buffy's dream when she gets over her guilt; in
the Magic shop in the season finale. The unicorn is the animal that would
not go on the ark and perished according to legend. It refused to be part of
a herd: it represents the idea of not losing oneself for the sake of gaining
the world. It is obvious that Buffy acted in this way. The Buddhist imagery
perhaps points to the inevitability of change and to the idea that death and
life are simply aspects of our journey. And in the Christ(anointed one)
image there is a reiteration of these ideas together with the notion of
resurrection.

Age.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Choices -- Kerri, 09:34:34 05/26/01 Sat

Joyce had life taken from her.
People who are killed by vampires/demons have life taken from them.
Even the slayers had their lives taken from them(although they had a death
wish-in a way their lives were taken by their calling).

But Buffy changed that: She didn't have her life taken-she gave it.
The spirit guide told Buffy-love, give, forgive.
Buffy was able to take death-the inevitable-and make it her own. She was
able to take something she had no control over-her own mortality-and possess
it.
Buffy's life was not taken-she gave her life-thus giving her control over
her life and her death.

Buffy always felt she had no control over her life-in many ways it was
guided by destiny. Her calling, when she died in Prophesy Girl-being the
subject of a prophesy.

But now Buffy has control. She is able to give her life for the one thing
she cared for most in the world. Buffy chose to give her life for Dawn, for
love.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Choices -- Age, 11:57:05 05/26/01 Sat

Whedon presents two ways of embracing the aspect of ourselves which we can't
change and which usually we tend to want to forget: our mortality. On the
one hand there were the other slayers who embraced death as an escape from
life. This is the symbolic meaning behind Spike's having beaten them: just
as the other slayers used death as an escape from life, vampires do the
same(it's just that vampires represent death in life.) On the other hand,
there is Buffy who realizes that her mortality is hers, and embraces all of
herself, and uses it to express her love. It is this sense as human beings
of embracing all of what makes us human that Whedon may be pointing to, and
which includes death. We live and die each moment as individuals when we
breath in and out, and we live and die as members of the human race
everytime a new generation comes into being. Death is as much a part of who
we are as life is. If we shrink away from either, running away from death we
become herd animals willing to sacrifice the weak for our safety; if we
shrink away from life, we become predators, vampires who leech off others.
This is probably the reason for the buddhist and christian imagery and myths
I mentioned in other postings.

Buffy embraces every aspect of herself through her death, not as a death
wish, but as an expression of her love, as an expression of her humanity.
From that act comes the dawn of a new day, humanity continues. Buffy gives a
gift, but in doing so she gets a gift. It works both ways, and perhaps
expresses the idea of our interconnectedness.

Age.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Choices(Sorry, Spoilers In above posting and in this one.)
-- Age, 12:20:39 05/26/01 Sat

This is probably why Whedon had Spike go up the tower to save Dawn, but
failed. Spike represented love, but not humanity. He has not yet embraced
every aspect of himself; so, he could not have saved her. Also, of course,
Dawn represents Buffy's humanity.

Age.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Reflections on the Gift (Long, I guess) -- Anthony8, 19:05:39
05/26/01 Sat

I think those people who view the Buffy character as merely a comic
book-type superhero who fights supernatural villains will have a hard time
accepting any Buffy resurrection. Those of us who see the series as a modern
expression of The Hero Cycle, however, realize that her death and rebirth
are necessary for the cycle to reach completion. The cycle has been
described in-depth in a number of threads on this board.Joseph Cambell's
"The Hero With A Thousand Faces" that summarizes The Hero's Adventure:

I believe that the following excerpts from Joseph Campbell's "The Hero With
A Thousand Faces" give us a hint as to where JW might take us next year:

"The two worlds, the divine and the human, can be pictured only as distinct
from each other--different as life and death, as day and night. The hero
adventures out of the land we know into darkness; there he accomplishes his
adventure, or again is simply lost to us, imprisoned, or in danger; and his
return is described as a coming back out of that yonder zone.
Nevertheless--and here is a great key to the understanding of myth and
symbol--the two kingdoms are actually one. The realm of the gods is a
forgotten dimension of the world we know. And the exploration of that
dimension, either willingly or unwillingly, is the whole sense of the deed
of the hero. The values and distinctions that in normal life seem important
disappear with the terrifying assimilation of the self into what formerly
was only otherness. As in the stories of the cannibal ogresses, the
fearfulness of this loss of personal individuation can be the whole burden
of the transcendental experience for unqualified souls. But the hero-soul
goes boldly in--and discovers the hags converted into goddesses and the
dragons into the watchdogs of the gods."

"...This brings us to the final crisis of the round, to which the whole
miraculous excursion has been but a prelude--that, namely, of the
paradoxical, supremely difficult threshold-crossing of the hero's return
from the mystic realm into the land of common day. Whether rescued from
without, driven from within, or gently carried along by the guiding
divinities, he has yet to re-enter with his boon the long-forgotten
atmosphere where men who are fractions imagine themselves to be complete. He
has yet to confront society with his ego-shattering, life-redeeming elixir,
and take the return blow of reasonable queries, hard resentment, and good
people at a loss to comprehend."

Whew! You paint the picture. You connect the dots. If JW holds firm to the
cycle he's been following for th past 5 seasons, we have a lot to look
forward to.

A8

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> It's said, "as above, so below." -- Solitude1056, 21:30:40 05/26/01
Sat

And as I've always been taught, the hero cycle involves a circular path
through two halves - the here-world & the there-world, and the steps through
each are similar. refusal of call, refusal to return; finally listening to
call; assistance with calling, assistance to return; etc. As above, so
below, as inside, so outside. We're beginning the second half (I'd guess),
which means Joss has a lot to squish in if he's going to end the cycle in
another 44 episodes!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: It's said, "as above, so below." -- FanMan, 00:42:05 05/27/01
Sun

Sarah is awsome, but I really doubt she will continue the show beyond year
seven. If Joss is using some hero cycle formula he will either have to sqish
in parts or end with Buffy still alive and life goes on...

Maby some Messia thing or getting rid of all demons are other options.

If it is getting rid of the demons I think it will be Dawn not Buffy, though
Buffy would certainly do her part.

SuperSlayer from Primevel doing a soul union with the KEY? Wow now there is
a thought.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Reflections on the Gift (Long, no really) -- SingedCat, 05:31:05
05/27/01 Sun

Fresne, that was a grerat article. It tied alot of the episode together for
me-- well done!

Especially the part about her not wanting to compromise any more. She stands
by what she can and cannot do -- that Dawn must not die.

I maintain that Ben did not die because he was a bad person. He could have
fought Glory all the way for all Giles knew (And if he had he would have
caused her to miss her mark) But he was part Glory, and she part him. That
in the end explained both his choices-- and why Giles killed him.

I wonder if he'll seek absolution. Somehow I don't think so.


Qestions about Buffy popularity -- FanMan, 13:08:43 05/25/01 Fri

Is there any entertainment of any kind with as many web sites devoted to it
as Buffy/Angel?
Star Treck and Star Wars are much more popular than Buffy, however when I
entered them as keywords for searches I got less than fifty web sights each.

Buffysearch.com has 3325 sites listed currently and that is how I found this
site.

Oppinions on if Buffy will remain popular for decades like the Star Trek?
Think Buffy will have spinoff shows and become a mainstream hit show? Giles
show does not count if it will only be ten eps or so. I mean entire shows
with multiple seasons like Star Trek: The Next Generation, Deep Space Nine,
Voyager, New searies coming up, multiple movies, huge book
selection......and whatever the future holds for fans as long as it is a
moneymaker it will continue.

Any other views on demographics and popularity?
Very few shows are as impressive on multiple levels; I hope that even if
Buffy and Angel end at season 7&5 other directers will get insparation from
Joss and give us complex involved and not too cheesie plots.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Observations on Buffy popularity -- LoriAnn, 11:39:54 05/26/01 Sat

I certainly hope that Buffy will catch on with mainstream audiences for the
reason you mention: complex meaning on multiple levels. Yet, that is seldom
what the mainstream audience wants. Notice the posts here; although many,
maybe most, are well thought out and, whether I agree with them or not,
interesting, there are also many posts that boil down to Buffy Rules, Buffy
Sucks, not enough fights, or Joss didn't do what I wanted. That's the norm
on other posting sites, and judging from what I see in the realverse, for
most people, that is also the depth of analysis of everything: totally
subjective.
So to reiterate, the mainstream audience doesn't want depth and certainly
not objective truth or any kind of moral standard. If that's true, and I
hope it's not, but fear it is, Buffy will never have a mainstream audience
unless it becomes a straight action/comedy with little subtext or nuance.
By the standards of most TV networks, Buffy has never been a success.
Anywhere but some cable channels and the WB and UPN, Buffy would have been
cancelled a long time ago. ABC, NBC, and CBS often cancel good series with
audiences double or triple Buffy's because the shows don't take their time
slots. We've been fortunate that there are now smaller networks that settle
for a smaller niche audience because they have such a difficult time getting
the larger audience; this is true even of Fox. If it weren't for the niche
nets, Buffy might never have made it to the air, or if it had, would never
have made it past the first season.
Will Buffy be around for a long time? It will probably keep a cult following
for a long time.
We're very fortunate to have the opportunity to watch a program that is so
well written and well acted that also has some depth and thoughtfulness
about it as well as action, humor, and pathos.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Observations on Buffy popularity -- vampire hunter D, 12:57:52
05/26/01 Sat

You know, when Star Trek first cameout, it, like Buffy, wasn't poular with
mainstream audiences either. It too had deep subtexts to its plots, but only
appealed to a smaller niche audience (again, like Buffy), and suffered in
the ratings for it. But here we are, 35 years after NBC's first attempt to
cancell it, and it has become THE biggest Sci-Fi franchise of all time. Just
think about this when considering Buffy's long term poularity

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Bigger is certainly not always better -- OnM, 15:23:02 05/26/01 Sat

LoriAnn makes many good points, one of the best being:

*** "There are also many posts that boil down to Buffy Rules, Buffy Sucks,
not enough fights, or Joss didn't do what I wanted. That's the norm on other
posting sites, and judging from what I see in the realverse, for most
people, that is also the depth of analysis of everything: totally
subjective." ***

This will never change, for the simple reason that people have entirely
different wants and needs from their chosen entertainment. Many people
approach TV (or movies) the same way they approach a meal at a resturant--
if it's tasty, and reasonably priced, they ask no more. If the resturant has
polite staff, a nice ambiance and rarely gives you food poisoning, that's a
bonus, but it isn't a requirement.

There are also those at the other far end of the expectation spectrum, who
will only exclusively attend the very finest, most hoity-toity
ultra-expensive resturants because they are trying to show off how superior
they are to the rest of the proles. Each to their own, but sometimes all I
want is a decent hamburger, and I don't apologize for that.

Entertainment-wise, I try to be accepting of a wide variety of material, as
long as it is reasonably intelligent and meets my interests content-wise.
Some mind or eye or ear candy is just fine, as long as it isn't actively
trying to insult my intelligence. This is why I very much liked the original
Buffy movie, which I know that many persons do not. The usual reason given
for this is that the movie is NOT layered and metaphorical like our beloved
normal Jossverse is, so we put it down.

But the movie, IMO, is perfectly good for *what it was*, which was a
humorous, light-hearted romp. It's heart was in the right place, even if the
studio or whoever rained on Joss' parade and kept it from being better.

As for internet discussion forums, each board sorts out it's own kind of
residents, and fortunately cyberspace is vast and accepting, so you can
almost always find a home of kindred spirits somewhere.

Finally, as to vamp D's notes on the Trek franchise, it speaks for itself. I
enjoy most of the Trek stuff, certainly not as passionately as I do the
Buffyverse, but again, it's a pretty good hamburger. It certainly will be
around for a long, long time. I think in due course, BtVS and Angel will be
also, but I doubt they will ever be as widespread in the popular
consciousness as Trek. This is as it should be, they are different shows,
aimed at different viewers, even though there is some overlap. One isn't
inherently superior to the other, it depends on what you are looking for.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Bigger is certainly not always better -- FanMan, 17:41:49
05/26/01 Sat

Bigger is certainly not always better.....I remember reading an interview
with Joss where he said that if he had a huge budget he might get lazy; go
for special effects as the easy alternative to plot. Yaaaaah! I am glad he
does not have a huge budget!( funny in an ironic way...grin)

Regarding fiction books in the Buffy genra. When are there going to be some
that are set in the collage years of the show? I love the show, but the
books set in the high school years are targeted for teens more than
me....sigh.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Observations on Buffy popularity -- Anthony8, 18:09:36 05/26/01
Sat

Keep in mind, that the one Trek series (of the three,soon to be four, newer
series) that dealt with deeper themes, "Deep Space Nine," is regarded by the
majority of the die-hard Trek fans as the illegitimate member of the family.
It wasn't pure in their estimation because it had a dark edge (like real
life itself) that did not comport with the utopian view of the future they
believed the show's creator, Gene Roddenberry, had intended for the
franchise. Personally, "Deep Space Nine" is the only one of the spin-offs
that bears repeat viewing. Still, I couldn't see it inspiring the depth of
discussion we have here (on this board, at least). I'm not dissing the other
series--for me they are still high quality and thoughtful entertainment
compared with 99% of what's always been out there. BTVS, however, is in a
different league.

A8

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Observations on Buffy popularity -- FanMan, 18:25:22
05/26/01 Sat

Really if Buffy never becomes a mainstream hit is fine with me. I do hope
though that the current generation of near collage age people have at least
a few who get insparation from Joss, and become the next generation of
directors producers and writeters. Come on hollywood! Give us a little more
quality programs like Buffy instead of lame formulas.

OKAY that was a rant(grin)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Qestions about Buffy popularity -- cjc_36, 22:45:33 05/27/01 Sun

I tried posting on the Fandom buffy board this very topic: How big's this
Buffy thing gonna get?

With the mythology Joss has crafted, it can go on and on and on, like some
battery bunny Anya would no doubt be terrified of.

One could go back in time with Slayers-from-the-past anthologies, go forward
(like the comic Fray by Joss coming sometime soon), delve into more seeming
'volatons' of the current mythology-- One I'd like to see is this: some old
woman who was the one person allowed to give up Slayerness w/o dying.

Then there's the watchers, the Council and any antecedents. Why are they
there? Who was the first Watcher? Does watching over Slayers go back to
Rome? Ancient Egypt? China? Celtic tribes? Or further back, before written
records existed? How brutal were earlier methods? Did they actually kidnap
Slayers in waiting and subjugate them to harsh regimental training?

Anyway, I'm hoping for a long and lush existence for the universe of the
Slayer. Other series' involving a new Slayer, say, in 20 years-- I'm not
sure about that. But the concept can live on in movies and books and comics
forever.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Qestions about Buffy popularity -- Cleanthes, 15:31:26 05/29/01 Tue

I have lots of search engines in my search folder. Some do a good job of
tallying sites, and others have weird methods of scoring that make it
impossible to say anything.

On AltaVista , a search of the string "Star Trek" yielded 696,480 sites.
Searching the string "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" yielded 77,547. Searching
just "Buffy" I got 381,077 - but, of course, some of these sites won't have
anything to do with the TV show.

HotBot [http://hotbot.lycos.com/Default.asp] does a better job, IMO, of
giving exact results of for search strings. I think it measures web presence
for various actors pretty well, as long as their name is searchable. (eg.
"Madonna" is not searchable because her name and a name for the Blessed
Virgin will be lumped together).

Some results:
Sarah Michelle Gellar 91,100
Alyson Hannigan 11,900
Amy Acker 47 (Now's the time to be the first to put up an Amy Acker shrine
page - the field's wide open!)

Others for comparison =

Less popular than SMG:
Hillary Clinton 78,900
Adolf Hitler 63,800
Nicole Kidman 62,500

More popular than SMG:
Sandra Bullock 103,200
George W. Bush 289,000
Britney Spears 472,900
Jesus Christ 980,400


I figured it out! -- FanMan, 21:31:23 05/25/01 Fri

Although it will probably never be explained in the show, something has
puzzled me. Why are the Slayers only female? The simple and also true answer
is Joss wanted a show where the HERO is actually a HEROIN(sp?) This does not
provide any logical closure to why in so far as how the Buffyverse works. It
seems like if the fictional earth of the show has 5 to 6 billion people
there are some males with morals and love equal to Buffy.

The only option that I have been able to come up with is that slayers tap
into the power of a godess or perhaps the first slayer evolved into
something similar after her death: the spiritual journey like posts have
mentioned Buffy is on while she is dead.

I have come up with a simpler answer that does not require as much mind
stretching. Instinct of the female in regards to speicies survival is
different than males. The masculine solution to danger is primarily
offensive and leads to hostility. The female love and mothering instinct is
defensive and seeks the least violent resolution to a danger. Outright war
with the demons could happen if you had an agresive hostile male slayer who
became a leader of something like the Initiative. Only a female who
literally loves unconditionally becomes a Slayer. Love even your enemies and
kill them only if it is necisary for the survival of family/humanity.

Well I welcome clarification of what I am trying to say...

Ps. This fits with the message of the Guide: your love is blinding wich is
why you pull away from it. Love, give, forgive.

Buffy is flawed and she has shown anger and hostility. Never hate though. Do
you think her love is unconditional?
She would still love freinds/family in a more personal sense, I mean a
subconcious instictive careing about all life.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: I figured it out! -- FanMan, 22:44:15 05/25/01 Fri

I figured I might as well add: Buffy is better than us, Buffy's perfection,
and how Buffy is softer or gentler than Dawn as has been mentioned in
previous posts.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: I figured it out! -- John Burwood, 00:56:59 05/26/01 Sat

May I suggest a variation on the theme of why Slayers are always girls. If a
teenage boy acquired such strength and fighting prowess inmost primitive
societies, is it not more likely that they would early be talent-spotted as
potential warriors and heroes to wage wars and lead armies and may be even
become kings -most kings began as great war leaders. With such alternative
career options how many would be content to prowl the dark places hunting
for demons. A teenage girl with that strength would more likely be treated
as an outcast - there would be few societies in history who would easily
accept a girl as a war leader, and most girls would have been brought up as
achild to neither expect nor want to. The chances were, therefore, that
girls would be much less likely to be distracted from their holy mission. A
shrewd piece of thinking by the PTBs, perchance?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: I figured it out! -- Avatar 2001, 07:45:57 05/26/01 Sat

The female of the specie tends to be more dangerous than the male because
they possess a higher threshold of pain and stronger protective instincts.
Also they lack testosterone this male hormone increases the strength an
endurance of an individual but it has a draw back, in stress filled
conditions (like a fight or battle) it reduces mental capacity resulting in
a slower and more flawed decision making process (not what you want we a
split second can save or doom the world).

