May 2001 posts
My Thoughts On The Gift -- Kerri,
13:49:32 05/23/01 Wed
Wow! That was a really fantastic episode!!! The ending was somewhat
predictable, but I think that is part of what made it so great-
everything
really fit together at the end. First the Buffy/ Faith dream two
years ago,
and the refrence to the Robert Frost poem-"miles to go untill
I sleep."
Buffy had responsibilities and she couldn't give up, she had miles
to go.
Now she is "sleeping."
About what the first slayer/spirit guide told Buffy, "death
is your gift" I
was wondering-is death a gift for Dawn or for Buffy. It may be
a gift that
Buffy gives to her sister-sacrificing her life so that Dawn can
live. On the
other hand it is a gift to Buffy-she doesn't have to experience
the pain of
living without her sister-which as Spike said wouls destroy Buffy.
Death
will bring Buffy peace-going back to what Spike told Buffy in
Fool For Love.
I had one small problem with the last scene-which don't get me
wrong I
loved. When Buffy is saying her last words to Dawn the camera
moves off them
and we don't hear what she says until later, and we don't see
the
expressions on their faces. While I did like hearing Buffy's parting
words-which were fantastic and my new favorit qoute from the show-ehile
we
see the reaction of her friends, I really wanted to see Buffy
and Dawn's
faces as Buffy spoke. I think that a great deal of emotion was
taken away by
not seeing the faces of the two sisters. While the scene was tremendously
sad and I began to cry when I rewatched it I think that what really
would
have made it heartwrenching and would have helped us to understand
the
characters better would have been toi see their faces. However,
I still
loved the scene and Buffy's final words.
The ending was great! I know some people were disappointed but
I thought it
was perfect for Buffy to sacrafice herself for Dawn. The only
thing about
Buffy dying that I really didn't like is how bringing her back
will almost
undermine what happened with Joyce. There was such a big deal
about death
being final and not bringing people back to life that I think
Joss will
really have to come up with something amazing to explain Buff's
return-and I
have no doubt he will!
I think it will actually make for great character developement
to see how
Buffy is changed by the experience-what new knowledge and enlightenment
she
gains.
I liked that Willow went to Angel-I would have liked to see his
reaction to
hearing that Buffy was dead, and I really hope that they will
address that
again next season.
The first scene was really good and worked really well to show
the audience
how far Buffy has come. At first it's the old Buffy-joking, trying
to make
light of being the slayer, but at the end there is a somber tone
in her
voice that has come from her experience. Also, Buffy saying how
she's just a
normal girl, but she proves herself to be anything but normal.
Like Giles
says-she's a hero!
I have to say I liked seeing the Ripper. It was an interesting
character
developement for Giles, and we really saw some of his dark side
in the Gift.
It also showed how Buffy couldn't take an innocent life.
Well, that's all for now-I can't wait to see what Joss will do
with this
one! How do you think he'll bring Buffy back?
I have to say that was maybe the best Buffy I've ever seen!
~Kerri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Trusting Joss -- Humanitas, 14:39:43 05/23/01 Wed
I have to say that I hate the fact that Buffy died. Not that it
wasn't the
perfect ending for the epsiode and the season's story arc - it
was.
Everything has been leading up to this, and Buffy's death was
the logical
conclusion. Despite this, I have two problems:
The first problem is that I know there is a season 6, and that
SMG is under
contract to play Buffy, so her death doesn't have the poignancy
that it
ought to have. It was moving, yes, but it should have been absolutely
heartbreaking, and it wasn't, because I have no (well, not as
much) sense of
loss. I was more affected by Joyce's death, because I figured
that the rules
would not be bent for her.
The other problem is that I can't see any good way to bring her
back.
Anything I can come up with cheapens her sacrifice unbearably.
If this were
a comic book, or a daytime soap opera, that would be fine. I hold
BtVS to a
higher standard, mostly because it generally rises to one.
Having said all this, I still have faith that next season will
be up to par.