In a sane world men would ride sideways.

PS: I'm a guy but that's the truth.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: I figured it out! -- Diana Michelle, 18:55:32 05/26/01 Sat

When the Himalayan peasant meets the he-bear in his pride,
he will shout to scare the monster, who will often turn aside,
but the she-bear thus accosted will rend him tooth and nail.
The female of the species is more deadly than the male.
- Kipling

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: I figured it out! -- dy, 09:04:33 05/26/01 Sat

Buffy is a metaphor. The least can be (or become) the greatest. In our
society, who is considered more trivial than a teenage girl.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: -- darrenK, 11:13:03 05/26/01 Sat

Why women--really teenage girls-- are the only Slayers has very little to do
with science and biology (or some of the previous posters opinions on such.)

But, it does have everything to do with mythology and storytelling.

Most specifically, women are Slayers in Joss' stories as a way to subvert
the usual expectations for how a story about a warrior would work. It gives
him a lot of room to slice open (metaphorically speaking) our expectations
for teenage girls and create a web of social commentary on our own society's
gender roles.

It also allows for a lot of humor about shopping, dating, fashion, and
death.

If Slayers were big Hercules size men, it wouldn't be that interesting when
they fought other large Hercules type men. It would require a LOT less
imagination to see such a hero winning such a battle. Besides we can watch
this on the WWF.

Buffy's world has plenty of male warriors--Angel, Gunn, Riley, Giles, etc.
but I think that the post about women with power being outcasts and men with
power becoming Kings probably hit it right on the nose.

Just to add a little mythology before I hit the send button, it should be
noted that for the whole of human history, writers (in some cases Bards)
have subverted expectations in just the same manner.

This is the reason David is so small and Goliath is so big. Or that Achilles
was living among and dressing as a woman before being found by Ulysses. But
perhaps my favorite, and the one most applicable to this post is the story
of Athena. She is the war god, but so is Mars (a HE, which is why this story
is important). When Mars fights, he screws up everything, kills his allies,
cities burn. Mars' children are Pestilence and Damnation. Athena on the
other hand is the goddess of wisdom as well as war. Her battles are settled
judiciously, her followers prosper and live to fight another day.

Do any of you want to imagine the TV show Xander the Vampire Slayer? Neither
do I.

Done. dK

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re:I figured it out! -- FanMan, 17:29:32 05/26/01 Sat

Thank you for the replies.
As I originally posted the correct answer is that Joss chose to have a
female HERO. My speculation was in regards to the Buffyverse and the
simplest most logical reason. IE not requiring the phrase: it is the way
things are, or TPTB choose, both equivilant to realverse phrase of "it is
GOD's WILL"

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: -- Anthony8, 17:53:07 05/26/01 Sat

I would also propose that in the Buffyverse, the slayer's power pre-dates
the patriarchal religions that generated many of the male-as-hero legends
that we know very well today. After all, her power seems to exist as
counterbalance to those vestigial dark magicks and demonic hybrids that were
left here when the pure demonic powers, in Giles words, "lost their purchase
on this reality" and were forced to retreat into other dimensions to make
way for the mortal animals. We know, anthropologically, that the earliest
religions were centered around the power of the female to give life. Later,
that reverence for the Goddess and Mother Earth was supplanted with the
villification of the female in order to justify the institution of a male
dominance and hierarchy in all human affairs.

A8

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re:Rily's Lesbian Alliance! -- FanMan, 18:18:41 05/26/01 Sat

Equality of religion. Gaia counters the patriarchy of christianity.

Respect women. Equality for women. OOOOOOH I think I will go join Rily's
Lesbian Alliance(grin)

Seriously I beleive in equality and I respect women as equals.

Good points A8!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re:Rily's Lesbian Alliance! -- Anthony8, 19:24:38 05/26/01 Sat

I really don't align myself with any sort of extremism. Did that post sound
militant? ;) I surely didn't intend it that way. There's definitely a pure
beauty to be found in symmetry and balance. Unfortunately our society is not
anywhere in the vicinity not just with respect to gender, but race, national
identity,class--you name it. It may seem like we've been moving, but I keep
thinking that in terms of social progress "this should be '2001' and it's
more like 'A Clockwork Orange.' And you know what? The whole purpose of
mythology, even in its most modern and pop culture expressions, is to move
us past the external barriers, enlighten us and enable us to bestow our own
Boons on society. Ooops--too deep for me--must-get-back-to
the-lighter-side...

Stream of consciousness--mini Movie of the Week recommendation. Note the
parallels between Spike and Alex the Droog in "A Clockwork Orange." Just a
thought.

A8

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re:Rily's Lesbian Alliance! -- FanMan, 19:47:57 05/26/01 Sat

No you were not being militant. Just some sillines from me. I am not
militant; I simply consider all humans as my equals, in a metaphorical sense
not absolute sense. You can only be equal if you ACT equal; asking or
demanding equality implies that it does not exist YET.

A8 You were starting to sound like OnM and that is a compliment. I am no
longer confused about this question of why slayers are female that I started
and thak you for adding insight to my original idea.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Why the slayer is female -- SingedCat, 19:32:08 05/26/01 Sat

I think The Slayer is female because the first Slayer happened to be female.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> The female of the species is the deadlier... -- rowan, 16:00:38 05/27/01
Sun

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: I figured it out! -- Rufus, 20:25:50 05/27/01 Sun

If you have the boxed set of the first season there is an interview with
Joss before Welcome to the Hellmouth and the Harvest. He talks about his
love for horror films and noted that there was always this blonde girl who
would end up dead. The idea for Buffy came from the idea of what would
happen if the blonde girl not only fought back but won.


Classic Movie of the Week - May 25th 2001 -- OnM, 22:22:16 05/25/01 Fri

*******

Is that a dagger, or a crucifix I see
You hold so tightly in your hand
And all the while the distance grows
Between you and me
I do not understand

At my request / He'll take me in
In that tenderness / I am floating away
With no certainty / Nothing to rely on
Holding still / For a moment
What a moment this is / Oh for a moment
I'll forget in / A moment of bliss

____________Peter Gabriel, from *The Blood of Eden*

*******

"Haven't we already Deja'd this Vu?"

____________Willow Rosenberg

*******

It's those damn synchonicities again. I had decided quite some time back--
like several weeks ago at least--
that this week's Classic Movie was going to be director Wim Wenders *Until
the End of the World*. I
mean, every year of Buffy, come season finale time, we roll out This Year's
Apocalypse and Buffy and the
gang do their thing. However, in no previous year that I can recall did one
increasingly non-vampirish
vampire fellow use the exact words 'Until the end of the world' in his
verbal response to another character.
Then, while perusing this board earlier this very week, I find that there is
a Shakespeare tie-in also, St.
Crispin et al. Sheesh! My mind would boggle, were it not already completely
boggled-out by the events of
Tuesday eve. So it goes...

I've really wanted to recommend this flick for a long time, it's such a
great favorite of mine, and it was the
film that first introduced me to Wenders, but the obvious tie-in with the
BtVS season-enders pretty much
precluded doing so until now.

What you will find to be rather interesting should you elect to rent this
film, is that the 'End of the World'
is *not* the central theme of the movie. Instead, it's a point that
everything else moves around. It isn't the
destination, it's the music for a 'dance around the planet', as one of the
characters aptly puts it near the end
of the story. This is typical for Wenders, who seems to prefer to describe
things--people, places,
emotions-- by the space around them. The whole movie is long, rambling,
almost like a dream of
consciousness, but it doesn't ever seem long, you almost immediately get
swept into the flow and after that
all you can do is stare in fascination.

The lead character in 'Until...', Claire Tourneur, is played by Solveig
Dommartin, who has acted in several
other Wenders films. I don't know if they have any relationship beyond the
professional one of
moviemaking, but she could certainly be his muse, her acting style is so
much in tune with Wender's unique
cinematic visions. At the beginning of 'the End' she plays a woman wandering
the globe, in search of no
destination in particular, only journeys. The stories of these journeys are
often narrated by Claires' most
recent serious lover, Eugene Fitzpatrick, played by the estimable Sam Neill
in a wonderfully understated
performance. These narrations also seem more like journeys themselves, they
weave in and out of the film
sometimes harmoniously and sometimes in counterpoint-- or as if in layers,
not sequences.

As might be expected, Claire's (seeming) aimlessness leads to chance
meetings with a series of eccentric
and highly charismatic individuals, and gradually a destination forms,
except we have no idea where it
actually is, or for that matter, what it actually is. If this sounds
confusing, don't worry.. Negative space,
remember? The filmmakers keep drawing the space around the destination, and
all of a sudden, without
realizing it, there you are.

The other lead role is played by William Hurt, who meets up with Claire
while on the lam from a variety of
pursuers. I won't spoil you by telling you the specifics, or the space will
get too positive too soon, and this
would not be a good thing. Suffice it to say that Hurt's character, Sam
Farber, is on a quest to do a good
deed, hampered by the self-serving actions of others who have their own
agenda, and that he eventually
succeeds, but as always no good deed goes unencumbered by sorrow. Does this
sound familiar? Of course,
apocalypse, remember?

Going by memory, I pretty much thought that the main tie to BtVS was the
apocalypse theme (and the
magnificent and atypical tangent Wenders takes it on), but when watching it
again last night and tonight
prior to writing the column here, I was struck by how many other aspects
resonated with the overall theme
of Season 5. I admit that this is somewhat surprising to me, but it's there,
there's no denying it, just like the
excerpts from Gabriel's 'Blood of Eden' that I quoted above suddenly seem to
have meanings beyond what
I thought of before. There is love, there is loss, there is duty, there are
recriminations, there are battles,
there are victories, there are people lost in dreams.

Not being a hero, I can't offer you death, but as movies go, this is a
pretty decent 'Gift'. I hope it'll do. If
not, we'll have a rebirth next week!

E. Pluribus Cinema, Unum,

OnM

*******

Technical extravaganza (sort of, low budget variety):

*Until the End of the World* is not available on DVD, according to the IMDB,
but I was pretty sure that I
remember seeing it a few weeks back when I was video shopping. I didn't pick
it up since I own a copy on
laserdisc (also the review copy), but of course you can ask the store
personell to check-- they may have
updated info that isn't on the IMDB yet. For sure, the film is available on
VHS.

The film was released in 1991, running time is 2 hours & 38 minutes. Aspect
ratio of the theatrical release
is 1.85:1, and the soundtrack is in standard Dolby Surround. By the way,
lots of great tunes in this flick!
Wenders is extremely hip when it come to the use of contemporary music, and
it is used very effectively.

Cast members include: Solveig Dommartin, William Hurt, Sam Neill, Chick
Ortega, Pietro Falcone, Ernest
Berk, Christine Osterlein, Rüdiger Eddy, Mitchell Vogler, Adelle Lutz, Ernie
Dingo and numerous others.

*******

Coming Next Week: Since we are now at the end of BtVS Season 5, I have it in
mind to do a little
summary of the films I've recommended so far, nothing fancy, just a way for
those of you who are recent
readers of the board here to catch up with some of my previous choices
without having to dig through
pages of archives. (I look back from here at the end of May and I can't
hardly believe that I've been doing
this every Friday night since February!! Of course, I'm nuts, so that
explains some of it... ;) We've got a
long summer ahead, and I also want to do a little poll and ask for some
input and your thoughts on my
Classic Movies. As always, thanks so very much for indulging me, and see you
soon. Peace!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - May 25th 2001 -- FanMan, 22:33:51
05/25/01 Fri

Coolness and much congrats on your moment of synchronicity!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Classic Movie of the Week - May 25th 2001 -- Anthony8, 00:21:09
05/26/01 Sat

You know, I rented this movie about 8 years ago at a local but now
Blockbuster made defunct video store that specialized in hard to find tapes
and haven't been able to find it ever since. Talk about "Apocalypse Now!"
being a film where the journey's the thing! "Until The End of The World"
takes you on a real odyssey! "Blood of Eden" is one of my favorite songs
and, from what I can remember, was used to great effect in the movie (wasn't
it the scene where they are walking across the desert dragging a airplane
door?). The soundtrack for the film is still available and doesn't include
"Blood of Eden" on it. Go figure.

You should check out Peter Gabriel's video compilation "All About Us." It
has a nice visual interpretation of the song among others. As much as "The
Gift" brings to mind "Blood of Eden," the Peter Gabriel song that came to my
mind was "Mercy Street" off of the "So" CD. It deals with
self-doubt/depression, the transient nature of our reality, isolation,
yearning for a return to childhood innocence and parental protection, and
the achievement of final peace through suicide of a woman named Anne
(actually, poet Anne Sexton). Since one good lyric deserves another:

Looking down on empty streets all she can see
Are the dreams all made solid, are the dreams all made real
All of the buildings, all of the cars
Were once just a dream in somebody's head
She pictures the broken glass, pictures the steam
She pictures the soul with no leak at the seam.

Let's take the boat out--wait until darkness
Let's take the boat out--wait until darkness comes.

Nowhere in the corridors of pale green and gray
Nowhere in the suburbs, in the cold light of day
There in the midst of it, so alive and alone
Words support like bone...

Dreaming of Mercy Street--wear your inside out
Dreaming of mercy in your daddy's arms again
Dreaming of Mercy Street--swear they moved that sign
Dreaming of mercy--in your daddy's arms.

Pulling out the papers and drawers that slide
Tugging at the darkness word upon word
Confessing all the secret things in the warm velvet box
To the priest he's the doctor, he can handle the shocks
Dreaming of the tenderness, the tremble in the hips...
Of kissing Mary's lips.

Dreaming of Mercy Street--Wear your inside out
Dreaming of mercy in your daddy's arms again
Dreaming of Mercy Street--swear they moved that sign
Looking for mercy in your daddy's arms.

Anne with her father--he's out in the boat
Riding the water, riding the waves on the sea.

"Mercy Street" by Peter Gabriel

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Wonderful choice, A8! Thanks! -- OnM, 14:49:30 05/26/01 Sat

You just happened to mention one of my all time P. Gabriel faves, and you're
so right, it fits *The Gift* nicely, certainly in the mood it creates even
if the story is just a bit different.

That line "She pictures the soul with no leak at the seam" is just so sad
and so real, it's enough to make you weep just reading it, and even more so
when he sings the song in that sad, wonderful voice he commands so surely.

You are also right that 'Blood of Eden' is played during the scene when they
are hiking through the desert. I won't say more so as not to spoil others
who haven't see the film yet, it's a powerful scene.

My statement that the film is available on VHS was based on info from the
IMDB, which I always check on if the title is one I haven't aquired just
recently. I try not to recommend a film that has been discontinued from
video availability (and haven't so far).

Next trip out to the video store, I will check on whether *Until...* is out
on DVD yet. The visuals are just stunning in this film, and the widescreen
really adds significantly to the overall effectiveness of the
cinematography. The laser version is excellent also, but of course is likely
to be impossible to find nowadays. I'm very fortunate in that there is a
little video shop right here in my hometown that carries a large collection
of used laserdiscs for sale or rent, as you might guess, I'm a regular
there!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> OnM: Loved to see your suggestions. -- curious, 12:28:22 05/27/01 Sun

>>Since we are now at the end of BtVS Season 5, I have it in mind to do a
little
summary of the films I've recommended so far, nothing fancy, just a way for
those of you who are recent
readers of the board here to catch up with some of my previous choices
without having to dig through
pages of archives.

OnM. Please do. I don't get to spend alot of time here *sigh* and would love
to see your recommendations. Especially since you seem to like the non
mainstream films and artistic ones too. Speaking of which, have you seen the
remastered version of "Vertigo" on DVD. I think this was Hitchcock's finest
work and the epitome of his philosophy of "Pure Cinema."

Looking foward to seeing your suggestion. BTW I think I heard mention of
Kubrick's "2001: A space odyssey" being re released on big screen this year
but sadly not in 70mm as hoped. Can't wait.

I'm going to find "End of the World" this week :)


Buffy's Way or Giles'? -- Brian, 09:48:00 05/26/01 Sat

Is it either/or, or both?

And where does this leave Angel's epiphany?

I personally think we need both Buffy's way and Giles's to protect us
against evil. We need good to fight evil, BUT it takes evil acts as well.

We need Mother Theresa. But also need General Sherman.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Buffy's Way or Giles'? -- Max, 10:38:56 05/26/01 Sat

And how about Wesley sending his men to certain death.

Sherman would have been proud.

War is Hell, you can't refine it.

Bring Back Angel Noir. His "epiphany" was lame.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Buffy's Way or Giles'? -- Wiccagrrl, 10:48:16 05/26/01 Sat

I do think we need both. We need people like Giles, who can do the things
others can't or shouldn't. But we also need the ones like Buffy, who can
hold onto the idealism. They're both important. And, in a way, both heroic.
I think Giles is wrong- I think he is a hero. Because he was able to do what
had to be done.

As far as Angel, I think that he just couldn't have continued to function as
"total war" Angel for long. It was eating him up. Unlike Buffy, whose
humanity wouldn't have allowed her to cross a certain line, Angel could- but
he seemed (to me, anyway) to find himself being swallowed up by the
darkness. Giles made the hard choices because it was the only way to protect
the world and protect Buffy. In the end, Angel was getting dangerously close
to a place where he didn't give a crap about the world, and how do you fight
for the greater good if that's where your head is at? If you've lost sight
of what you're fighting for?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Buffy's Way or Giles'? -- Rufus, 13:20:06 05/26/01 Sat

If you look back to past shows it's Giles that preaches restraint. He
sometimes holds Buffy from doing the impulsive thing, and shows her that
revenge for sake of it is pointless. What he did was something he had to
consider for awhile. This is one time he realized that if the god could get
back from her dark room she would destroy for the sake of revenge. He killed
Ben to make sure that never happened.
As for total war Angel. Wolfram and Hart represents the evil in us all. If
you use evil to defeat them you just make the problem bigger. You become
evil and it's a one way trip. When your opponent can never die you have to
make them play your game, not engage in becoming what they want you to be.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Buffy's Way or Giles'? -- Max, 15:35:07 05/26/01 Sat

I think Wesley and Giles proves that you must use evil to defeat evil.

And just because you use evil, become ruthless, it doesn't make you evil as
long as your ends were justly serving a higher cause.

Being evil is worst than doing evil.
-Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Or as they say in Section "Our ends are just, but our means ruthless"

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's Way or Giles'? -- FanMan, 18:12:37 05/26/01 Sat

Xander said "What about Ben? we could kill him instead, we could kill an
innocent" Everyone stared at him in auckward silence. Giles had plenty of
time to consider that option, Ben proved he was not innocent when he came to
Buffy in Spiral: he could have simply driven away when he saw the Knights,
and it is a surity that he knew why they were there, the Key. It was Giles
or Spike and Spike was busy trying to protect Dawn. Giles did not just spare
Buffy from that hard moral choice, he spared all of the scoobies.
Giles did a good act by not even asking someone else to get the blood of a
partially innocent victim on their hands. He could have delegated that
option, but he took the full responsibility for himself.

Giles is good, but he is willing to be ruthless for just cause.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's Way or Giles'? -- Max, 01:33:12 05/27/01 Sun

Ben came to Buffy because he knew that she needed his help.

To save Giles.

Ben was mostly innocent. He did attempt to sacifice Dawn to save himself,
but he was right in saying that it was either him or her.

I think what both Giles and Wesley did throws Angel's "epiphany" out the
window. I say let's get Angel Noir back so he can again engage in Total War
with Wolfram and Hart.

Personally I think he should turn the children of the lawyers into vampires.
Then they wouldn't feel save not even at home.

And I have some ideas what he should do to Lila as well. As a warning to the
others.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy's Way or Giles'? -- Cleanthes, 18:48:30 05/26/01 Sat

I think this 'evil to defeat evil' concept misses the point of General
Sherman. Did Sherman enslave people to fight the Confederacy?

Did Sherman start the total war, or did Moseby?

See, there remained a difference. When Sherman marched across Georgia, he
made Georgia howl, AND, he brought the Jubilee, the flag that makes you
free.

A moral line need be drawn regardless of the need to take necessary
utilitarian measures, or else it's better to give up.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> It's not a perfect world, children. That means us. (nt) -- Singed Cat,
19:29:51 05/26/01 Sat


Buffy 's "clean" death -- Cynthia, 19:09:21 05/26/01 Sat

Having just finished a second viewing of The Gift. I was wondering?

Why is she so spotless?

She's just gone though an energy portal, supposedly filled with incredible
power, and fallen from a height of least a hundred feet, so why isn't she a
piece of pulp?

A woman in my high-rise building commited suicide by jumping from the 18th
floor. The impact left an impression on the concrete so deep it had to be
cleaned by professional building cleaners with a high-pressure water pump.

Any guesses?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Buffy's "clean" death -- Diana Michelle, 19:15:39 05/26/01 Sat

Plus she fell face first and somehow landed on her back.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Buffy's "clean" death -- Anthony8, 19:50:18 05/26/01 Sat

You wanted maybe they should have shown just a cashmere sweater, leather
pants, some boots and five gallons of lifelike gore spread all around?
;)Though probably very realistic, it would have made the scene sickeningly
horrifying rather than sad. Probably would have offended the censors too.

A8

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Buffy's "clean" death -- FanMan, 20:01:08 05/26/01 Sat

How many times have you seen Buffy with more than a little scratch? Sarah
has a germ phobia and that might be why you do not see her get real dirty in
the show. Sarah is also the main character, lots of makeup. Maby she just
has as part of her contract that she doesn't have to do major gory injuries.
It would be easy for her to negotiate that considering she is THE STAR of
the show.

Of course the simpler answer is it is PG. Why do you think the vampires turn
to dust instead of leaving yucky rotting corpses?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Salyer = tough body -- jc, 22:58:54 05/26/01 Sat

Why is she so spotless?

Buffy is a Slayer. Built tough, we saw her fall from the tower half way when
fighting against Glory. And she stood up and was still kicking Glory around.
We've seen Buffy get run over by a car, jump out of tall buildings etc. We
see her being totally fine after such situations. Her body is TOUGH. That
comes with the Slayer package.

Also note that the rate at which she fell was lessened by the portal. When
Buffy jumped the impact force was lowered. The portal was at least a good
half way down the tower. So that could also help to explain why her body was
not "pulp."

Spike also fell from the platform where Dawn was (with no portal to lessen
his fall). He didn't get all "pulp."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Salyer = tough body -- Cynthia, 04:52:28 05/27/01 Sun

I wasn't expecting pulp actually. It's just that all the other characters
show visible signs of having been in a fight.

I don't know whether Geller's "germ phobia" is actually an issue. Or even
the censors. I'm trying to look at it from the standpoint of what it means
relation to Buffy's "return". Having a non-damaged body would certainly make
things easier, no?

As far as we know, Buffy's buried, but is her body decomposing? Hummm. The
only thing we are sure about is that what makes Buffy Buffy is no longer
there, so that we can only preceive her as dead.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Salyer = tough body -- Sam Raimond, 18:52:56 05/28/01 Mon

Maybe Slayer bodies don't decompose as fast as regular people either, that
would make her ressurection easier too.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Out, out, damn spot! -- mundusmundi, 06:26:54 05/27/01 Sun

Besides what everyone else has said, I think it's also meanto to be
symbolic/psychological. Buffy's death is "pure," in the sense that it's
meant to be seen as having purified her. This also may be why she's wearing
white, in addition to the lack of "pulp."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> That was my thinking exactly, but you got here first! ;) -- OnM,
08:12:16 05/27/01 Sun

Also remember her peaceful expression. Everyone around her is battered and
bloody and emotionally wrecked, especially Spike. Buffy is clean and
peaceful because she is, as Giles said, "Not like us. Buffy's a hero".

Her apparent 'purity' is also relevent to her eventual rebirth, methinks,
although of course we will have to wait and see.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Her beatific smile, good observation! :) (N/T) -- mundusmundi,
10:06:52 05/27/01 Sun

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Her beatific smile, good observation! :) (N/T) -- rowan,
15:59:16 05/27/01 Sun

Well, she is a Slayer after all, and I think we've seen other examples where
she's taken a big fall without much injury (earlier in the ep she fell from
1/2 way up the tower with no visible injury).

Plus, in several interviews, Joss said he wanted a good looking corpse. He
also said she is rotting in her grave even as we speak, so apparently
Slayer-strength doesn't extend to keeping you free from worms. :)


Opinions on a bet-- Buffy & Spike(spoilers for next season) -- SingedCat,
05:52:48 05/27/01 Sun

OK, I've been showing the episodes to a friend this past 6 months, and we've
gotton into some great discussions. Way back in winter he said he didn't get
why Buffy didn't feel anything romantic for Spike. (Well, he's only seen
this season and last season episodes) I offered some background, and he said
he still thought Buffy would feel something for him. I said it would never
happen. We made a 'gentleman's wager', and clarified it-- in order for me to
lose, Buffy has to betray some romantic feeling for Spike-- even unwilling
romantic feeling will do.

So far we've agreed that this hasn't happened. But I thought I'd open it up
to the Board and see what you think.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Oh, here's the spoiler-- -- SingedCat, 05:55:27 05/27/01 Sun

And, since Joss says SMG will be back next season somehow as Buffy, we can
speculate if this wil *ever* happen.

I do concede the possiblity of affection, by the way. Just not romantic
love.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> It will never be romantic love... -- OnM, 09:04:57 05/27/01 Sun

Spike said it himself in *The Gift*. He has accepted that Buffy will never
see him that way, but he has gained a measure of respect from her because of
the sacrifices he made for her and Dawn.

He will discover, if he hasn't already, that this is actually better. Her
actions have stated that in Buffy's mind, he is no longer 'beneath her'. I
think this is/was more of a personal victory than having her return his
love.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Maybe not but... -- Nina, 12:02:12 05/27/01 Sun

I think the matter is closed for Spike. He received more than he expected.
He got the absolution, the respect and Buffy "saw" him. I don't see him
trying to look for anything next year. What I do wonder about is if for the
next two years something will happen to Buffy herself. I don't say next year
(too soon). Probably only friendship. But after a while, when there will be
no more black and white, maybe she will be able to feel something else. And
maybe not. It could go either way. I don't think it matters at this point.
Spike himself acknowledged it.

As for David Fury's comments that they could never allow Buffy to feel
anything for Spike because it would diminish her as a hero, I don't see that
as a real issue. The line between good and bad has really been erased with
"The gift". Tara called Giles a killer, Dawn called Ben a monster, the
grandpa looking Doc is in fact a monster. The debate is not about the label
you have on your forehead (souled vampire/evil vampire/good guy /bad guy)
it's about the actions you take. I think "The gift" show that completely.

Ironically, Buffy rejected Spike and thought about dating Ben. Ben was the
monster and Spike was revealed to be the ally. Now if Buffy and Spike end up
together it will be because JW find it an important plot devise. He won't
use it if it's pointless. It all depends what's in store for Buffy. Does she
has something to learn from such a relationship or not.

Personally I am quite happy with the status quo. Respect on both sides is
all I could hope for.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: Maybe not but... -- Rufus, 13:14:49 05/27/01 Sun

The romance aspect.....hmmmmmmmm.....never say never. In the Buffyverse
"weird love is better than no love".
I see no romantic leanings in Buffys attitude towards Spike, but with Joss
one never knows, in the last ep he showed us monsters come in many packages,
some of them not obvious to the naked eye. But that's the nature of
monsters, they aren't always what we are looking for. If there is ever a
romance with Buffy and Spike it would be well explained before anything
happened. I say let's get Buffy breathing again before we try to send her on
a date.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Okay, I'll take the bet... -- rowan, 13:51:29 05/27/01 Sun

Okay, I'll be the one to go out on a limb.

I think we're 1/2 way into a two year story arc which will end with a
romantic relationship between Buffy and Spike. During the first year, the
goal was to establish Spike's feelings and rehabilitate him enough so that
Buffy could establish a professional and personal rapport with him (without
the fans going bonkers at the sudden "change").

If you notice, around the time of the Crush episode, there was alot of talk
about how terrible this storyline was, that Spike was a stalker, obsessed,
that it violated the canon for her to have feelings for him, it would never
happen, etc...but by The Gift, I think almost every fan accepts the
genuineness of his affection and the writers have turned the tables on us to
the point that Buffy has actually entrusted what she loves most (Dawn) to
Spike's care (on multiple occasions, too).

I expect that the second year of this arc will focus on Buffy's developing
feelings (without the pressure of Spike's, since he has willingly put them
aside to accept the professional/personal relationship on her terms). Since
Buffy has so firmly put Spike in his place (romantically), any attempts to
change the status quo will, interestingly, have to come from her.

Why do I think Buffy has feelings for Spike? First, there was alot of care
taken to demonstrate some sexual tension between the two in FFL. Second,
Buffy would not have encouraged someone who had romantic feelings for her by
giving him a kiss like the one in Intervention. Third, Buffy entrusted Dawn
to Spike. Fourth, she did not contradict Spike when he said, "I know you'll
never love me"; instead, she hesitated, as if unsure what to say.

The seeds of affection are there, boys and girls. Buffy's biggest mental
obstacle will be getting around the idea of Spike being able to love her
without a soul when Angel couldn't and dealing with feelings about a second
vamp. She's already 1/2way there, because she's accepted that his feelings
are genuine for her and Dawn.

What was Crush? Ep 15? I'm expecting something around ep 15 next season that
will show us that Buffy returns Spike's feelings. It will be interesting to
see if Spike will still think the relationship is a good idea or if he'll
make Buffy sweat it out for a while.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Really good points -- curious, 14:36:51 05/27/01 Sun

and I wish I could say more but you guys are making my brain hurt now. Too
much typing in one day.

But I think you're right about Buffy's main obstale but I also think that
Buffy's relationship is merely in its infancy. She's only just begun to
respect him as a person rather than seeing him as a monster, but with Joss,
who knows where this will lead. Personally, I'd like to see a deep
friendship come out of it based on respect and understanding between 2
people with very unique problems.

Most of all, I agree with Rufus' last statement.
>>I say let's get Buffy breathing again before we try to send her on a date.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Okay, I'll take the bet... -- mundusmundi, 15:10:47
05/27/01 Sun

Dunno about true romance - that seems to be Angel's department - but a
sexual fling at some point wouldn't surprise me, especially if Buffy comes
back angry and out-of-sorts and estranged from her merely mortal friends.
(Who wouldn't be?) That she & Spike now share something else in common -
death - will doubtless create some new dynamics in the relationship, but how
much or how far who knows. Should be veddy interesting....:)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Okay, I'll take the bet... -- darrenK, 17:06:28
05/27/01 Sun

While I don't want to speculate on whether there will be a romantic
relationship, I will say that Joss has been planting the seeds of this arc
since Season 2.

"Spike, my boy, you have to work from the inside, to kill this girl you have
to love her..."
--Angel to Spike in Becoming 1

Did anyone notice that the sun is rising at the end of the Gift, but Spike
isn't smoking? Is that an oversight? Hmmmm...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Okay, I'll take the bet... -- Rufus, 17:36:53
05/27/01 Sun

He had to crouch in the shade. The sun was up and he was having the worst
day in his undead life.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: OomM forshawdowing something? -- Nina,
17:53:09 05/27/01 Sun

I've had this idea in my head for a long while, but nothing seemed to tell
me that it could be right. Here are my ramblings on the meaning of Spike's
dream:

The dream begins with Buffy barging in (like she will do up until "Crush")
After their short conversation where they banter as usual, Spike grabs Buffy
and plants a kiss on her lips. This looks like "Crush" when Spike forces his
love on Buffy. Chains her, forcing her to listen to him. Buffy in the dream
backs away in horror, putting her hand over her mouth. She does the same in
real life. She is horrified by his admittance of love and closes the door of
her home to his face. Then in the dream there's a pause. She's thinking. And
slowly she puts down her hand. It could fit with the absolution she gave him
in "Intervention". Other pause in the dream sequence: they look at each
other. That could be a long period of time when it's status quo (next year).
They both keep their distance, but Buffy is not horrified anymore. Then she
is the one to make the next move. Slowly she comes to him and finally kisses
him.

If the dream is a prediction of their future together, we could say that
what's to come is a period of acceptation and status quo where they both
remain single and then after a while Buffy will make the first move when she
is ready and when Spike doesn't expect it anymore.

If not... well the dream was just a normal dream! :)

By the way, I loved your analysis Rowan!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: OomM forshawdowing something? -- MKS,
20:14:45 05/27/01 Sun

Great ideas. I would love to see a relationship develop between the two.
Spike is certainly one of the most interesting characters on the show (if
not THE most interesting), and it would really stink if he left the series
for any reason (or even went to Angel). I'm willing to wait for a
Buffy/Spike relationship to further develop. In five years this series has
never failed to keep me intrigued, and the potential to keep me guessing is
one of its best traits.

And what does OomM mean?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Initials for the ep. Out of my
Mind.......... -- Rufus, 20:22:28 05/27/01 Sun

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Initials for the ep. Out of my
Mind.......... -- MKS, 07:27:30 05/28/01 Mon

Thanks. Of course I got that about a minute after I posted...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Opinions on a bet-- Buffy & Spike(spoilers for next season) --
london, 14:05:16 05/27/01 Sun

There is no way Joss will have Buff and Spikey sharing romantic time with
eachother.Although Spike is my fav character he is not broody and mysterious
enough,we know too much about him and his purpose in "death" is to love Buff
from afar.I hope in episode 6 he becomes a part of the gang but how to
explain this will not be easy ie,does he keep the chip inside his head,does
he get a soul or will the powers that be sort this problem out for us? We
will just have to wait and see.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Opinions on a bet-- Buffy & Spike(spoilers for next season) --
rowan, 15:52:13 05/27/01 Sun

"There is no way Joss will have Buff and Spikey sharing romantic time with
each other."

You'd better watch out -- sometimes I'm sure that Joss surfs the web looking
for comments just like this so that he can prove people wrong. :)

All I ask is that you consider the change in Spike's feelings towards Buffy
from OoMM through Crush, and the change in Spike's relationship to Buffy &
the SG in Crush through The Gift. In a few short episodes, we've gone from
"Buffy will never treat Spike like a friend", "Spike is a soulless demon
incapable of real love" and the "SG will never accept Spike" to the exact
opposite position.

In fact, I even go so far as to say that they are more likely to have a
romantic relationship than a strictly sexual one. A sexual relationship
would be too obvious from the chemistry between them. It's more fun for the
writers to manuever them (and us) into a position where they want/need a
romantic relationship.

Plus, let's face it, Spike is a relationship kind of guy. He was with Dru
for ages. After a little time with Harmony (and who can doubt but that she
was a weak substitute for Buffy), he's looking for another soulmate. He no
longer fits anymore with his demonic soulmate, so now he's in the market for
another.