I trust Joss to pull it off. After all, he managed the Buffybot,
and none of
us thought he would. I was sure that could only be bad. May I
always be
wrong in this particular way!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Trusting Joss -- Shiver, 16:32:55 05/23/01 Wed
I've been thinking the same thing all day. When Buffy stabbed
Angel and sent
him to Hell, I was weepy for days. Because I hadn't read any spoilers
(grin)
and I didn't know for sure he was coming back next season. But
I know Buffy
isn't going to really stay dead ... so it makes all the rest of
it seem so
empty. Spike and Willow's grief, and all the rest - I want to
yell at the TV
and say, well she's coming back, dummies ... the only stirrings
of emotion I
had during the ep were when Buffy said "I wish my mom was
here ...." now
that was sad.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Maybe I'm a big softie, but -- Masquerade, 16:38:43
05/23/01 Wed
personally I sobbed the first time and this morning when I re-watched,
not
because she was dead, but because she was willing to die. It was
such a
touching and heroic thing and I couldn't stand seeing her sister
and friends
in pain like that. Spike crying about killed me! OK, I also cry
at some
credit card commercials about home and family and dogs and that,
but...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Buffy's sacrafice -- Kerri, 16:43:19 05/23/01
Wed
Maybe bringing Buffy back cheapens her death as humanities said,
but it
certainly doesn't cheapen her sacrafice-she still gave up her
life for Dawn
and the world
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Join the Softie Club -- Solitude1056,
17:20:20 05/23/01 Wed
The ones that got me were Dawn & Spike, not Buffy. I mean, Buffy's
the hero.
She chooses this, even when she says she's not choosing it...
when push
comes to shove, she goes that extra mile. It's her purpose, and
she embraces
it. But Dawn's new to this game, and Spike - well, Spike's supposed
to be a
bad boy, a killer, and Buffy's worst nightmare. Instead he's trying
to tell
Dawn he's sorry for not saving her, in that split second before
he's tossed
off the edge, and Dawn's screaming for Doc not to do it. And at
the end, it
was Spike's and Dawn's reactions that got me the most - the most
jaded
experienced, even cynical character ... and the newest, naive,
child-like
but wizened character, both equally distraught and in pain at
the fact that
they were both helpless to prevent the circumstances that made
Buffy choose,
yet again, to do The Hero Thing. Now that got me hard.
Ok, I'll stop going on about it, since this time (yay!) I've got
it to
watch, again, once I get back from out of town. Yippee. Btw, does
anyone
know if the WB is going to show reruns this summer, or if this
season was it
until the show's syndicated?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Join the Softie Club -- rowan,
18:45:10 05/23/01 Wed
"Instead he's trying to tell Dawn he's sorry for not saving
her, in that
split second before he's tossed off the edge, and Dawn's screaming
for Doc
not to do it. And at the end, it was Spike's and Dawn's reactions
that got
me the most - the most jaded experienced, even cynical character
... and the
newest, naive, child-like but wizened character, both equally
distraught and
in pain at the fact that they were both helpless to prevent the
circumstances that made Buffy choose, yet again, to do The Hero
Thing. Now
that got me hard. "
Me too. This was the most emotional moment of the ep for me. If
I live to be
100, I don't think I will ever forget the agonized look on Spike's
face, the
tears in his eyes, Dawn's fear, her instinctive move towards him,
Spike's
whispered, 'no', followed by Dawn's scream of the same word. I
can't believe
how much was conveyed without words by the looks on two actors'
faces -- and
in such a short period of time. Everything of their love for each
other, an
acknowledgement of each other's death (I believe Dawn thought
the fall would
kill Spike), an acknowledgement of the apocalypse to come, and
the guilt
over a failure that now Buffy would have to fix somehow.
Wow.
Willow telling Tara she would always find her got me too. I used
alot of
tissues last night.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Join the Softie Club --
Rufus, 19:13:55 05/23/01 Wed
Spike always wanted to slip in and have himself a good day, he
finally got
what he said he wanted only to find it the worst day and loss
of his
unlife...his reaction was extreme...his facade of the big bad
finally
dissolved in grief....
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Be careful what you
wish for...it might come true, hmm?
-- rowan, 19:24:43 05/23/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Be careful
what you wish for...it might come
true, hmm? -- Rufus, 21:44:15 05/23/01 Wed
In FFL Spike was so busy putting on the big Discovery Channel
version of his
life that he pissed Buffy off in the end. He couldn't resist the
temptation
to show her that he would be there when she lost her will to live.
Her death
wish. What he said he wished for came true except for the fact
that he never
really wanted that by the time FFL came about. He didn't truly
know what he
wanted...he only knew that he wanted Buffy and felt a need to
impress
her...only to put his foot in his mouth. His fear of being humiliated
kept
him from being genuine with Buffy about who he had become and
how he really
felt. Pride screwed up a chance for Buffy to see him a different
way. The
only save that night was when he comforted Buffy on the back steps.
Unfortunatley she was in too much pain to realize just how much
the big bad
had started to change.
Those big bad words about being there when Buffy died came true.
Not only
can he feel guilt that he couldn't protect Dawn the way he wanted
but now he
has to live with his words about a good day. I bet he would love
to take
them back, and I believe he would have taken her place if he could
have.