I do agree with Rufus, though - let's get the girl out of her grave first
before we try to hook her up with someone (remember my prediction -- episode
15!).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> I'll write episode 15 on my hand......:):):) -- Rufus, 16:29:22
05/27/01 Sun

Anything that happens on Buffy has been worked out long in advance. Remember
the scene I quoted in Blood Ties that was used in the Gift. It was the only
way it could have gone given the information I was shown. The only thing
missing was Buffy refering to herself as a mother(Dawn being made from part
of her). If you go back carefully through the episodes you can get an idea
of where it may go.
Look carefully at The Crush and remember what was said about stalkers. One
thing I consider in stalking is how much of a threat is the person that is
doing the stalking? With Spike he clearly loved Buffy but approached it from
a demon perspective(worked for Dru). But when the sun goes down it was clear
that Spike was no threat to Buffy. He backed off when she told him to, and
even though he didn't leave town, he left her alone. He ceased being a
stalker. The next move was up to Buffy alone. It was up to her to decide if
Spike could be trusted as more than a pathetic hanger on. Buffy decided that
she needed Spike, wierd love and all. What Spike had to learn he did in
Intervention. He said to Warren that he heard that it was better(Buffybot)
than the real thing. He played with his toy only to feel empty and bored.
His true test of feelings came when Glory stuck her finger in his chest. He
went through torture and possible death because he wanted to spare Buffy the
pain of losing Dawn. He learned that though a nice dream the Buffybot wasn't
real only his actions on behalf of Buffy were. This was the true turning
point for Buffy herself. She was ready to finish Spike off, but his actions
showed her that he was genuine in his feelings. It may have been expressed
in a wierd way, but it was still love.
Now we get to the Gift. Out of everyone, Buffy asked Spike to take care of
Dawn, not any of the SG, Spike. She reinvited him into her home letting go
of the barrier of distrust that had been put there in reaction to his
behavior in Crush. In her own way Buffy already loves Spike, as a friend.
She has shown the ultimate trust in charging him with the safety of the
person she loves the most, Dawn.
I try not to endorse ships of any kind because they can divide the fans into
hostile camps. As I see it, ships sink and sail away. But if you ask me if
Buffy and Spike may have a relationship I have to tell you, it isn't
unthinkable.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Very nice said! -- rowan, 09:25:53 05/29/01 Tue

I agree...I try not to get too locked into the romantic relationships, too,
since so much can happen that prevents them or changes them. Plus, I figure
the writers are pretty much creative enough to get us fans to follow them in
any direction (despite what we may think is now impossible). I just see the
"signs of the times" so to speak and think this one is in the writers'
minds. Although I do have concerns, since Buffy's boyfriends all come with
an expiration date.

I think one interesting element is that Joss has remarked on several
occasions (and especially recently with the move to UPN) that Buffy and
Angel must move on. I'm wondering as time goes by here if the writers are
reintepreting what once was viewed as "soulmates" as more of a "bittersweet
first love". If that's even partially true, then Buffy is really still
waiting for her first really adult love (sorry, I don't think Riley really
counts, with all due respect to Riley fans).

Hmmmm....

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Opinions on a bet-- Buffy & Spike(spoilers for next season) --
MKS, 20:21:31 05/27/01 Sun

Also, it's well known that in many cases, sexual tension (will they/won't
they, etc.) plays much better on television - holding viewers more strongly
than a "marriage".

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> IT's as clear as the KISS on Spike's face -- darrenK, 10:14:56 05/28/01
Mon

Thinking about the Buffy/Spike thing, starting with
Becoming 2 where "he likes the world too much to cause an apocalypse," (Some
big bad he is) then moving through Out of My Mind and Something Blue
(Hello!), I would say that Buffy and Spike have been on a 4 season collison
course that can only end with them together. Even Doug Petrie's assertion
that Buffy would never lower herself to be with Spike (Me thinks he doth
protest too much) sounds like a bona fide snow job. Since when do the
writers go out of their way to shut off plot possibilities?

And if Something Blue happened in a vacuum, maybe it would just be another
episode, but considering 4 years of context, I'd say we're dealing with
MASSIVE FORESHADOWING.

The writers have done a brillant job of inching the whole process along so
slowly that even we can't really tell if it's going to happen, but it is,
there's too much build-up for it not to. They've spent too much time laying
the groundwork. It's all right there in front of our faces, just like the
kiss of gratitude in Intervention.

They've put Dawn on Spike's side ("...chip, soul, same diff"). They've had
Spike win over Willow, even charm Xander in a way that Angel never did.

And then there was Fool for Love when we find out that William the Bloody is
really only "William the Bloody Awful Poet," an aspiring writer and social
outcast stomped all over by the Cordelia of his day. Isn't the burden of
otherness what the show is really all about? Isn't otherness a condition for
Scoobydom? And wasn't that scene meant to earn our most profound sympathies
and explain Spike's bitterness.

Maybe this show's principle character is Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but for
four seasons it has also been about the redemption of William the Bloody.
And William's redemption won't arrive until he and the Slayer settle down to
start breeding the half-dead, or, is it the all-dead since Buffy's dead? Or,
perhaps the half-resurrected? It's hard to figure out right now.

And have any of you seen a character on Buffy mourn like Spike at the end of
the Gift?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: IT's as clear as the KISS on Spike's face -- rowan, 09:30:43
05/29/01 Tue

"I would say that Buffy and Spike have been on a 4 season collison course
that can only end with them together."

Hmmm..interesting. Now you're making me wonder (since Spike wasn't a regular
until S4) if Joss & Crew started to think this out a little when they
realized that they had the potential to spin DB off (and needed another dark
love interest for Buffy). I wonder if Joss just put the pieces out there and
waited to see if they would gel. I did hear that it was JM's great acting
ability that made Joss think of the expanded Spike storyline.

"Maybe this show's principle character is Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but for
four seasons it has also been about the redemption of William the Bloody.
And William's redemption won't arrive until he and the Slayer settle down to
start breeding the half-dead, or, is it the all-dead since Buffy's dead? Or,
perhaps the half-resurrected? It's hard to figure out right now."

Okay, you've discovered my secret -- this is why I'm watching (truly, not
kidding). As much as I love Buffy, it was watching them tranform Spike
that's kept me interested.

By the way, vamps are infertile, right?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: IT's as clear as the KISS on Spike's face -- verdantheart,
12:09:21 05/29/01 Tue

rowan, I'm in complete agreement with you again! What could be more
compelling than a demon transformed to fight for the light? With no human
soul, can Spike ever expect any reward from the PTB?

Going on (and in danger of harping on what I've said before, that I think
that Mr Marsters is an extraordinary actor), I wanted to mention that I
believe that the best actors give more to the role than is in the script
(subtly bringing out the essence of the character via nuances of voice,
position, and expression). When this occurs on a TV series, the writers are
then inspired to build on the character. In this case, perhaps expanding the
role rather than killing him off as another vampire villain. (Another
example: Garak in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine)

I'll spare you further thoughts for now!

- vh


I want to see the funeral! -- Hauptman, 08:10:07 05/27/01 Sun

I was disappointed to see the headstone at the end of the ep. though I
understand that it's a message from Joss, "She's really dead, kids." Fine.
And I am delighted to hear she is coming back--though I would have really
dug a few episodes of "Willow the kick-ass Wicca."

But I want to see the funeral. I want to see the whole cast go through their
grief paces together. I want graveside recriminations and confrontations. I
want Angel there, Faith, Cordelia, Wesley, Johnathan, Riley, Amy, everyone.
Gimme, gimme, gimme. But I don't think we are going to get it. I assume,
with the WB vs UPN slapping each other's faces with dueling gloves, that it
will be too complicated and political. Pity.

Hey, how come no one is talking about Giles new spin-off in England. How the
heck are we supposed to see it stateside? I think it's great that these
characters are so interesting they can be spun off easily. I would even
watch the wacky adventures of Anya. Maybe NBC will scope her up for a Must
See TV sit-com.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: I want to see the funeral! -- darrenK, 16:55:31 05/27/01 Sun

Yep, there should be a funeral.

The ENTIRE Watcher's council should be there on their pin-striped knees for
the way Buffy sacrificed to save their smug overly academic asses. And they
should declare her Buffy the God-Slayer and there should be 10,000 angels
(with a small a) singing and the entire ungrateful population of humans
stupid enough to live on a Hellmouth. Without Buffy they're toast...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Good point -- Hauptman, 10:32:58 05/28/01 Mon

Good point, DarrenK. I expect there would be a huge turn out from Sunnydale
in general. Riley could arrange a military fly-over.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> No funeral Please! -- Avatar 2001, 12:50:47 05/28/01 Mon

A funeral is not called for because that would be the ultimate goodbye and
her death is not final, Joss has already said that she would be coming back
so a true goodbye is the wrong thing to do.

As for the honors and recognition of her accomplishments the inscription on
the gravestone is more than adequate, it tells the world who she was, what
she did and for who she did it for, it represents the respect and love that
the Scoobies have for her an homage from people that did not love her would
not be something Buffy would desire she was always a very honest person she
would despise that type of hypocrisy.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Gift", Joss and Co. = Perfect moments -- curious, 12:00:12 05/27/01 Sun

I know this subject must have been talked to death already, but I just had
to say something about how I felt after this remarkable episode. I've been
trying to get on this board since it aired but final projects and such
prevented me. So even it is never read, I can at least feel that I expressed
my deep appreciation to those brilliant workaholics at the Buffyverse
studios. I do apologize if all this is repetititive, but I really needed to
express my gratitude and delight for this wonderful show.

Just a warning to those who dislike this episode, because the following is
very gushy and completely Pro "The Gift" and stresses a lot of praise for
cinematic techniques.

Where oh where do I begin?

That once in a while, there are individual elements of great beauty each in
themselves that transcends their separate parts when placed together in a
perfect moment of synergy. I tell you, that moment arrived for me and it
happened in "The Gift" and left me not wanting.

I just want you to know where I'm coming from. I'm coming from the
perspective of passion and expression. Film is not only a medium for
recording life. It is also and most often used as a creative medium of
expression. It is the director's canvas to which he paints his vision.
Sometimes this leads me to neglect the writing where I just don't care about
the script as much as I care about the communication. Was the writing
perfect? No. Did the director communicate his passion to me? Yes, on all
accounts that were important.

There are times when you get something that washes away all logical
thoughts, leaving you only to feel and suspend all disbelief. This episode
"the gift" did that to me. From the very moment I saw Giles giving his
favorite little spiel, followed by seeing a young Buffy progressing rapidly
through a hyper speed of this slayer's journey, I knew what I was looking
at. Buffy's visual eulogy. Joss was letting me know upfront and personal
that Buffy was going die, and I felt my stomach knot right there and then.
O.K. I've been expecting this, but seeing it is a whole different thing. I
have to say that this piece of hyper speed editing followed by a real time
return to 29.97 fps, and all in perfect sync to the first real beat of music
was the most effective piece of editing I've seen on television. Not just on
BtVS, but anywhere on television and could easily hold its hold on the big
screen. And that opening dialogue just sent me into even more dread.

Buffy: "Its what I do." (Buffy's resigned fatalism?)
Guy: "But you're just a girl" (so innocent)
Buffy: "That's what I keep saying." (Her wistfully clinging hope to
normality)
Joss was reminding us of Buffy's inner struggles and where her current frame
of mind is. Now my stomach is in knots and my heart starts to sink a little,
and all this before the title credits roll. (I'm cursing advertising left
and right now)

Did anyone else get awfully exited at the unmistakable sounds of that
wonderful genius called Christopher Beck. Man I was so, so happy to hear
him. This episode was going to be great.

The scene in the magic shop was perhaps my least favorite scene of the
episode, but resolved some issues, raised a confrontation and delivered some
well-placed comic moments.

Re: Spike's speech about blood J. "Its always about blood.....makes you hard!"

Still the most important thing I found about this scene was that it made it
very clear where the major players stood. Giles believes in the well being
of many over the well being of one. (Anyone thinking Star Trek?) Buffy makes
it painfully clear that Dawn is her first priority.

I thought Buffy's unfinished expressions were an interesting insight into
her Psyche. When Buffy says "The Monks made her out of me. I hold her and I
feel closer to her than.....(myself?). It's not just the memories they built,
its physical. Dawn is a part of me. The only part that I.....(?like, love?)."

We've seen Buffy go through much insecurity these two seasons. She's lost
herself, her center. She's been overwhelmed by her whole "slayer" deal. To
me, this has been the "big bad" of the season. (since it has been a very
Buffy centric season.) Not Glory. The real demon has been her own inability
to understand her place and her worth as a human being in this world.
Buffy's been acting on her slayer self all year, believing that this is what
is required to win battles, that this is where her strength lies. (I think
she's wrong. But that's a whole other topic) She doesn't know who Buffy is,
and further more, she doesn't appear to have much respect for her human
part. Buffy's unfinished dialogue indicated she believed that Dawn was the
best part of her; just as a parent who looks at a child they conceived and
instinctively think it's the most perfect part of them. If this link is
present that parent becomes fiercely protective and will go to every
possible and sometimes even impossible lengths to ensure that child's
continued existence. You don't want to mess with a mother bear watching over
her cub. Sorry I'm really waffling.

The scene in the gym was really heart wrenching. Giles and Buffy declare how
far they will go to do what each feel is right even if it means that they
oppose each other. Yet they sit quietly and talk to each other about grave
matters. I thought there was a wonderfully mature quality to it. At the
beginning, Buffy didn't really understand the nature of her calling. At the
end of "Becoming 2", she was at a 180. She understood what duty to the cause
meant and sacrificed her one true love to save the world. Here, in the hours
before the granddaddy of all apocalypses, she's come full circle to where
she started. She's faced with an impossible choice and admits that she can't
do the right thing anymore if it meant killing Dawn. So Buffy goes into
battle with a fierce determination to ensure Dawn's survival. She doesn't
fail to do this.

Then to the non-stop action once we reach the scaffold site. I must be
really slow or something because I was actually surprised when Glory kills
the Buffybot. I loved the comic moment when Glory asked if everybody else
knew that the Slayer was a robot. I knew something was out of place and a
bit strange with Buffy, but I didn't suspect the Buffybot. (Methinks Willow
has been doing some reprogramming) Then I realize what made me feel that
way. Joss directed a slightly skewed zoom into the bot and left the scene at
a subtly skewed angle. Very clever. It makes an impression on the
subconscious that there is something unnatural about the scene.

From here on, I've got to say I loved all the action. I'm totally impressed
with Clare Kramer this episode. She actually convinced me she could act.
From the moment Dawn screamed out to Buffy, I felt the urgency of the
situation. Buffy's fierce determination to reach her and Glory equally
determined to stop her from getting to her sister. Kudos to the stunts
people, and to Sarah and Clare who did a lot of their own swinging and
climbing whilst all the time acting convincingly. Once again, the music
score really contributed to the action. I see what Joss meant by
"unfilmable" 100th episode. By the time we get to the grand finale, I was
sitting barely breathing.

And what a finale. For me, it was perfect. Several weeks ago, I think it was
OnM that alerted me to the Roger Ebert phrase about "A perfect moment of
Cinema." Thanks so much for that. It's a great phrase. In fact, if there was
a gypsy curse on film groupies who experience this, my neighborhood would be
very dead by now.

The CG was just COOL, especially for a television show. That dragon was just
priceless. The glowing energy was awesome. As someone who is in pursuit of
doing such work in the future, I just can't pass up praising the special
effects work to bits. I LOVED everything that occurred from here on. SMG's
and MT's remarkable acting and chemistry made the scene so very emotional
and so believable. Those few seconds when "it all became so clear" to Buffy,
were such beautiful moments. That elusive moment of "knowing" that surely we
all search for was so perfectly communicated. Buffy finally understands her
purpose as a slayer and more importantly she understands something about
herself. What her love means, what her her gift really is, what being the
chosen one is all about. I maintain that Buffy does not have a death wish as
Spike announced in FFL. I'm sure she has, on many occasions wanted to just
lay down and not get up, but I don't believe she wants to die. She's weary
and she has a right to be. To my own observance, she has only exhibited a
will to live. She is intensely passionate and is ruled by those passions. I
see Buffy as more heart and spirit than physical slayer strength. The spirit
guide told her that she was "full of love" that it burns brighter than the
fire, and "love would lead her to her gift." Buffy's gift is life. In her
death she left the legacy of life. Her fierce love for Dawn led her to to
the gift as the guide said. I feel that this is really fitting, as I firmly
believe that Buffy has a great reverence for life because she lives on the
sidelines and longs to be part of it. Her insistence on "being normal" is an
expression of this reverence. You might think I'm crazy, but that's how I
see it. To me, this story was never about the doom and gloom of death. It
was about the beautiful gift of life from someone who respected life more
than most.

I'm not sure if I can adequately express that wonderfully crafted scene.
Buffy's quietly reflective look as Chris Beck's music crept in and the wind
strokes their hair. Her calm but heartfelt last look of love and last loving
kiss for Dawn in contrast to Dawn's anguished cries is what elevates this
show from just mere entertainment. There's such passion and artistry to the
making of these scenes that keeps me addicted to this show. But the most
stunning artisty of all was what followed. Buffy's grand moment and grand it
was.

It was perfect, it was stunning, and I was completely consumed by it. Joss
did something that should not be allowed. He turned Buffy's death into a
vision of mesmerizing beauty. How did he do this? It was all those perfect
individual sums. Sarah brilliantly acted what has got to be a blue screen
scene and later composited into CG. Everything about it was breathtaking.
The silent gasps, the wind lashing across those golden tresses against a
current of electrical storm. All the while, against an enthralling score, a
hypnotic voice over and a visual composition that just plain transfixes you.
And as I see that "final gasp" as her head snaps back and a "final look of
peace", I could have wept with joy had I not been so stunned with an
anesthetizing awe. Everything was perfect right down to the white sweater
even. What a creative approach to wrapping up the story. The camera showing
us her last words to Dawn, but not hearing them. The eloquent words then
used as a grammatical part of a whole. Joss did everything right to evoke
all the signifcant senses that enables a viewer to 'experience' an event
rather than just 'watching' it.