I find it so ironic that Spike was busy shadowing and attempting
to kill the
girls that were the embodiment of what he wished he was. Does
he get it? The
most efflugent thing he ever wanted for himself he snuffed out
every chance
he got until he found Buffy who showed him what a hero really
is. He always
wanted something glistening, and glowing....and there are the
Summers girls,
Buffy who has love brighter than the flame, and Dawn who is pure
green
glowing energy. What will he do next? He has a promise to keep.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Be careful
what you wish for...it might come
true, hmm? -- squireboy, 10:51:03 05/24/01 Thu
Excellent points, Rufus (bonus points for working in "effulgent"
:D). I
especially like your reminder about Spike's promise. He may have
made it
assuming he was about to die, he always figured he'd go down fighting,
but
alas, he lived, and now he has to be Dawn's protector. A real
commitment, I
wonder if he will be up to the challenge.
Season 6 looks very promising. Naturally, I can't wait. :)
squireboy
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re:
Be careful what you wish for...it might
come true, hmm? -- rowan, 19:39:21 05/24/01 Thu
I don't know if I can quite express this, but I'll try.
I think that Spike and Dawn are just totally in love with each
other. Not in
a romantic/sexual way, but in a Buffy/Angel soulmate way (again,
without the
romantic/sexual aspect). I have never seen two people look at
each other
quite the way those two did up on the tower before Doc threw Spike
off.
I have to admit, the idea of a B/S ship intrigued me at the start
of S5. And
I'm glad that they're relationship is improving and maturing,
because it
provides alot of opportunity to explore shades of grey not within
Buffy's
other friendships.
But that storyline is not even close to as compelling as Spike
and Dawn.
They have become such a couple in my mind...just as I think of
Xander/Anya
and Willow/Tara as a unit, I think of Spike/Dawn the same way.
I think I'll
be really shocked if they aren't joined at the hip in S6. I'm
not really
sure if Joss intended this (or perhaps I'm overemphasizing it).
Maybe it's
just the chemistry between MT and JM that does it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Re: Be careful what you wish for...it might
come true, hmm? -- squireboy, 20:07:26 05/24/01 Thu
No offense, rowan, but um, ewww.
I think the evolution of Spike this year has been fascinating
and there's no
doubting that he and Dawn have a bond. I know you're struggling
to express
it, but I don't think it's as close as you're getting at. I wonder
what joss
has in mind for Spike next year as he takes full centre stage
as the major
male figure, with ASH moving to recurring and Xander's quirkiness
being
written out to demonstrate maturity/growth. I'd hate to think
that joss
intends Spike to be Giles the Second and I hold out hope that
there is some
resolution some time for the deus ex machina chip in his head.
Spike used to get all the clever lines. Now he gets all the good
scenes and
JM is taking full advantage. He was pretty amazing this season,
especially
in the finale. For Spike to be most effective though, I think
there has to
be a certain amount of Monster first, Man second for him to truly
work.
Otherwise, he's just a tough Xander with headaches.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Be careful what you wish for...it
might come true, hmm? -- rowan, 20:35:26 05/24/01 Thu
"No offense, rowan, but um, ewww."
Hey, I told you, I did not mean sexually. That would be disgusting
given
both the characters and actors age differences. Let me be totally
clear on
that issue. I'm not suggesting Lolita here.
I happen to believe reincarnation. Sometimes, you instantly bond
with
someone, even if there's a great age difference between you, or
some
difference in circumstance that seems like it would normally preclude
a
close friendship. I always feel in those situations that it's
souls that
have travelled through time together before finding each other
again.
I think that's how I feel about Spike and Dawn.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> [> Re: Be careful what you wish for...it
might come true, hmm? -- Max, 18:37:53 05/25/01 Fri
Buffy was 16 when she met Angel.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
[> Re: Be careful what you wish for...it
might come true, hmm? -- verdantheart, 09:13:22 05/25/01 Fri
The Spike/Dawn relationship has gotten a lot of attention and
I think that
this is to a large extent due to the gifts of both actors (amazing,
indeed).
Both make their roles more vivid. Put them together in a scene
and you
multiply that effect. (I suppose that's why some--not you, rowan!--have
carried this toward eww-land.)
The Spike character was made more and more complex by the additions
of pain
and conflicts. Mr Marsters made the transition believable and
enabled us to
identify with Spike to the point that we can forgive his stalking
and foray
into bot-play. Now he's in for a huge guilt trip. I think the
man/monster
conflict will be around indefinitely.
Just my 2 cents.