I'm convince all these elements were immaculately storyboarded to create an
audio, visual and emotional moment that we wont forget for a long time. I
won't. (Sorry for carrying on like that, I know all this seems really over
the top, but I'm a digital arts, film and video student 3 weeks away from
graduating, so you can understand my crazy exitement I hope.) Then I start
to feel guilty because I'm filled with this wondrous awe at Buffy's death.
Joss really knows how to mess with my head. But in the end, I believe that
this is what Joss wanted to portray, that Buffy's death was beautiful
because her sacrifice was an act of selfless love for Dawn and in doing so,
she also saved the world and the universe. (Huge upgrade from merely saving
the world to coincide with the big 100 J)

To me it was Buffy Summers, the girl, that saved her sister, and the
universe happened to benefit from this act. I don't find this any less noble
either. It doesn't take a cosmic event for heroism to be present. All the
scoobs are heroic, they fight against evil and are willing to sacrifice
themselves for their loved ones. They choose to do this. This makes them
heroic. Buffy, on the otherhand, has always struggled in the shadow of her
slayer self. She thinks it's the slayer part of her that is strong and
heroic. She attributes her success to that being and has hidden behind her
slayerness. That's why I found this a thiumphant end. The girl found her
center. She understood her role and purpose in this life, even if that
purpose included her imminent death and faced it without flinching. In the
end, the girl defined the slayer, not the other way around. I'm so damn
proud. (And I'm making no sense.)

To add to this epiphany, some painfully mature and eloquent last words for
Dawn. Contrast this to "Prophesy Girl" when she said to Jenny,

"Tell him (Giles) that I said.........." Shrugs her shoulders...
"Tell him something cool then tell him I said it." (Something very close to
that)

I must admit that I was shocked at seeing her body. Along with the grave, it
made it so final. I also like the way that Joss took a theatrical approached
to the scene instead of a graphic bloody one. Her body laid in repose in
serenity, and peace fits with the way her death was expressed.
He did the horror and the pain of death with Joyce. He did the opposite with
Buffy. And then of course, Joss, in his infinitely demented mind will even
risk sabotaging this masterpiece by "She saved the world a lot". Can you not
see him sitting at his keyboard just 'daring' you to find it cheesy and
knowing most of us are probably way too numb or way too distraught, for too
emotionally entwined to find it in our hearts to laugh about it.

On that note, Buffy feels dead to me. Even though I know she'll be back next
season, She feels very dead. And I almost wish that Joss would leave her to
her eternal rest after such a beautiful sacrifice. Its how I'd like to
remember her. I can understand what he means when he said that there would
be no cliffhanger, because I really can't seem to see beyond this episode
and I'm content to wait while relishing and savoring a gift that is "The
Gift".

O.K. If by some miracle there is a single soul out there that actually waded
through this, thanks for sticking it out. You have the patience of a saint.
If not, (note to myself here) its been a most cathartic exercise indeed. I'm
going have to spend a whole day just checking out these threads :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: "The Gift", Joss and Co. = Perfect moments -- FanMan, 13:24:43
05/27/01 Sun

Wow!
That was quite a review. I will agree with everything you said.
I cried and felt drawn into the story myself.
I mentioned in another post that I hope people in hollywood can get
inspiration from Joss and improve the general quality of entertainment. It
sounds like you are part of the next generation and you definately are
inspired by Joss! Give me some quality when you are successfull; and I am
speaking for all discerning viewers of media in that.

Curious keep your inspiration of what true cinematic quality is and
incorperate it into your career...and good luck in the workforce!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: "The Gift", Joss and Co. = Perfect moments -- mundusmundi, 13:27:34
05/27/01 Sun

Obviously passion extends not only to filmmaking but to posting boards, b/c
yours is a simply great post. I agree with everything.

First time I saw "The Gift," I was actually a little disappointed, though
now I realize that may have been due to a lingering aftertaste from the
embarrassingly awful double-"Frasier" season finale I'd just finished
watching. (Kinda weird where I live: Buffy is already on a joint UPN-WB
network, and doesn't air until 10 p.m. Tues nights, right after "Frasier"
ended.) Undistracted the second time (and third, fourth, and fifth), I found
"The Gift" remarkable. You conveyed exactly what I was feeling -- that not
every line or scene was perfect, but the *totality* of it was.

Oh, and don't feel bad about the Buffybot: I was fooled too, and laughed at
my own stupidity (smack palm on forehead).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Thank you both so much -- curious, 14:17:01 05/27/01 Sun

for your kind words. Thank you.

>>Give me some quality when you are successfull; and I am speaking for all
discerning viewers of media in that.

:) :) :)

I'm actually more trained for the motion graphics industry, but one can only
dream. But I have to admit to that part in the human psyche that just say,
"dream on". And then I think about what Russell Crowe said in his Oscar
accepting speech to "the little people working out of their small towns."

Frankly I'm terrified at the coming months.

Thanks guys.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> The Body vs The Gift -- Rufus, 16:09:44 05/27/01 Sun

The Body was a very important episode because it made everyone including us
remember how everyday and final death is. As a slayer Buffy has killed an
awful amount of demons but as they turned to dust or we felt they richly
deserved their fate we became jaded to death. The Body reminded everyone how
final and random death can be. Death happens every day. When someone says
the Gift cheapens death because it's been done before I have to think...no
sh*t....it sure does. Death is all around us, ignored until it directly
affects us. When Joyce died, she died the same way many of us will, an
illness that hits unexpectedly. That death was real and Joyce wasn't coming
back. In the Gift we know that Buffy will be back, she is on a journey that
needs to be completed. Death is only part of Buffys journey. So you get a
death that is very unreal when compared to what happened to Joyce. It was
bloodless, perfect, no ambulance or hospital.
I want Buffy back, I don't want her death to be permanent. Buffys journey is
far from over.
Very nice review BTW.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Perfect moments--Thank you, Joss!!! -- SingedCat, 17:13:58 05/27/01 Sun

Curious, stop it with the apologizing. If this board isn't for eloquent
deconstruction of our favorite show, I don't know what it's for. Besides, it
was well-written (as you well know!;-)The more passionately felt, the more
eloquently written. If you feel the urge again, then write! We all love to
partake.
Thank you for clarifying a wonderful experience for me, and for putting into
(not enough!) words the gratitude we on the board feel. I hope it gets back
to Joss and Co, they deserve it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Perfect moments--Thank you, Joss!!! -- Aelith, 18:26:22 05/27/01
Sun

And thank you Curious
Your discription and annalisis has helped me relive what I failed to tape.
You have given words to muddied feelings and made them clear.
Well, except for the music, if it is perfect I don't hear it and I didn't.
"The Gift" felt final to me also but not only because I don't/won't get UPN
but because of the internal logic of the show's premis: The Vampire Slayer
is a teenager, Buffy is no longer a teenager. The thread for this whole
season has been Buffy grows up. Her last sacrafice is a very Adult Human act
of commitment.
The only reason for her return is the unfinished business between Doc and
Dawn which only Spike knows about. She hasn't finished saving Dawn and I
think Willow is going to need some saving also.
I fear that the only way to bring her back in body will be to turn back the
clock. *gastly thought, sorry*

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Perfect moments--Thank you, Joss!!! -- cjc_36, 22:16:25
05/27/01 Sun

No, her job isn't finished because she will become something rarely, if
ever, seen-- the accepting, adult Slayer.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: "The Gift", Joss and Co. = Perfect moments & Storyboarding --
Anthony8, 18:43:39 05/27/01 Sun

Great post Curious. Re: storyboarding--have you checked out the Buffy
Shooting Scripts Site(http://www.mustreadtv.com/buffyscripts/)? It's
interesting to see what stays in and what is taken out of the final shoot
before airtime.

SPOILERS COMING UP DOWN BELOW
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
For example, you mentioned how Buffy's actions and dialogue (in the magic
shop) reflect the emotions of a protective mother. When I brought up a
similar thought in an earlier thread, someone directed me to the fact that,
in the shooting script, Buffy actually states that Dawn is her sister AND
her daughter. When you think of it, leaving out those words in that
particular scene allows our dramatic experience to resolve more forcefully
when Buffy makes her ultimate sacrifice at the end. In the version that
aired, Buffy is not quite able to communicate to the rest of the SG what she
means by Dawn being "a part of her." She is not really certain herself why
she feels this way, but you can see some deeper realization is brewing. At
the end, when she's on the tower with Dawn and, through her memory flashes,
pulls it all together to realize what has to be done, we come to that
realization along with her. Dawn is not just her sister (i.e.-Joyce's
offspring and Buffy's sibling). Dawn, for all intents and purposes, is her
child. Buffy, in a moment of perfect clarity (unconditional parental love
has that effect on people), knows what she must do.

A8

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Great post-- and please let us know when you graduate... -- OnM, 19:25:25
05/27/01 Sun

...and we'll all send out a hardy whoo-hoo! :)

I think when you get a chance to read all the posts (or at least some--
there's been a lot!!) you'll see that your passions are shared by nearly all
of us here. I'm still working on my thoughts, since whenever I start to set
down and write them, I stop here, read some more comments, and pick up still
more insights!

I envy you for working in the field you are... I wish my own talents were
more so in that direction, but 'tis not so. One great thing though,
independent film and video work is slowly but surely making it's way into
the general way of things, with a lot of great talent out there. We all hope
that fortune smiles on you and we'll get to see your work someday soon.

Keep us posted! (Literally, even).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: "The Gift", Joss and Co. = Perfect moments -- cjc_36, 22:12:02
05/27/01 Sun

What a wonderful think piece! I'm serious! You laid out what has been going
through my mind since Tuesday night.

SMG's voice-over last words to Dawn recalled to me the end of ST: II, while
the strains of Amazing Grace on bagpipes, the camera sweeps by the
starfield, then Nimoy's voicover "Space, a Final frontier...."

No death scene has topped this for me in a genre movie/show (death of
Superman comic mini was close) until now.

A perfect moment of personal clarity for Buffy, and perfectly executed by
Joss and everyone who works for him.

SMG's acting in the last scene, especially the voice over to Dawn recalled
to me the best of early Files work from Gillian Anderson. Understated,
powerful and real.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: "The Gift", Joss and Co. = Perfect moments -- change, 04:23:19
05/28/01 Mon

Great post. It's nice to hear from someone who is actually getting into
film. It's amazing how far television and film have come. The CGI effects
obviously much better than anything they had when I was a kid, but that's
just the tip of the iceberg. All of the production values are an order of
magnitude better. The writing, acting, and directing on BtVS are just
incredibly good. BtVS episodes are better than most movies I saw as a kid.

I've got a question on Christopher Beck though. I thought he left BtVS after
Restless. Did he come back?


Where Will They Be? (spoilers and spex) -- mundusmundi, 10:47:44 05/27/01
Sun

Some random thoughts/natterings/speculations....

Where will the characters be at the start of B6? What will they be doing?
Seems like figuring this out will offer clues on what to expect with other
Lingering Issues. Going down the list:

1. Buffy - ??? Yer guess as good as mine.

2. Xander/Anya - prepping for the wedding (most certainly to go disastrously
awry, but that's another plot arc). Anya perhaps also prepping to run the
Magic Shop in Giles's soon-to-be recurring absences.

3. Willow/Tara - school/spells.

4. Giles - prepping to return to England. (Poor sod. What's an ex-Watcher to
do?)

5. Dawn - the heart of the matter. Perhaps in a foster center or with foster
parents.

6. Spike - perhaps drunk and disheveled at his loss (dig the flask), but
also watching over Dawn from a distance.

Could be way off on this, but I see Dawn's isolation from the group as the
key (erm, not *The Key*) to the season premiere. Assuming Buffy is really
gone -- and I agree there was something dreamlike about that tombstone shot,
but still, as the Spirit Guide told her, "Death is your gift," not "Coma is
your gift" --and assuming none of the Scoobies will adopt her -- again, an
interesting idea, but I don't see it happening -- there seems no other
alternative than to have Dawn as an orphan. This would also unfortunately
offer the opportunity for some cheap shots on orphanages and/or foster
parents, using them as the monster element. (Pray this isn't the musical
episode, with Dawn singing "Tomorrow.") Still, it could work dramatically.

One other intriguing thing somebody mentioned in another post, and which was
in the shooting script of "The Gift" but deleted, was Buffy's line about
Dawn being "my sister and my daughter" (weirdly echoes a line from
*Chinatown,* but never mind). Maybe Joss just found it too weird to include.
Or, mebbee it's something he wants to pick up on next year. In any case, it
could tie in to the aforementioned spex above - unless it's all wrong! :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Where Will They Be? (spoilers and spex) -- curious, 14:04:52 05/27/01
Sun

O.K. after my brain exploded with painfully long and serious thoughts in the
previous post. I can only come up with this.

Willow and Tara:

After much sabotage by the WB executives, they manage to steal Willow and
Tara away from Joss to star in their very own spin-off "Charmed once more".
Their combined magic have conjured up an entire Country called Willosia of
which the capital is Taraville, the seat of the Wiccan community. In memory
of their beloved friend, the official language is Buffonian, so an updated
dictionary is a must. They have a 5 year contract and a central arc to derat
Amy.

Giles:

After a painful recovery, Giles can no longer stand to be in Sunnydale with
his memories. His magic store is suddenly very successful and becomes a
Franchise. He bequeaths the one in Sunnydale to Dawn, sells the Franchise
and returns to England to start an optical outlet that specializes in extra
strong glasses. Their by line is, "Our glasses never scratch no matter how
much you polish them and our frames are unbendable."

Ayna and Xander:

They get married on his 21st Birthday over the Summer and get custody of
Dawn. Ayna is the manger of the Dawn's business as well as vice president of
a new business that she and Xander started. They manufacture Bulldozers with
the strength to knock down extra large buildings and gods. During the
Summer, Xander finds a new kid on the block who looks extremely like Buffy
and brings her home. The new kid has no idea who she is or where the heck
she came from and is completely clueless about life. Ayna is delighted that
she is no longer the newest and most clueless person around so takes the new
kid under her wing and teaches her how to deal with life starting with Ayna
101. Xander is appalled and is constantly shaking his head but bites his
tongue because Ayna is damn good at making money. Dawn is delighted that she
gets to boss this new kid around. Xander builds them a prefabricated tree
house. They are quite the happy family.

Spike:

Spike after a tearful farewell to his favorite slayer goes off to Tibet to
find a cure for his Vampism. Oz previously clued him in on it while they
planned revenge on the initiative. He promises Dawn he will be back to tell
her really good Asian ghost stories with lots of blood and guts.

Buffy:

Whom the God of the Buffyverse is well pleased with has decreed her destiny
free. She gets the equivalent of ocean front property in heaven, lives with
Joyce who is making up for her previous neglect by mothering Buffy to a
second death. God also likes to shower her with gifts of which her favorites
are her Angel and Spike dolls. She alternates her days between polishing her
many pairs of slayer boots (which leads to other fashion accessory problems)
and playing with her Angel and Spike dolls. Meanwhile, here on Earth, Angel
and Spike are wondering why they do the things they do.

And don't take me in the least bit seriously. I just being silly.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Where Will They Be? (spoilers and spex) -- mundusmundi, 14:45:28
05/27/01 Sun

Your post gave me more laughs than anything recently on "Frasier." :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Very wicked and funny - I needed a mental hug - Many thanks --
Brian, 17:40:41 05/27/01 Sun

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: Very wicked and funny - I needed a mental hug - Many thanks --
Nina, 17:59:23 05/27/01 Sun

I second that!!! It was an incredible good laugh! I needed it! Thanks! :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> LMAO !!!!!!!!!!! -- Avatar 2001, 12:55:17 05/28/01 Mon

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Where Will They Be? (spoilers and spex) -- Jessica, 14:11:37 05/27/01
Sun

Dawn might be in foster care next year and be angry at the rest of the
scoobies for not taking care of her or heaven at Buffy for leaving her and
when Buffy comes back, it might not be a great reunion at first, or Buffy
might be angry at the scoobies for not taking care of Dawn.

Another possibility, is Hank Summers is back and he is taking care of Dawn
in Sunnydale or he wants to take her away and the scoobies want to object
but can't and just before they live Buffy just happens to come back and she
fights with her father for custody and as to tell him where Dawn comes from
and that she's almost like her daughter and that she is the slayer.

Another possibility, Spike takes care of Dawn and moved in the Summers
house. Can you imagine the possibilities and the conflict he could have with
the rest of the scoobies. Plus when Buffy comes back what a shock.

Other possibilities, Buffy comes back but she as amnesia or she is crazy or
she is darker.

Will just have to wait and see, I'm sure that Joss will surprise all of us.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: Where Will They Be? (spoilers and spex) -- mundusmundi, 14:57:31
05/27/01 Sun

I agree that Hank will figure bigtime next season. They've been
foreshadowing him all year, much as they did the Mayor in B2, and it
wouldn't surprise me if he emerges as a Big Bad of some kind. (Lord knows,
as Masq points out on her site, Joss has issues with daddys.) I would be
surprised if he popped up in the first episode. Joss likes to tease us,
string us along, and there seems to be plenty already to deal with over 2
hours. (No stretch to say I do expect the Buffster back, more or less, by
the end of ep. 1.)

It's highly improbable, but I do enjoy the image of Spike trying to put one
over on the neighbors as "Uncle Willie", reading the paper, smoking a pipe
and wearing an ascot. More likely, I suspect he'll be both devoted and
distraught, and initially at a distance.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: A Watcher for Dawn -- darrenK, 17:20:37 05/27/01 Sun

Joss has good fun with puns.

Back in Restless--during one of the dream sequences--Giles and Spike are
swinging on a swingset, both wearing Watcher's uniforms.

Now, I would NEVER suggest that Spike will LITERALLY become a watcher, I
think the interpretation is open for Spike to become Dawn's metaphoric
"watcher," her babysitter, minder or keeper.