- vh
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Amazing
how all 3 Summers women captured his
heart, hmm? -- rowan, 19:32:14 05/24/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Yup..................:):):)
-- Rufus, 21:39:48
05/24/01 Thu
He couldn't help himself...but after he made that deal with Buffy
in season
two he was a goner...the ep when he had cocoa with Buffys mom
was
priceless...he sounded like he could have been one of Buffys friends...when
he tried to lie about being in a band with Buffy....flash forward
to bitty
Buffy and you can see this guy is stuck with the Summers girls,
like it or
not(and I think he likes). Now we only have to wonder if he will
keep his
promise or will he go into a cycle of destruction? Will he ever
revert back
to his evil ways....I don't know...and I love the uncertainty.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> [>
Too true! -- rowan, 14:05:35 05/25/01 Fri
You know, when you put it that way (looking back on it), you really
do have
to say, "boy, that poor guy is a goner and he doesn't even
know it yet."
I'm hoping that Spike will channel his guilt in productive ways
and won't
succumb to self-pity. I'd like to see my boy earn some respect
next season
and not be a whipping boy for every other character (God, sounds
like
Xander's problem...).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Buffy reruns on WB on Wed at 9:00
-- Jen C., 18:45:53
05/23/01 Wed
Starting June 6th, I believe. Angel reruns on Mon @ 9:00 starting
June 4.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Guess it's time to hand out the hankies.....:)
-- Rufus,
18:27:49 05/23/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Maybe I'm a big softie, but -- OnM,
21:19:56 05/23/01 Wed
Two things:
1 > People, keep in mind that there is *us*-- you, me, all
of us who live
our lives as devoted fans and post at these boards and hang on
every
spoiler-- and then these are just regular, normal viewers of the
show (yes,
they exist, and in great quantity).
We just assume everyone is like us, but they aren't. We knew in
advance what
was going to happen, they very likely did not. *BUFFY is DEAD*
to these
people. They don't expect her to return. The WB kept referring
to the show
as the 'Series Finale'. They quite possibly no nothing about UPN
picking up
the program, or that SMG has two more years on her contract or
any of that
stuff.
You think you're depressed over this plot turn? How many other
TV shows can
you recall where the writers killed off not *a* character, but
*THE*
character, the one the show is *named after*???
2 > As to my reaction, I was mildly bummed (and again, I *knew*
what was
going to happen for 99.5% certain right after that incredible
sequence that
opened the show, where they breezed through clips from all the
past seasons)
immediately after the show. Later in the evening, after sacking
out, I had
trouble getting to sleep. When I woke up this morning (much earlier
than my
norm) I actually felt bad, like there was a pressure in my chest,
an ache. I
realized that the ending was still in my thoughts, and that I
was feeling
very depressed. I was up and around for over an hour before it
went away.
***I have a clear understanding of the difference between reality
and
fantasy***, I was spoiled pretty badly as to what was going to
happen, but
it was like some post-traumatic stress thing had taken hold of
me.
So all I can say is, they better damn well bring her back, or
I'm gonna be
one very unhappy old geezer! We need and love our heroes, they
make life
worth living because they are what we wish we could be.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Need for Heroes -- Brian, 09:16:44
05/24/01 Thu
OnM, I couldn't agree with you more. We need our heroes, (Do we
have any in
real life?) and Buffy is a great one. I know I'm not ready to
give up my
weekly fix that takes me away from the dull routine of life into
a magical
world. Two more years, and maybe movies? One can only hope!
Maybe someone will write a book - Everything I know about Life
I learned
from BtVS?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Not the first time a main character
was killed in a season
finale, but definitely the best... -- Rob, 09:28:09 05/24/01 Thu
The only other show I can recall that killed off its main character
at a
season finale was "Xena: Warrior Princess." At the end
of the fourth season,
Xena and Gabrielle, her sidekick, were crucified by the Romans
and died.
They were brought back by a holy man and an angel, and it turned
out Xena
had died only to be reborn again, with a baby, immaculately conceived.
Not
that this has anything to do with how Buffy will return, but I
just wanted
to point out that, even though I adored "The Gift" and
the entire plot, it
isn't the first time it's been done. I do hope, however, that
the resolution
of Buffy will be much more satisfying. Despite the fact that it's
a fantasy,
Buffy is always logical in following its own rules. I'm sure Joss
knows a
way to explain Buffy's return, and still follow his rule in "Forever"
that
you can't ressurect the dead, and if you do it will not be the
same person
you loved, but a zombie, or at least something will be wrong with
them.
Xena, on the other hand, is a fantasy show that has very few rules,
and has
characters die and return with very little logical explanation.
That's why
when Xena returned, I excepted it, besides the fact that when
a minor
character dies, they never try to bring them back, but if Xena
dies, they
do. I always thought that was a double standard and not competely
ethically
fair. Buffy, on the other hand, does not break its own rules without
an
examination of the morality/ethics/etc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Not the first time a main
character was killed in a
season finale, but definitely the best... -- Anthony8, 17:04:58
05/24/01 Thu
Actually, if there was a Hall of Fame for cheap character
kill-offs/resurrections, I have two in mind that may be before
your time (at
least with regards to first-run episodes). Back in the 80's, there
were two
really popular shows that brought back dead characters and, lost
a
substantial segment of loyal viewers as a result.