This would actually have the kind of symmetry that Joss loves. How ironic a
vamp caring for Dawn.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Giles doesn't become Dawn's guardian
and take up residence in the Summer's house with Spike, Willow and Tara. It
will be a parody of Full House and leave plenty of room for lack of
privacy/sanity humor.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: The way I see it... -- Nina, 18:17:32 05/27/01 Sun

Buffy:
I think that Buffy won't be darker, but lighter. Full of love. Full of her
experience. She sacrificed herself for love. I really don't see her coming
back with a dark side. That look of peace she had before she jumped showed
us the Buffy I'm yearning to see. I hope we will see more of her that way.

Dawn/Spike:
Somehow I image them mirroring their grief. They might cling together after
Buffy's death. I think Dawn will have more weird behaviors too. She started
stealing hearings when her mother died, what will she do now? Maybe she will
be caught by Spike and he'll tell her to stop stealing stuff. She'll say
that he steals so she can steal too and who knows maybe they will both work
on their stealing issues! (Gee that sounds terribly like a bad soap!) She
will probably be very guilty too, other particularity she will share with
Spike. Basically I see them becoming very close and the watcher prediction
being reinforce by him taking care of her. Hank coming back would be
interesting. We need more male figures on the show!

Willow/Tara:
The gap between their abilities may be a problem. Willow is very powerful
and Tara is far behind. How will she cope with that? Will it be like
Buffy/Riley? Or will they overcome the difference? I don't have a clue to be
sincere.

Anya/Xander:
I don't see a wedding too soon. He proposed, let them be engaged for awhile.
I do see Anya taking up the shop. I see Xander working very much on
construction sites (the city was destroyed a lot during "The gift")

Giles:
I don't think he'll move to England. The actor does, but I don't think Giles
will. He might just be a lot more distant. Maybe he'll sell the shop to
Anya. I see a darker Giles next year. He had to kill to protect the
humanity. He lost his slayer. Think about "Dark age". That's what I see for
him. (I hope I am wrong though)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: A Watcher for Dawn -- verdantheart, 07:30:40 05/29/01 Tue

I thought that the Spike as Watcher sequence may have forshadowed his
stalking behavior, although it may forshadow more than that.

- vh

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: A Watcher for Dawn -- Nina, 09:58:37 05/29/01 Tue

I think there's something there not only because Spike said he'd watch for
Dawn but because the staging in "The Gift" was pretty clear. Between the end
of "tWotW" and "The Gift" the SG and Giles have changed seats. Spike is
right behind Giles. When Giles backs away and says that they will all die if
Buffy doesn't kill Dawn, Spike who was sitting behind like a back up now
faces Buffy. Those are little details. But if it wasn't important everyone
would have kept the same seat they had in "tWotW".

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: Where Will They Be? (spoilers and spex) -- Mishka, 12:59:41 05/28/01
Mon

I don`t know guys, but it seems fair to say that it will be up to Angel to
ressurrect Buffy. As he did with Darla (I forget which episode) he could go
through those three tests to bring her back.
I think Spike and Angel will come to the same sort of understanding that
Spike and Riley came too. There is only and will only, every be one true
love for Buffy, and that is Angel. The only reason he isn`t human right now
is because the PTB said that there will come a time when she will die
because he isn`t strong enough to save her.
I don`t see Dawn in foster care though. I think Spike truly sees her as a
kid sister and will be constantly watching out for her secretly, like a
childs imaginary friend. Spike is just cool. When all else go mushy and
whiny, he brings us back with quick wit and ruthlessness. Although there is
the potential for Mr.Summers to return and disturb things.
I miss Oz. And Doyle. I hope they somehow visit us in Season 6. Also I hope
there is more plot line with Cordy`s pet ghost. (aside)
I don`t see Tara and Willow lasting. They are too much alike. Relationships
like that get boring. They`ll drive each other crazy with sweetness and cool
teen-speak. (they`ve been driving me nuts for awhile) Or maybe if Tara could
just get a little less wussy and needy, it wouldn`t be so bad.
Maybe Faith will have to step in to help the team somehow, you never know.
Without a slayer in town, its only a matter of time before Armageddon number
7 comes around. Although I really like that Willow is getting Uber-powerful.
I think Xander should join martial arts or something, maybe Spike could
train him for awhile, I think its time, especially without Buffy not being
around. Anya`s spunky, she`d probably be better at it. I`m sure Giles can
figure out a way to keep Dawn with them, if all else fails. She still is
super human after-all and there are many other baddies that would probably
kill/use her for some reason.
Just some musings...
p.s. why isn't Giles going to be around next season, I missed the reason?


The importance of Buffy's clothes -- Kerri, 14:39:45 05/27/01 Sun

I just rewatched "The Gift" and I noticed how important what Buffy is
wearing is.

In the first scene she wears a white top with black under it. She's Buffy
the girl trying to hide the darkness inside.

Then when Buffy is training she is wearing all black. She's in a dark place,
unsure of her calling and unsure about life. I loved how when she gave the
speach to Giles about everything being stripped away she was surrounded by
all black, all the pain inher life. In this scene Buffy also states how
she's only a killer. Black representing the slayer.

The in the last scene Buffy is in white. Her human half. Her purity and
innocence. Buffy was delivered from her uncertainty by her human half, by
her complete, unconditional love for Dawn. Buffy is wearing all white when
she dies. It is her human half that wins in the end. Her human half that
saves Dawn. Her human half that embraces death as her gift, as an expression
of love, of life.

Buffy dies, and a new day dawns, darkness turns to light. She understands.
She loves. And through her death gives life.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: The importance of Buffy's clothes -- jc, 15:30:51 05/27/01 Sun

Also in the EP. "WOTW"

In Buffy's mind there were two of her.
1) Buffy in a black top w/ pants, and her hair was in a pony tail.
2) Buffy in earth tones w/ a skirt, and her hair down.

To me the one that was at the shelf returning the book. The one that for a
fraction of a second thought, and felt knew she would lose to Glory. Was the
"Human" buffy. Whereas the "Slayer" aspect was the one standing next to
Willow. Also note that the number 1 Buffy was the aspect that in Buffy's
mind. Killed her sister. Also the one that stated "Death is my Gift."

I agree with you that her clothes have some symbolism. I also think the way
her hair is done has some symbolism as well.

Also, there is the cycle about.

BIRTH - DEATH - REBIRTH going on in "TG"

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: The importance of Buffy's clothes -- Sebastian, 18:47:55 05/27/01
Sun

I've always thought there was always a lot of significance in Buffy's
clothes this past season.

The three episodes that stand out the most was "Buffy vs. Dracula," "The
Weight of the World" and "The Gift." The latter two episodes are higlighted
in the above messages - but in "B vs, D" - her style of clothing and
hairstyle very much made me think of Faith. The leather pants, the flowing
(and somewhat wild looking) semi-curly hair she sported made me think of
Faith's look during the apex of Season Three ("Bad Girls", "Consequences",
etc....)

Frivolous...but just a thought. ;-)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: The importance of Buffy's clothes -- Talia, 20:34:48 05/27/01
Sun

"In "B vs, D" - her style of clothing and hairstyle very much made me think
of Faith. The leather pants, the flowing (and somewhat wild looking)
semi-curly hair she sported made me think of Faith's look during the apex of
Season Three ("Bad Girls", "Consequences", etc....)"

As others have pointed out, in Sunnydale usually leather pants=evil.

Just my two cents.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: The importance of Buffy's clothes -- Bellagracelyn, 20:47:21
05/27/01 Sun

I noticed Buffy's hair found its way more and more in a ponytail and usually
a haphazard bun-like one. It reminded me of the Buffy in 'Dopplegangland'
the alternate universe where Cordelia wished Buffy never came to Sunnydale.
That Buffy was all Slayer, and her hair was done up in a tight braid,
appearances the last of her concerns.
This season, her wardrobe became more 'classic' and less trendy. She still
wore leather, but instead of wearing tight little tanks to patrol like she
used to, she would pair up leather pants with a t-shirt or loose sweater.
She gave up flashy colors and sparkly designs for earth tones and cleaner
lines. I think the brightest color she wore all season was the red sweater
in The Body.
Also, in the episode before Restless, where the gang blended their spirits
and contacted the 1st slayer, Buffy also wore a white sweater like in The
Gift. At the end of Restless, Buffy's season five ponytail made its debut.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: The importance of Buffy's clothes -- Shiver, 10:28:14
05/28/01 Mon

Remember also that Buffy is "growing up". No longer the slave to high school
fashion, she dresses now more like an early 20-something. Still trendy,
college-student but on occasion also very practical, businesslike, even
mom-like. When she goes to school with Dawn after Joyce's death, when she is
folding laundry later at the house. The clothing and hair changes reflect
the transition in Buffy's life to adulthood as well.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The importance of Buffy's clothes -- LoriAnn, 14:32:10
05/28/01 Mon

Very important as well, her clothes keep her from getting arrested for
indecent exposure. We have to look at things from a practical viewpoint
also.


BtVS: A musical appreciation of Season 5 -- Nina, 09:35:28 05/28/01 Mon

Well the season is over now and I am finally able to write this thread. I
know that some of you like OnM and Curious are very good to analyse the
cinematic aspect of the show, being a musician I'll try to give my two cents
on the music this year. In order to analyse the musical material I rewatched
all the episodes (minus episode 1&2 as I don't have them on tape). I would
have liked to do a thorough analysis of the themes, intruments, harmony,
etc... but well, I might just sound very technical in the end and I would need
many more screening to do so anyway, so I'll keep it as simple as possible.
Even though I graduated in music 5 years ago, I am certainely not an
authority and this thread is merely intended to calm an itch I had for many
months! I hope you enjoy and are not too afraid by its length. Skim through
it otherwise! ;)

From what I've heard here and there, many people didn't like the score this
year. But also many people complained about the new stunt coordinator, the
new body double for SMG, the new love interest for Buffy (be it Riley in S4
or Spike in S5), the new Big Bad for the season. A lot of people complain...
but how accurate is it music wise? Thomas Wanker's replacement of Christophe
Beck is almost like Riley's replacement of Angel as a love interest for
Buffy. We want security, someone we know. Someone we trust. We're used to
having him around and anyone who will try to fill his shoes will have a hard
time.

Music composer: Thomas Wanker

Personally I am torn between liking and not liking the music material TW
gave us this year. Some of it was just wonderful and some of it just got on
my nerves. I'm willing to bet that the real problem behind all this is
money. Never before did a composer on Buffy had to recycle music ideas like
that. Never before did we get so few real solo instruments (we used to have
plenty before, think about the B/A love's theme flute solo in Innocence or
the Paganini-like violin solo in BB&B, the cello solo in GD2 when Angel
leaves...). I really suspect that Thomas Wanker was on tight schedule and
didn't get the same kind of money for the music department. Why would I say
that? Three words: Fool for love. The music in that episode was fantastic. A
guy that can work miracles like that in so little time is obviously
restrained when he has to recycle stuff. I also believe that JW wouldn't
have accepted recycled stuff if he knew it could be otherwise. Same thing
goes for the special effects department by the way (the snake in "Shadow",
the Ghora demon in "Forever" were cheesy - the money was clearly lacking).
All the money seem to have been stored away to pay for the finale. I am
happy that Christophe Beck scored the episode, but I really suspect
something under it. If someone knows why CB left the show in the first place
it could help me understand better. Anyway...

Season five: theme

Season five is about darkness. Darkness before dawn. Exploring identities.
Nothing to do with the lightness (I mean the innocence of the characters) we
saw in early season 1, 2 and 3 (even 4). Emotionally the characters explore
darker regions of themselves and the music follows. In previous seasons, the
woodwinds (flute-oboe-clarinet) used to characterize the lightness. They
were still young and even though they had their share of pain, they still
were innocent and young. This year we get a lot of darker intruments (brass
/ cellos and bass). Many scenes are established with the background use of
horns and trombones. The general music ambiance is following the characters.

Bad stuff

As I want to finish on a possitive note I'll start with the bad stuff:
Recycled material. Mostly if you take some time to listen to the music in
the fight scenes you'll notice two musical themes. Two! For the whole
season!!!!!!!! That's what gets on my nerves everytime there's a fight
scene. The first theme is what I'll call "Battle theme". You can recognize
it everywhere. Some hints? You get the long version in "Crush" in the last
battle between Spike, Harmony, Dru and Buffy. If you pay a little attention
you'll see that everytime there's a fight scene that's the same music. The
second fight theme is what I will call "Glory's battle theme". Usually used
when Glory is fighting with the SG. Now sometimes Glory's battle theme is
used elsewhere and it just gets confusing (like in IWMtLY when Buffy fights
April). There are some exceptions though, the fight scenes in OomM, the
fight with the knights on the RV in Spiral (though it is intertwined with
Glory's battle theme). Those are what I call lucky breaks. New scores. In
Spiral I was happy with that fight scene just because the music was new!
(though I suspect it was recycled from a fight scene between Buffy and Faith
in GD1)

Stuff I loved

Apart from the recycled stuff that I'll blame on a lack of money, there are
so many wonderful details to be noticed this year. One is the use of the
minor third. Technically the minor third is a three notes interval. As for
example, in a C scale the notes would be C-D-Eb (do-re-mib). This motive is
very important. It is used constantly throughout the season. Many of the
themes are built with the minor third as a central core. The fact that it's
minor mirrors the darker sides of the season (a Major third would be too
light and playful) and the choice of the third is great as we get a lot of
triangles this year (Buffy-Spike-Riley/ Xander-Anya-Willow/ Dawn-Glory-Ben/
Spike-Buffy-Dawn...) 3 is even in 7-3-0! Okay here I disgress... In the
beginning of the season that minor third was established plainely, alone.
Three notes one after the other so we could recognize it, get use to it. As
things progress we hear more themes issue from that interval, but we don't
get to hear the minor third alone anymore. Examples of minor thirds?
In OomM: When Riley and Buffy arrive at the hospital (when they go see
Joyce) and when Riley and Buffy leave Joyce's room a little later. In NPLH,
we hear the minor third just before Buffy discovers Spike behind the three.
It is often hidden everywhere. We just have to be careful to hear it.

In NPLH, the use of electro accoustic music during Buffy's spell is
wonderful. Electro accoustic is a way to use sound and distort it, make it
musical. The texture is more important then the melody. I just love how it
distorts the atmosphere around Buffy.

In Fool for Love, there are so many wonderful details. All new material
(Yay!!!) Great fight scenes music. The violin solo (one of the few solos
this season) we hear when we first discover William in 1880 is pure genius.
The music says everything. First of all it shows that William doesn't fit
with his peers. In 1880 people played piano in social circles and that kind
of dance we hear on the violin was an oddity for his era (at least 100 years
old - circa 1780). The violin is light like William used to be (compared to
dark Spike). Once William moves to meet his peers, the violin stops. Great
way to describe his inner world. Later in that episode there's the use of a
chorus singing "Misere Mei"(God have mercy on me) when Spike jumps over a
barrel during the Boxer Rebellion. The cinematography in this short scene is
beautiful, but that's the music that gets me everytime. Then there's the use
of the flute during the rebellion and the use of the celesta (a kind of mini
piano that sounds two octaves higher) when Spike just kills his second
slayer and stands up in the subway. That eerie touch of lightness in a dark
moment is chilling! Then the use of the cello when Buffy tells Spike "You're
beneath me". A great contrast to the violin we heard earlier. A darker
version of William.

In "Triangle" I just love the use of the marimba (family of the xylophone
but made out of wood) during the interview scene. That made the scene look
funnier. A very nice touch!

In "Crush" The use of the celesta again when Drusilla appears for the fist
time and when Spike tells Dawn a story. Very chilling. Great contrast
between darkness and light.

In "Intervention", one of the greatest voice solo during Buffy's walk in the
desert. Not unlike a part of Vivaldi's "Stabat Mater" (with an arabic touch)

Love themes and other themes

Riley/Buffy love theme. In the watcher's guide, Christophe Beck said that he
didn't have a lot of time to come up with something for "Hush". Joss wanted
something romantic. CB didn't know a lot about the relationship and where it
was going and did something cute. Not as passionate as B/A love theme but
sweet. Now the use of that theme in season five is just great. Everytime we
hear it we have a hint that this relationship is going awry and that it will
explode one day or the other. The first time we hear it in season 5 is in
OomM in the initiative caves when Riley says "loving you is the scariest
thing I have ever done Buffy" (just a little hint, a few notes of that
theme, but still recognizable). We hear it again later when he says "I'll be
fine" and Buffy kisses him to leave him immediately after. In ItW the theme
begins right after their lovemaking session when Buffy rolls away from
Riley. Again later in the training room when he says "I'm leaving Buffy
unless you give me a reason to stay" and finally when he leaves in the
chopter. For the final break-up TW uses brass instruments (horn-
trombones-tuba). Very pathetic. A good contrast to the use of strings in B2
when Buffy sends Angel to hell.

There's no Buffy/Spike love theme, but one theme strikes me as being a
Buffy/Spike descent to the inferno theme. That's the piano theme we hear at
the end of Fool for love when Spike and Buffy are sitting on the porch. The
theme is built with descending thirds. Something like Eb-C/D-Bb/ C (mib-do/
re-sib/ do) The core material being the famous Eb-D-C (reverse position for
what we got earlier C-D-Eb). They are both going down, descending into
themselves. We also hear that theme in OomM after Buffy says to Riley "If I
wanted superpowers I'd be dating Spike". We hear it a third time during Dawn
and Buffy's scene in Triangle (in Buffy's bedroom). Buffy says "it will all
be better soon" and we cut to Spike in his crypt. Those words are ironically
chilling as we all know that nothing is going to be better and that the
descent to inferno will continue until it reaches bottom in "Crush".

B/A love theme. In "Forever" there's a little piano reminescence of that
theme when Angel and Buffy kiss. I might say something false (I haven't seen
all season 3) so if I am wrong just tell me! From what I have seen in season
3 the B/A theme doesn't come back. There are other themes, other music
material between them. When Angel leaves in GD2 there's a cello solo (almost
foreshadowing AtS's opening credits theme) not the B/A theme. So maybe
that's why I feel that when the theme came up in the "Forever" episode, it
looked like a projection of the Angel Buffy remembered. The kind of love
they used to have in "Innocence" (when the theme first appeared) It wasn't
the Angel of season 3 she was kissing, but the lost love of season 2, the
one she sent to hell. Well my POV. Please beg to differ! : )

Tara/Willow love theme. Appears two times in "Tough Love" (I just wish it
would have come back when Willow cures Tara in "The gift"- it would have
made more unity) We hear that theme just after Willow and Tara's fight, when
Tara is at the fair and later when Willow feeds Tara with a spoon. Very
romantic theme. Personally I liked it a lot, especially when we saw the
dragon in the park. Great contrast between hapiness and grief.

Christophe Beck and "The Gift".

First thing first. The music in that episode was wonderful. I don't know why
CB came back but I loved what he did. The only problem I have is that it
doesn't fit with the rest of the season. The use of woodwinds was great but
it felt off to me compared to the darker music we got this year. As a stand
alone episode it was perfect. As an episode part of a continuity it didn't
fit at all. That's one of the problem I have with the choice to give a
single episode to another composer (to me it's as if Ben had been recast for
the last episode and replaced by a better actor). Did JW and TW didn't get
along? Did TW really was bad (but then why did he gave us so many beautiful
things if he was that bad). I just have a problem to see that JW ditched his
composer to replace him for the finale. Something behind that move smells
bad to me. As I mentioned earlier if anyone knows anything about the behind
the scenes concerning the music composer switch I'd love to know. I
personally think that CB is a better composer. There's a lot more intensity
and sensitivity, but it's the switch that bugs me! The lack of unity!

Beck proposed a completely different approche to the music material. He
ditched the minor third (sniff for me... I was waiting for some kind of climax
in that area. A wrapping for all the musical ideas of the season) and
replaced it by the fifth and the seventh. The theme we hear when Buffy jumps
to her death has been established very slowly. Two notes at first during the
magic box scene (in a C scale it would be C-G (do-sol)), then we hear it
often with horns and trombones everytime we see the tower. The final theme
appears when Buffy and Dawn are on the tower. The fifth expends to a
seventh. We now get C-G-Bb (do-sol-sib). Lots of tension there.

I know how you loved the 7-3-0 speculations OnM, so here is mine for you. We
got the 3 all season (third), we got the 7 in the last episode (seventh),
and we got the 0 as the last note of the episode (unisson- not an interval
as every instrument plays the same note). That last note sounds like a
delivrance. So many episodes finished with an harmonic ambiguity (it makes
us fidgety, waiting for more) and we finally got the final gasp, the look of
peace and the harmonic resolution!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: BtVS: A musical appreciation of Season 5 -- Jen C., 18:56:58 05/28/01
Mon

All I can say is WOW! I have to go back and watch my tapes now! Great post!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Bravissimo! Many thanks for this :) -- OnM, 20:58:02 05/29/01 Tue

Whew, long day today, just got home a little while ago (10:45 EST), but
while dinner was a'heatin', I got out my printout of your post and read thru
it. I was so happy to see you get to do this for us, it's a great topic and
really hasn't been covered by anyone else so far that I can recall (at least
not in detail).

As I mentioned previously, while I have always had a great love of music, I
am not a musician, so you are right in that some of the technical aspects
escape me. This doesn't matter though, I have had a continuous subscription
to _Scientific American_ magazine since about 1971. Most of the articles
written therein are 'above my head', but if they looked interesting I read
'em anyway, picked up what I could, which was always something. Over time,
you can learn a surprising amount of stuff by hanging around people who have
knowledge in areas that you do not, or that you have only a peripheral
interest in.

I think it's a shame when people restrict their creative thinking to the
most narrow of fields, typically only the one that directly generates income
for them. So many areas of knowledge overlap, that knowing one inevitably
helps you gain access to knowing others.

One addition I would like to ask for your input on... could you deconstruct
the opening themes to BtVS and Angel? They are both really striking, I
think, and seem to sum up the overall emotive 'feel' of the two shows
extremely well.

I just 'sense' this when I hear them, but I would like to know *why* from a
technical, musical standpoint. What do you think?

Thanks again, great post! :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: I'll check for the opening themes! -- Nina, 09:56:59 05/30/01 Wed

I so agree with you OnM! We have to try to do our best to be open to things
we don't know or don't comprehend right away. I do believe that the best way
to learn is to assimilate them slowly without trying to force it. I know
that I learned philosophy 10 years ago. Gee, I had 9 hours of philosophy a
week! I love this board because even though I have forgotten almost all of
it, I get the chance to slowly remember what I learned so painfully at the
time. I finally get the chance to find a use for it! :)

Bad for me if the music appreciation still sounded too "technical"! I'll try
to come with something about the opening credit music (and keep it simple!).
As I already said the use of the cello when Angel is leaving in GD2 really
hit me when I realized that it's what they use for AtS theme! I'm sure it
was used on purpose.

I'm currently supposed to look for work (and not be here!) so it may take a
little while, but I'll post it as soon as it's ready! :)


THE CHIP!! -- cknight, 10:31:10 05/28/01 Mon

I would love to see Spike and Buffy hook up, but it would be really interesting to see what would happen if the chip in Spikes head is removed. Has he really grown beyond a being a killer or would he revert to his old self.

I also think that the chip must be removed before Buffy would really have anything to do with him in terms of romance.

Maybe vampires aren't souless, maybe the soul is just held captive in the body while the demon controls the body. Maybe in Spike, the chip controls the demon allowing the captive human spirit a chance to revive and regain control of the body?

I think the chip gives the character of Spike a chance to be the most interesting vamp in the Buffy World.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> I think my antihistamine kicked in........... -- Rufus, 14:14:06 05/28/01 Mon

I read your post as you wanted Buffy and Spike together and you wanted his head removed. I shook my own head wondering what that would do to any further small talk they may have.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: THE CHIP!! -- Joann, 14:24:42 05/28/01 Mon

I guess you meant the chip and not the head. I agree Spike would be the most interesting player on the show if he got more air time. I believe The Slayer is dark enough to be attracted to Spike. But I would like to see Spike stay true to his code. He would never mate with the enemy. I just think he would use her and leave her when he came to his vampire senses.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: THE CHIP!! -- darrenK, 16:29:50 05/28/01 Mon

In a previous thread I posted this quote from Season 2

"Spike, my boy, to kill this slayer you have to love her..." ---Angelus to Spike

But, I have to say that I believe the writers have been working on Spike's redemption for too long to go back to the ambiguity there was before. Spike is now a good guy.

dK

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: THE CHIP!! -- Sam Raimond, 18:56:06 05/28/01 Mon

Not only is he a good guy now, they were able to make a Vamp a good guy without giving him a soul and repeating the whole Angel thing. they devserve points just for that.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: THE CHIP!! -- Joann, 19:12:12 05/28/01 Mon

All this soulful feeling for the Slayer is just a result of the chip. Let's de-chip him and then see what takes place. Wouldn't that be something to see -- if Spike's plan was "to kill this girl you have to love her." Ummm...that gives me *good* chills...because it reminds me too of Angelus.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> If The Host can be bodyless, why can't Spike be headless? :) -- rowan, 20:05:23 06/04/01 Mon

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> What? and miss out on all those bon mots? -- verdantheart, 08:31:12 06/06/01 Wed

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> The Option of Chip Removal and Spike's Redemption -- Jarrod Harmier, 13:22:25 06/03/01 Sun

People have said that the Spike's chip takes away his ability to choose. This is probably accurate if you talk about his capacity for violence. I do think next season he should be given the option of having his chip removed. However, I think it is important that none of the Scoobies know that Spike has this option because of what I think should happen. This chip removal would be a real option, not like the fake chip removal that occured in "Out of My Mind". This is a very tempting offer for Spike. However, several questions enter his mind: "Will I be the same?", "Will I go back to being to feeding humans", and, the most important one, "Will I still love Buffy?" He has an offer that appears to be everything he could ever hope for and then realizes it is not what he needs. He refuses to have it removed. When he has the option to tell the group that he had the option and refused it, he doesn't. These actions taken together would be integral in his path to redemption because they show that has built character far beyond just keeping a promise.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: The Option of Chip Removal and Spike's Redemption -- cknight, 17:35:18 06/03/01 Sun

I agree with you on most points...but I think Spike should face all those questions and decide to remove the chip. Through the mental conditioning of chip and his discovering some personal control, it would be cool if he stayed on his path to semi goodness without the chip.

He must lose the chip on his journey. I also think it would be interesting if Spike started to feed on the demons he defeats, perhaps gaining more personal power from their blood

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: The Option of Chip Removal and Spike's Redemption -- Aquitaine, 18:50:52 06/03/01 Sun

*** However, several questions enter his mind: "Will I be the same?", "Will I go back to being to feeding humans", and, the most important one, "Will I still love Buffy?" ***

As to that last question, I think that Drusilla's words to Spike in FFL (circa 1998) show that Spike loved Buffy pre-chip. I think that little snippet was inserted precisely to establish this fact.

Needless to say, I too think the chip needs to come out before anything can happen between Spike and Buffy.

Jeez... It's so hard talking about these things when Buffy is DEAD! LOL. How absurd!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: The Option of Chip Removal and Spike's Redemption -- rowan, 20:14:36 06/04/01 Mon

"As to that last question, I think that Drusilla's words to Spike in FFL (circa 1998) show that Spike loved Buffy pre-chip. I think that little snippet was inserted precisely to establish this fact."

I too, admired this little insertion into the past via a current episode. Quite clever!

"Needless to say, I too think the chip needs to come out before anything can happen between Spike and Buffy."

Won't Buffy be scared spitless if the chip is out? Or rather, won't she be back in Distrust City, expecting Spike to turn at any moment? Although, it could make the sex kind of hot -- that thrill of danger -- will he or won't he? I'd be afraid to let him kiss my throat, though!;)

In the back of my mind, I visualize a scenario where Spike is kidnapped by Drusilla, who intends to remove the chip. Buffy and the SG come to rescue Spike (although the SG are quite adamant that if the chip is out, Spike must be staked). They arrive, but it's too late -- Spike is unconscious, and the chip is out. Buffy stakes Dru and rescues Spike (much to the dismay of the SG, who want him staked as a preventive measure). Buffy has now as good as declared her feelings for Spike to the SG.

When Spike awakens, only Buffy is there. Spike asks if the chip is out. Buffy confirms it. Spike then asks (with bitterness) if Buffy will now stake him. Buffy responds with a question: Angel was not willing to fight for their love; he gave in to Angelus. Is Spike willing to fight for them? Spike's answer is: yes. Fade to black.

You can now see why I don't write for TV for a living. This is too derivative of Intervention (although I kind of like the symmetry). But it might make a nice fanfic.

"Jeez... It's so hard talking about these things when Buffy is DEAD! LOL. How absurd!"

Well, it is Spike, after all. Are we sure necrophilia is totally out of his picture? ;)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Um....yeah....and ewwwwwwwwwwwwww........:):):):):):) -- Rufus, 20:35:57 06/04/01 Mon

I do remember saying that we sould get Buffy breathing before we send her on a date. How about we let rotting corpses stay where they are and wait for the shiny new model in the new season. The thought of a love scene with Spike and a Buffy that is shedding rotting body parts is way worse than robot love......:):):):)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Weird love is better than no love.... -- rowan, 21:02:34 06/04/01 Mon

If I can eke out a small bit of disgusting humor in every thread, my work here is done.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> Re: The Option of Chip Removal and Spike's Redemption -- Countess Karnstein, 06:48:29 06/05/01 Tue

"As to that last question, I think that Drusilla's words to Spike in FFL (circa 1998) show that Spike loved Buffy pre-chip. I think that little snippet was inserted precisely to establish this fact."

Guys - It's precisely because that scene was inserted way, way after the fact (S2) that I don't buy it. It screamed "revisionist history" to me. It was, as far as I'm concerned, just part of an effort to sell B/S to us after B/R failed so badly the previous season to lure fan interest. Some fans are so keen to see B/S happen that they bought it eagerly, even though it contradicted everything that Spike and Buffy ever said or did to each other in the past. Let's remember that he hated this woman and attempted - in all seriousness - to kill her many times. Just as importantly, he was deeply in love with Dru in 1998 and beyond. Sorry, writers, but some of us do have long memories.

Jarrod - I would be horrified if Spike ever rejected the opportunity to rid himself of the chip. Maybe I'm out of place on this philosophical board, but I detest the idea of redeeming Spike. An evil supernatural character is perfectly legitimate on a fantasy show and should be left alone. And, incidentally, I don't believe he would give up the opportunity to lose the chip and regain all of his old power and prestige.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> Re: The Option of Chip Removal and Spike's Redemption -- Humanitas, 08:38:31 06/05/01 Tue

I'm not sure I agree with your "revisionism" theory. The scene in FFL matches pretty closely Spike's description in "Lover's Walk," way back in season 3. Spike may have been in denial, but look at the way he describes it:

"It was that truce with Buffy that did it. Dru said I'd gone soft. Wasn't demon enough for the likes of her. And I told her it didn't mean anything, I was thinking of her the whole time, but she didn't care. So, we got to Brazil, and she was... she was just different. I gave her everything: beautiful jewels, beautiful dresses with beautiful girls in them, but nothing made her happy. And she would fliiirt! (sniffs) I caught her on a park bench, making out with a *chaos* demon! Have you ever seen a chaos demon? They're all slime and antlers. They're disgusting." -- Lover's Walk

Sounds like a guy guilty of cheating to me.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Option of Chip Removal and Spike's Redemption -- rowan, 11:11:51 06/05/01 Tue

I just found the seeds that the writers planted (once we saw the fruit) to be so clever, even the one in FFL -- almost because it was revisionist. It was good revisionism to me, as opposed to bad revisionism.

Hey, they had to do some revisionism, right, because Joss hadn't planned for JM to return as a regular. Somehow, I expect the phenomenal acting ability of JM has influenced the story to some extent. After all, if you've got Secretariat, you can't just use him for strolls in the park on holidays -- he was born to run!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Option of Chip Removal and Spike's Redemption -- Humanitas, 13:27:04 06/05/01 Tue

I sometimes think that's the mark of genius - to be able to find seeds of things never conciously planned. I just re-read the shooting script for "Becoming part 2" and there is that moment where it looks like Angel is going to kill Buffy:

As Angel approaches Buffy, sword in hand.

SPIKE: God, he's going to kill her. . .

After a moment of intense worry, he shrugs, takes off.

Now, OK, he does walk off, but there is that moment where he's all worried for her. That moment leads to his feelings of guilt that show in his description of the scene where Dru leaves him in "Lovers' Walk," a scene which we are actually shown in "Fool for Love." That little arc plays out over almost 4 seasons, all from a little moment, which may have originally been a throwaway. Wow!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Option of Chip Removal and Spike's Redemption -- rowan, 14:36:00 06/05/01 Tue

Thanks for that flashback. I was a more casual Buffy view in the first three seasons, so while I watched every ep, my recall of the earlier seasons isn't as sharp. I'm really looking forward to the F/X reruns this fall.

Interesting what a difference a few seasons can make, isn't it?

I hope when Aquitaine does her post on Spike, she dwells a little on Spike as truthteller. It's amazing how clearly he sees through to the heart of things (whether he cares about them or not).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Option of Chip Removal and Spike's Redemption -- Aquitaine, 18:17:10 06/05/01 Tue

"I hope when Aquitaine does her post on Spike, she dwells a little on Spike as truthteller. It's amazing how clearly he sees through to the heart of things (whether he cares about them or not)."

You mean my book-length analysis, right? LOL. Spike as truthteller... it's certainly one of his most endearing qualities. Trust me. I *will* be going there!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Can't wait! -- rowan, 19:48:47 06/05/01 Tue

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Option of Chip Removal and Spike's Redemption -- Rufus, 20:53:21 06/05/01 Tue

You know that I'll only be forced to kill another tree....so keep it to under 50 pages....:):):) Then of course there will be all of our reply posts.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Option of Chip Removal and Spike's Redemption -- verdantheart, 08:37:37 06/06/01 Wed

When's that coming out? I have some days off coming up and I don't want to miss it!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Spike arrives on 7/19! -- rowan, 20:15:14 06/06/01 Wed

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Muchas Gracias! -- verdantheart, 06:25:59 06/07/01 Thu

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: The Option of Chip Removal and Spike's Redemption -- verdantheart, 08:44:24 06/06/01 Wed

Absolutely! The question for me isn't is it revisionist, but does it work? If it were inconsistent with past characterization and incidents, there would be a problem. I don't see a big problem with this because the seeds were there all the while (I read an interview with Mr Marsters wherein he says that he intentionally played a subtext of sexual tension with Buffy from the beginning -- clever boy!). Further, (I like the Secretariat allusion, by the way) you've got an actor who can make the shift believable. Sure, some of the audience took some convincing -- that's as it should be. (Sorry, couldn't resist adding my thoughts, even though they probably don't add to much)

- vh




And now for something completely different... -- Lazarus, 11:37:49 05/28/01
Mon

I notoced something quite some time ago and I was wondering if I was the
only one. (Please excuse me if this has already been covered, but I haven't
had time to wade through all of the archives yet... ;) ) Way back during one
of Dawn's early episodes (I can't remember which), I noticed that in the
opening credits when they got to MT's spot they showed a little scene of her
walking doen a street, I think it was, and they had this nice fancy little
CG logo of "The Key". My initial thought then was that perhaps JW was
planning a spinoff series starring MT that was intended to appeal more to
the teen viewers again, but subsequent developments have kind of put that
theory to bed. It just struck me as kind of odd that someone like Joss would
go to the trouble of a special little logo like that and not have a reason.
So anyway, I was wondering, did anyone else notoce this? Was I the only one?
Did I hallucinate it? Was it discussed before? Does anyone else even care?
;)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: And now for something completely different... -- Joann, 14:18:18
05/28/01 Mon

No, I didn't notice it. I am all for Dawn getting her own show and leaving
BTVS to The Slayer. But in the credits the spot of Dawn sitting on her bed
waving a pencil and rolling her eyes like a little teen princess writing in
her diary is so not BTVS material. That looks like a shot from Seventh
Heaven.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: And now for something completely different... -- SingedCat,
20:45:25 05/28/01 Mon

sorry, Lazarus-- I never saw such a thing. But while I've seen them all, I
usually do so on tape, and often fastforward through the opening credits.
But I'm planning to rewatch with a friend, so I'll keep an eye out for it.
you're tight, though-- it's odd. I'd vote for the personal dream sequence.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: And now for something completely different... -- Dariel, 20:57:44
05/28/01 Mon

"But in the credits the spot of Dawn sitting on her bed waving a pencil and
rolling her eyes like a little teen princess writing in her diary is so not
BTVS material. That looks like a shot from Seventh Heaven."