First there was "Magnum, P.I." a show starring Tom Selleck
(recently of
"Friends") about an ex-Vietnam War marine/vet-turned-private
detective and
his circle of former war buddies. The show was at the top of its
ratings
after a number of years so the producers decided to go out on
top. In the
series finale (at least as far as everyone knew at the time),
Magnum was
shot and dies. The last scene had him leaving his body and walking
off into
the proverbial "white light." It actually wasn't as
corny as it sounds.
Well, there was such a fervent fan campaign to un-cancel the series
that,
voila, it was back on the air the next season. Magnum was miraculously
revived on the operating table and his "soul" was sucked
back from the light
and into his body. After the return episode, the series died a
slow two year
death until it was cancelled due to poor ratings.
The all-time infamous character resurrection, however was that
of Bobby
Ewing on the primtime soap "Dallas." Patrick Duffy who
played Bobby decided
to move on to other projects, so he was killed off in the series
season
finale. After a year out in the wilderness, the actor decided
to return to
the show. Now "Dallas" had a devoted following and great
ratings at the time
and his initial departure from the show had no effect on that.
After a year
of well developed story arcs that required consistent viewer attention,
the
character is alive and well and taking a shower in the comfort
of his own
bathroom. His wife pulls back the shower curtain, and to her relief,
Bobby's
death and the entire previous season's plotlines were only a bad
dream!
Needless to say, that commenced the ratings decline which eventually
killed
the show.
Given the above, I'm glad that JW had this death and resurrection
storyline
pre-planned 2 years ago. At least he is not betraying the viewers
by
springing something absolutely ridiculous on them. The Buffyverse
requires a
certain extra suspension of disbelief on our part, but we participate
gladly
because of the metaphysical rewards. We have already experienced
the
permanency of physical death with "The Body." As discussed
in other posts,
the parental figure must die for the Hero to take the next step
in her
evolution. Her next step in this journey was her own spiritual
death and
(next season) rebirth. We are supposed to identify with the Hero
and take
the journey with her. Consequently, the impact of her mother's
death as
opposed to her own should parallel what we would feel under similar
circumstances. Two entirely different types of loss with two completely
different results. And very well done in each case.
And that is our moment in television history for the day.
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Well, I wasn't spoiled on the death,
but I knew the UPN scoop
before hand -- Masquerade, 11:08:33 05/24/01 Thu
I know as a Buffy fansite WebMistress, I will do what I can to
get the word
out to fans, and will encourage other webmasters I know to do
the same. I
already got one letter from a woman in Montreal who knew about
the UPN
change but thought maybe that was a false Web-rumor after viewing
the "WB
Series Finale" and seeing Buffy die.
BTW, any Montrealers know what station UPN shows appear on? I
remember
seeing "Voyager" when I lived up there, but don't remember
the station it
was on.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Well, I wasn't spoiled
on the death, but I knew the
UPN scoop before hand -- Nina, 20:46:43 05/24/01 Thu
I am from Montreal and "Voyager" is now on CFCF12. From
what I can gather tv
stations here buy what they like and it doesn't matter from where
they buy
it. I still don't know if I will get Buffy next year.
I'll cross my fingers and keep hoping I guess. :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Trusting Joss -- Mindtrekker, 22:58:54 05/23/01
Wed
First, I have to say that I don't think you can blame the show
for your
access to spoiler material. I didn't have any idea that SMG had
signed a
contract or that the show was moving to another network. Having
watched the
show in that context, I was depressed all day until I read the
posts here
about next season. Had it been any more poignant, I might have
tried to jump
into a gateway between worlds thingy or whatever it was.
Secondly, I don't think the fact that we know the hero will win
is a
reasonable criticism of any story. We ALWAYS know the hero is
going to
win..that's why a story is being told about them..you don't tell
adventure
stories about losers. (Note that even though Buffy died, she did
not lose)
The essense of good storytelling then is the ability of the storyteller
to
take us to a deep dark place in which we can't see ahead .. so
that even
though we know the hero will win, we nonetheless doubt the outcome.
Joss is
an expert at this as you note when you say that you can't see
how Buffy can
be brought back.