I think we can classify this shot as irony on the part of Joss et al. Dawn's
life is nothing like that of the characters on Seventh Heaven.


And what of the Key? -- Shiver, 13:04:13 05/28/01 Mon

Here's something that's bugging me.

Dawn is still the Key - Glory's demise notwithstanding, Dawn is still the
embodiment of something very powerful - and very dangerous.

What's to stop any other Big Baddie from trying to get to her and use the
Key for their own ends?

It would seem silly that her Key-ness would just fall by the wayside, but
would get quite boring if next season's arc has another BB coming after the
means to unlock dimensional portals.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: And what of the Key? -- Kerri, 14:10:11 05/28/01 Mon

I'm not sure when and if there will be other opportunities to use the key.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: And what of the Key? -- darrenK, 16:49:23 05/28/01 Mon

The Key has been activated and I think we'll see other uses for it in the
future. We might even see Dawn able to control its power.

In "The Gift" Giles refers to the Key having been channeled into human form.
I think the key (no pun intended) word there is channeled.

The human, Dawn, is the channel for the power of the KEY. Power whose
potential is limitless.

There was more than symbolism to Buffy's sacrifice. She sacrificed herself
at Dawn indicating that something new now begins.

Up until now, Buffy has fought the forces of Hell to a draw. Maybe Dawn will
change this?

Can't hardly wait to see.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> Re: And what of the Key? -- Joann, 14:14:03 05/28/01 Mon

I think someone mentioned stand alone shows like the first season. I think
that would be a good idea. It took way too long to resolve this storyline
because I didn't enjoy Glory her minions or Ben at all. I think Joel Grey
proved more menancing in the short time he was on the show. And I am all for
less time for Dawn. I am so tired of The Key. I want The Slayer to be the
focal point of any arc.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> Re: And what of the Key? -- Cactus Watcher, 18:58:21 05/28/01 Mon

I agree, the Key story got to be repetitive and very tiresome. If Dawn isn't
killed off over the summer by all the nasties that slipped through into our
reality, I hope she is no longer supernatural. Xander shouldn't be the only
normal person on the show.
Neither Glory nor Darla were very satisfactory villians. Glory was too silly
to be taken seriously, and Darla was a feather-weight. I hope they put a
little more thought into the Big Bad for next season.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[> [> [> Re: And what of the Key? -- darrenK, 23:12:11 05/28/01 Mon

I agree that there weren't enough stand-alones this season and Dawn was used
to good effect in episodes like "The Real Me," where she was really the
Slayer's little sister and not some unbelievably serious artifact.

The show lost some of its satirical edge in the operatic explosion of love
between Buffy and Dawn, but the show always takes a serious turn toward
season's end. And Dawn is a good character. It's a good element to have the
Slayer love something besides a 243 year old Vampire.

And this arc did have episodes like Spiral that were full of fear, action
and paranoia.


Essay on *The Gift* - (Rufus, remember that trees are recyclable resources!
;) -- OnM, 16:33:39 05/28/01 Mon

What if God was one of us?
Just a slob like one of us?
Just a stranger on a bus,
Tryin' to make his way home...

_______________Joan Osborne, 'One of Us'

Now the flames they followed Joan of Arc / As she came riding through the
dark
No moon to keep her armor bright / No man to get her through this very smoky
night
She said I'm tired of the war / I want the kind of work I had before
A wedding dress or something white / To wear upon my swollen appetite

Well I'm glad to hear you talk this way / You know I've watched you riding
every day
And something in me yearns to win / Such a cold and lonesome heroine
And who are you, she sternly spoke / To the one beneath the smoke
Why I'm Fire, he replied / And I love your solitude, I love your pride

Then Fire, make your body cold / I'm going to give you mine to hold
Saying this she climbed inside / To be his one, to be his only bride
And deep into his firey heart / He took the dust of Joan of Arc
And high above the wedding guests / He hung the ashes of her wedding dress

It was deep into his firey heart / He took the dust of Joan of Arc
And then she clearly understood / If he was fire, then she must be wood
I saw her wince, I saw her cry / I saw the glory in her eye
Myself I long for love and light / But must it come so cruel, and oh so
bright

______________Leonard Cohen, 'Joan of Arc'

Sometimes you make me lose my will to forgive,
And just become a beacon for your soul

______________Shawn Colvin, 'Riding Shotgun down the Avalanche'

*******

From the Orlando Sentinel:

OS: You have left people grieving, man. How can you live with yourself?
JW: Good. That's what I live to do. You think Charles Dickens said `Oh, let
Little Nell live'? "

*******

The show opens with that familar voice, as have all the shows before it--
"Previously, on Buffy the
Vampire Slayer..." and what follows in the next 30-some seconds is both
grief and joy all rolled into one.
Grief, since as soon as the montage of clips from the past five years begins
to unfold, and then so rapidly
accelerate, I know that my worst fears have just been confirmed-- it is now
a certainty that Buffy is going
to die by the end of the episode, and that there will be no last-second
rescue from this sad destiny. There is
joy, though, when the clips end with a smash cut into a scene where the
camera, obviously the point of
view of someone running, jars you back into the present. (On a subsequent
viewing, you suddenly realize
that the music that builds and rises higher in pitch as the clips speed up
is strongly reminiscent of the end of
The Beatles tune 'Day in the Life'). The sheer cinematic technical
proficiency involved in not only
conceiving of, but executing this opening sequence reminds me that even if
the play of the evening is going
to be a tragedy like Romeo and Juliet, it's still Shakespeare at the helm.

The POV turns out to be a teenage boy, exhausted and terrified. The reason
for his fright quickly becomes
evident, as a fairly burly-- and fairly hungry-looking-- vampire walks into
frame. The boy pleads with the
vamp not to hurt him, the vamp simply seems amused at this. Just as the
tension peaks, a tiny
blonde-headed female figure pops out of a doorway, and soon, with the words
"You know, fighting's not
cool!", we are on familiar ground as the past revisits us. Vamp threatens,
Buffy jokes, vamp gets dusted.
The boy is speechless.

Buffy: "You should get home".

Boy: "How did you... do that?"

Buffy: "It's what I do."

As she says this she walks slowly, not with pride, but just sort of
resignedly. It's just another day-- or night
-- on the job, a job that never ends. She walks back over to the door she
came out of and begins to open it.

"But you're just a girl!" the boy notes, still not able to believe what he's
just witnessed.

"That's what *I* keep saying", replies Buffy, and closes the door behind
her. Fade to black, and then the
opening credits.

*******

Past is prologue, and for a few minutes we have seen the old Buffy, the
Buffy who was the Slayer when
that was a simple thing-- the bad guys stand up, she knocks them down, and
gets in a few mocking
comments in the meanwhile, just to make sure that Evil knows how little
regard she holds for it.

But things aren't simple now. Buffy is an adult, albeit a very young one.
Her mind is no longer young,
however, as the soul-crushing events of the past year have taken a drastic
toll. She slays a vamp who
doesn't even know who she is, which neatly mirrors her own thoughts.
Simplicity of purpose has given
sway to the moral complexities of dealing with seemingly purposeless loss,
of where she fits in the total
scheme of things. Fighting evil is easy compared to fighting to hold on to
your inner faith in a grand-- and
benificent-- purpose to the universe, some sense of greater meaning.

This ageing process has come too quickly. The opening series of clips are
like the manner in which time
seems to accelerate as one grows from childhood, slowly at first then faster
and faster until everything is a
blur and suddenly you are where you are now and don't really remember how it
all happened. In the case
of some lucky persons, those memories you do recall are happy ones and you
will find yourself at peace
with the universe and with your destiny as it unfolded. Buffy has not had
this luxury, for the last five years
she has done her best to answer a calling she never wished for, but it is no
longer enough.

All this weight is in evidence when she walks back into the Magic Shop,
where her friends await. When
asked what happened, she simply replies "Vampire". Her response gets another
one-word response from
Xander-- "Oh." Just a vamp, evil at it's most pathetically simple, why can't
we have that again?

What follows in the next several scenes really builds upon, and then lays
bare the core of the dilemma.
When faced with making a choice among a series of actions, all of which
entail the loss of that which
makes you human and allows your soul to continue to embrace the light, how
do you justify even seeking
victory? What's the point when all outcomes are negative?

Giles has already given in to despair, which is something we have never seen
him express before. Giles has
been unsure, been frightened, been worried that he might fail in his sworn
duty to protect 'this sorry
world', but he has never despaired. This is so unlike him, that like most
viewers, I am actually shocked
when he stands up and yells at Buffy for avoiding what he sees as the only
possible way out-- killing Dawn
before Glory can begin the dimension-opening ritual:

Giles: "Buffy, if the ritual starts, every living creature in this and every
other dimension imaginable will
suffer unbearable torment and death. Including Dawn."

Buffy: "Then the last thing she'll see is me protecting her."

Giles: "You'll fail. You'll die. We all will."

In terms of having evil ultimately triumph, this is surely the lowest moment
of the episode, and in fact of
the whole series. In Becoming Pt.2, Buffy is taunted by Angelus that she is
alone, that she has nothing left.
Her response, after a beat, is that she still has herself. While she would
not have realized it at that moment,
what she really means is that in her innermost soul, hope still lives.
Whether it is a conscious knowledge or
not, the result it still the same. She pulls out of despair and goes on to
defeat Angelus.

In *The Weight of the World*, this despair did manage to cripple her, and I
have now been thinking that
this may have been what changed Giles to make despair possible in him. It is
interesting that for the years
Buffy has known Giles, she has looked to him as the guide, the parent, the
source for knowledge, a shelter
from the storm of adulthood. Now, suddenly, the position is reversed, the
roof has blown off the shelter
and the walls are shaking in the wind-- Giles has given up, and it is up to
Buffy to take adulthood on
completely by herself without the buffer of an adult for guidance. As in
Becoming Pt.2, a beat passes, and
then Buffy accepts this additional burden.

Buffy: "I'm sorry. I love you all, but I'm sorry".

She means, and they understand, that the issue of killing Dawn is off the
table. It will not happen, at least
not if she can, by any conceivable means, prevent it. This is exactly what
needs to happen at this point in
time, and it does. The irony is not lost that in *Spiral*, Giles gives what
sounds like a deathbed speech to
Buffy telling her how much he admires her, especially the way she always
follows her heart. She is
following her heart now, because logic has failed to provide a solution, but
Giles does not agree. Perhaps
he feels that because Buffy broke down previously, her instincts may no
longer be reliable, or perhaps there
is another reason-- one that could be enought to drive any 'parent' to
despair.

It has also occurred to me that Giles may have already deduced the 'answer'
that Buffy arrives at only after
the portal has opened and she is trying to prevent Dawn from sacrificing
herself, i.e., that her blood is the
same as Dawn's blood, and so she can sacrifice herself in Dawn's place.
Giles was privy to Buffy's
experiences in the desert visionquest and the cryptic 'Death is your Gift'
pronouncement by the spirit
guide. Events occurring afterward may have only served to reinforce this
belief. (Buffy's obsession with
protecting Dawn above everything and everyone else, and the eventual
knowledge that Ben = Glory).
Knowing this meant there were essentially only three ways to defeat Glory--
kill Ben, kill Dawn, or kill
Buffy. To Giles, it isn't a choice. How could you possibly justify allowing
your beloved 'daughter' to end
her life when you could instead take the less-than-real 'life' of Dawn, or
even the 'innocent' human Ben.

He also had to know only too well that Buffy would make that choice, and
each and every time Buffy
insists that Dawn cannot be killed, his despair grows.

So it come down to Buffy taking a stand, which she does. Giles, reluctantly
but resignedly gives in, and the
rift begins to heal. The scene in the workout room behind the magic shop
further continues the process
when Buffy responds to Giles quiet statement of "I imagine you hate me right
now."

In the shooting script, Buffy turns to face Giles and replies, "Little bit.
But I understand."

There are actually quite a number of instances in this ep where the shooting
script and the actual broadcast
differ. In each case, I felt that the changes or deletions worked to the
betterment of the story, and this one
was no exception. I have always felt, and had those feelings reinforced this
past season, that Sarah Michelle
Gellar's gifts as an actor are in greatest evidence when she has little or
no dialog to work with, and she has
to rely on facial expressions and body language to convey the emotion of the
moment. The dialog above
was deleted in the actual ep, and Buffy does not turn to face Giles.
Instead, we see a little series of shifts of
expressions, barest tiny movements, that express her change of mind from
anger at his lack of faith in her
to acceptance that he really only wants what she wants-- a happy outcome
somehow springing
unexpectedly forth from this colossal mess. My compliments to Sarah-- when
you're good, you're good.
When you're great, we weep.

This is also a pivotal moment for another reason, and I don't think that
anyone's caught it yet, at least I
haven't heard it voiced. This recognition that Giles was not 'the enemy' in
Buffy's quest to keep her sister
from dying allows her for the first time to consider letting Dawn die, if
there really, truly, turns out to be no
alternative. The ensuing conversation on the couch, with the two of them
sitting there discussing their past
battles, completes the process of clearing the air between her and Giles.
She already knows now how Giles
feels (she may not know why, if my conjecture about him already having
figured out the 'blood'
connection) and so she openly expresses how she feels. Again, brilliant work
from both Sarah and the
cinematographers, with her face framed all alone in the upper corner of the
screen, looking out into the
blackness. Another little touch-- as pointed out by several other posters,
she is dressed in all black as she
does her 'warmup' for battle-- the Slayer psyche is predominent, but when
she sits back down on the
couch with Giles, she picks up her white sweater and holds it in her hands,
thus symbolically starting to
reenter her fuller, more balanced self.

Buffy has made a decision, she knows the world must go on even if Dawn must
die to permit it, but she has
made it clear that, unlike in her catatonic 'dream loop' life will not go on
for her, and that Dawn's death
will mean her own as well, either literally (they die together) or at the
very least, her soul will be dead and
she will not perform her calling any longer. Why work to destroy souless
evil when you have no soul
yourself? You are no longer a child of God ("What kind of God would demand
her life for something she
has no control over?) and would be no better then they are.

Buffy: "I guess a Slayer is just a killer after all"

Giles: "I think you're wrong about that"

Thus, her statement "If Dawn dies, I'm quitting"after she arises from the
couch and prepares to leave the
room. Giles prior statement denying her 'I'm just a killer' remark will soon
be seen as foreshadowing for
act 4, where the truth will become all too obvious.

(I'll skip now to the last act, I realize some of what I've talked about so
far overlaps to some extent the
thoughts others have posted, but it would make things too choppy if I placed
only my 'new' thoughts in
here. Knowing that you guys are as hopelessly obsessed with this mythology
as I am does make it easier!).

I've stated in some previous posts about my admiration for how the story is
eventually resolved. The
power of the ending is such that it doesn't diminish with repeated viewings,
and there is no higher praise
than that, that is the mark of a classic. In fact, viewing it this morning
just before I started to write this little
dissertation, I found myself choking up before they even got to the
tombstone shot (yes, I'm a big softie, I
don't deny it), while Buffy recites her last words. The reaction was even
more intense than when I viewed
it last, possibly because I've been pondering all these imponderables for
the last week and some of it is
starting to sink in.

I will make some comments on the Giles and Ben issue, and some comments
about suicide and sacrifice,
just to put in my three cents.

I stated in the post I made a few days ago that asked whether or not Giles
disregarded the 'will' of the
PTB when he killed Ben, that perhaps he should have accepted Buffy's
decision to spare him, and by
extension Glory. I also stated that I agreed with his decision, that Glory
is simply too big a threat to allow
her to live on. This isn't a trivial issue, however, and I was very pleased
to see that there was a lot of
disagreement as to the correct course of action in the responses to my post.

Maasquerade (and others) made the very excellent point that we can only do
what we think is right in any
given situation, and to try to second-guess non-existant or cryptic
infromation handed down from above is
to ultimately end up paralyzed in indecision or non-action. From a realverse
position, this is certainly true.
In the Buffyverse, things are less clear. In this universe, the PTB are a
reality, we know of their existance
as a given. We know that they mostly speak indirectly, as in the visions
that they send to Cordelia, but
there have been been instances of them speaking more directly in terms of
Buffy and the events that
revolve around her.

Giles states that he admires Buffy most for 'following her heart'. The PTB
seem to agree with this concept.
If Buffy wasn't an avatar for their will, the snow would never have appeared
in *Amends* indicating to
Angel that he should heed her words and live. Buffy hid Angel from the
others when he returned to Earth
from hell, a course of action that made little sense from a logical,
rational standpoint, (and for which she
caught significant flack when they eventually discovered it) but doing so
eventually led to *Amends* and
the course of warrior for good that Angel pursues today. There is plenty of
evidence that Buffy's decisions
in times of pivotal occurances should not be questioned. Her decision to
save Dawn saved something more
than just the world, if saved the concept of hope, without which, like a
soul, life becomes pointless and
humans just animate chemical blobs.

In the beginning of the episode, we get to hear Buffy state what undoubtably
is her essential concept of
herself-- she's 'just a girl'.

But someone who's 'just a girl' doesn't have the strength of spirit to make
an immortal god bleed and ask
for mercy. Someone who's 'just a girl' wouldn't grant that mercy. This is
the spiritual essence of the
warrior hero-- they fight the good fight, but they never revel