Frankly, I can't either and it seems like they've written out
the characters
most closely linked to Buffy--her mother and Riley--which seems
like a sign
that they intend to move on without her. So I'm still in that
deep dark
place until Joss shows me the way out, and I can't believe I have
to wait
three months for that. In that, lies the tension and the drama--not
in the
actual outcome, which I hope is favorable.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Trusting Joss -- MKS, 09:22:07 05/24/01
Thu
Actually, the UPN premier will probably be in OCTOBER (according
to Joss),
so you have FIVE months to wait. Have a nice day! :-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Trusting Joss -- LoriAnn, 09:46:57
05/24/01 Thu
"Actually, the UPN premier will probably be in OCTOBER (according
to Joss),
so you have FIVE months to wait. Have a nice day!"
Actually, Joss said this, "I don't know the date. I believe
we're looking at
early October, but nothing's been set." So when will it be?
The only piece
of information in here that isn't qualified in some way is "nothing's
been
set."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Whoo! Guess I'd better clarify... -- Humanitas,
10:33:36 05/24/01
Thu
First of all, let me say that I used plenty of tissues this ep.
I'm a big
sucker for noble sacrifice, and going on knowing that you may
well be going
to your death. All those little scenes of the gang getting ready,
Spike and
Buffy, Xander and Anya, Buffy and Giles, etc. had me tearing up,
and crying
right along with everyone else. Where do I sign up for that Softie
Club? :)
Mindtrekker, you bring up some very valid points. I guess I was
just hoping
that there would be a different solution, since we've seen major
characters
die and come back on other shows before. Maybe that's just me
going through
the 'anger' stage of the greiving process. ;) I certainly agree
that it's
the tension of "how are they going to get out of this,"
as opposed to "are
they going to get out of this," that is facinating. They
made such a big
deal about death being final this season, though, that the deep
dark place
seems darker than usual. Joss is a fiend, and I trust him.
It's gonna be a long, long summer...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: My Thoughts On The Gift -- darrenK, 17:07:55 05/23/01
Wed
You're right, it is a great episode. I tried rewatching it tonight
and
realised during the "previously..." section that it
would be too unbearably
painful.
As I wrote in another thread, I think it's purposeful that we
didn't hear
Buffy's conversation with Dawn, just as it's purposeful that we
didn't hear
Willow's conversation with Angel.
You see, I think it would spoil us for how Buffy comes back (if
she's
actually dead). I think she's told Dawn something that will bring
her back
and we are not to know for 3+ months. The wait is going to be
a killer.
dK
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> The power of silence -- Solitude0156, 17:23:26 05/23/01
Wed
Remember that Joss didn't let us hear what Buffy said to Dawn
in the
hallway, about their Mom, either. It's almost as if he's giving
them private
time, as sisters, even while onscreen. And so in some way, by
having Buffy's
voiceover while she falls, it seemed (to me) as if she were whispering
it
not in her sister's ears, but in mine. As if, somehow, we were
supposed to
be experiencing that just-for-us that Dawn had experienced only
a minute
before.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: The power of silence -- rowan, 18:48:37
05/23/01 Wed
I loved how they shot the discovery of Buffy's body. First, we
see the core
SG -- Giles, Xander (holding Anya), and Willow (holding Tara).
The camera
gives them private time to feel their grief.
Then Spike is introduced -- a newer part of the group, but now
truly part
('We few, we happy few, we band of brothers, for he today who
sheds his
blood with me shall be my brother, be he ne'er so vile, this day
shall
gentle his condition' -- good old Joss pulling Shakespeare in!).
Then each character gets some private time for their individual
reactions,
and finally Dawn appears.
Powerful.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Cinematically speaking (or more accurately,
viewing)... -- OnM,
21:37:50 05/23/01 Wed
...you could form a trilogy of *Fool for Love*, *The Body/Forever*
and *The
Gift*, and if you think about it, they essentially tell the whole
story of
the season.
These eps are also the most 'cinematic' of all the seasons eps,
not a
coincidence, methinks. They are also the most passionate, in the
terms that
Angel spoke of it so long ago.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: My Thoughts On The Gift -- Kerri, 19:31:15 05/23/01
Wed
But we did hear their conversation-that's what we heard at the
end-I was
just saying I would have liked to see their faces as it was said
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: My Thoughts On The Gift -- OnM, 21:51:02
05/23/01 Wed
It's a judgement call on the part of the writer/director (same
person, in
this case), but I think that if you go back and watch the scene
in the
future, you may come to find that the method he chose was actually
more
powerful.
Those words were Buffy's dying words-- she just didn't make the
final leap
off the platform yet-- it would be a physical impossibility to
speak to Dawn
while falling through the portal. But we, the audience, need to
hear them
*as she is dying*, for they are words of hope, and that's the
point-- she
gives her life to give dawn-- and by extension, us-- hope. The
events need
to coincide.
Also, there was the synchonicity between the much earlier scene
of silence
when she told Dawn of her mother's death (moment of utter despair)
to when
she uttered her final words to Dawn at the top of the platform
(the gift of
hope).
I really can't think of a single fault in that sequence, or any
way to do it
better. You've probably heard me use the phrase 'Perfect Moment
of Cinema'
in my Classic Movie column. This was one of those.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: My Thoughts On The Gift -- mundusmundi,
14:47:31 05/24/01
Thu
Agreed. It was an interesting stylistic choice. Most directors
probably
would've gone the other way.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Even the music was perfect (not
too sappy) -- Anthony8,
16:26:35 05/24/01 Thu
In scenes of this type, the background score can make or break
the dramatic
impact. The music playing as Buffy has her moment of clarity and
dives into
the portal had just the right amount of poignancy to put a finishing
touch
on the perfection of the moment for me. The music sounded familiar
(it may
have been used in another episode though I can't recall), but
wasn't too
syrupy or even sad. It really captured the resolved calm of the
Hero and the
sorrow and shock of separation you see in Dawn's face. Nice piece
of work.
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> You're absolutely right, excellent
point. The sound and
the visuals... -- OnM, 17:24:12 05/24/01 Thu
...become as one when everything is right, our brains process
it as a single
emotional reaction of high intensity, even though the sources
are entering
from two different sensory organs. Creating these moments is what
seperates
the pros from the wannabes.
I've quoted/paraphrased this before, but it applies: From *Dune*--
"Each
sound has a thought".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Even the music was perfect
(not too sappy) -- rowan,
19:45:45 05/24/01 Thu
The music was fantastic, and it was the same as what played while
Dawn had
that incredible scene where she folded her clothes carefully on
the chair &
tucked her shoes underneath (reminded me of how suicides prepare
for death).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks, rowan. -- OnM,
06:43:01 05/25/01 Fri
I knew that action she was taking with the clothes and shoes was
significant, but I couldn't quite figure it out. Your enlightenment
is
appreciated!
Mourning the dead -- Aelith,
14:10:02 05/23/01 Wed
Buffy will be dead for me and many others. I don't get UPN.
And my mourning will now double because I found this board 4 years
too late.
I agree that Buffy is the mythic hero, just as Giles called her
before
killing what's his name. This is the Sacrifice and Resurrection
part of the
cycle.
*sigh*
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Mourning the dead -- Rufus, 17:43:37 05/24/01 Thu
I can only hope that where you live that you may be able to see
Buffy. If
you have a channel that gets programs like Voyager and Andomeda,
you may
still get Buffy, if not there are ways around not getting UPN
like a tape
exchange.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Thank you Rufus -- Aelith, 19:00:54 05/24/01 Thu
You give me hope. If my cable isn't pressured into getting UPN
by this Fall,
I'll try your other suggestion. Mean while it looks like I have
a lot of
reading to catch up on.
Oh and I appologies for a slight exaggeration. I've only had my
computer
since last September.
Still......
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> You are very welcome........:):) -- Rufus, 21:16:25
05/24/01 Thu
Keep coming back.....
That little nagging pinch of
humanity -- Rufus, 14:11:32 05/23/01 Wed
We have discussed Ben at length and I have noticed how many people
say he is
weak ect, but Glory had a point when she said this last night:
Glory(to Dawn): "What do you have against old Benjy?"
Dawn: "He's a monster. At least you're up front about it."
Glory: "Just don't be so hard on the boy. He just wants to
live. Most guys
would do the same. Besides, he's probably the reason your sis
and her little
cartoon pals are still alive. That little nagging pinch of humanity
that
makes me go for the hurt instead of the kill. Lowering myself
to trade blows
with the slayer when I should have just put my fist through her
heart. It's
gotta be Ben."
Ben was weak at the end, he chose his life over the survival of
humanity.
His fight with himself has been not noticed because we didn't
see much of
it. Ben was an innocent who was created to be the vessel of a
god. His life
was gone before it began. The fact he was a doctor did have meaning.
It may
have been a bit for the pills, but I think that Ben did want to
be part of
humanity, he just was never allowed to. His longing to live isn't
new, his
choice of self over others isn't new either. But it was his contribution
of
humanity to the god that deafeated Glory. Glory would have killed
all of the
SG but it was Ben that held her back. Even though in the end he
wimped out,
Ben did indirectly help the SG in ways they never knew. Ben gave
Glory a
need to help others that she never would have had without Ben.
Ben isn't a
hero in the usual sense, but he did contribute to defeating Glory
with a
little nagging pinch of humanity.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Spoilers in my post above -- Rufus, 14:12:52 05/23/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: That little nagging pinch of humanity -- Solitude1056,
16:19:16
05/23/01 Wed
And yet, at the same time, Giles recognized what Buffy didn't
have time to
process: that despite Ben's insistence that he & Glory would go
far away...
Glory would still come back for vengeance. There's nothing that
indicates
she's no longer a God. To all indications, as a matter of fact,
she's simply
now a God who's trapped here permanently. In that sense, in a
wierd way,
killing Ben may have been an inverted act of mercy for Glory -
a character
that, like Dawn, I respected at the end for at least being honest
about her
motivations and intentions and attitude. That, and she provided
some bizarre
humorous moments that made me laugh out loud: "say, did anyone
know the
Slayer's a robot?"
As much as I don't like the idea of killing someone now because
of their
potential for evil (as the Knights intended to do to Dawn), in
Ben's case,
it's a lesser of two evils. To prevent the great risk of later
harm, harm
must be done now. Giles made that choice. Yeah, it was an ugly
choice and an
ugly consequence, but in his place? I would've done it, with just
as little
satisfaction as Giles himself displayed.
Notice, too, that Giles didn't stab Ben, nor break his neck, nor
any of the
multiple ways I'm sure the Ripper knows... he just suffocated
Ben. It
occured to me, then, as it does now, that somehow Giles - at the
same time
he had to be judge, jury, and executioner to relieve Buffy of
the
responsibility later - was also protecting Buffy of the knowledge
that this
choice had to be made. As far as the rest of the Scoobies will
ever know
(I'm guessing), they will think that Glory allowed Ben to come
forth when
she felt the body dying, and that Ben is the one who experienced
the dying.
Ben was a character shrouded, and we never knew much about his
history or
why he did what he did or how he came to be who he is. And we
only have
hints of how he felt about it; pretty opaque, even by Joss' standards.
So it
seems rather appropriate that his death was also one that will
be hidden in
mystery, as far as the rest of the Scoobies are concerned.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Thoughts on... (*Gift* spoilers) -- OnM, 20:56:13
05/23/01 Wed
Giles smothers Ben/Glory, Buffy, while in her fugue state, smothers
Dawn?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: That little nagging pinch of humanity -- Wiccagrrl,
22:44:05
05/23/01 Wed
Notice, too, that Giles didn't stab Ben, nor break his neck, nor
any of the
multiple ways I'm sure the Ripper knows... he just suffocated
Ben. It
occured to me, then, as it does now, that somehow Giles - at the
same time
he had to be judge, jury, and executioner to relieve Buffy of
the
responsibility later - was also protecting Buffy of the knowledge
that this
choice had to be made. As far as the rest of the Scoobies will
ever know
(I'm guessing), they will think that Glory allowed Ben to come
forth when
she felt the body dying, and that Ben is the one who experienced
the dying.
The thing with that is, though, that it leaves it looking like
Ben died of
his injuries. Injuries Buffy inflicted (on Glory, yes, but still...)
She
made the choice to spare him, because she couldn't bring herself
to finish
him off. Giles was able to (and made, I think, the right decision)
But, if
she had survived, would Giles have let Buffy think Ben had died
(inadvertantly) because of her actions? In Buffy's mind, I think
she saw Ben
as being in a very similar situation to Dawn. She didn't know
about Ben's
betrayal of Dawn, or about the Queller Demon. Would Giles have
eventually
have had to tell her what really happened? Once the battle was
over, would
she have accepted, maybe even been relieved, that Ben hadn't survived?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: That little nagging pinch of humanity -- Shiver, 16:35:47
05/23/01
Wed
I actually read that differently. Not that Ben's touch of humanity
was
making Glory compassionate - but that it was making her more sadistic
and
cruel. I think back to Glory's speech to Dawn in the prior ep
about humanity
and how people all over were shooting up, shooting each other,
suffering and
causing others to suffer. I think that Glory's remark about her
little bit
of humanity was meant to reflect that viewpoint, and not that
humanity was a
positive thing.
The nature of Glory -- Sam of
Seneca, 14:20:27 05/23/01 Wed
I've wondered what Glory represents since the character appeared
last year.
I believe she's a dramatic and essential component of the story
and its
universe. But I also believe that the "creator" of Glory
is saying something
else: I'm absolutely convinced that the person who originally
"wrote" Glory
has had substantial experience with someone who suffers from Borderline
Personality Disorder. Every time she appears, and last night was
no
exception, I am more certain of this. Any thoughts?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: The nature of Glory -- Rufus, 19:11:13 05/23/01 Wed
Would you like to tell me why you believe that Glory represents
a borderline
personality as opposed to say a narcissistic personality disorder?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: The nature of Glory -- Sam of Seneca, 20:32:17
05/23/01 Wed
Rage, "splitting," projection, poorly supported internal
sense of self,
"sexualizing". . . . In a sense it's 6 of one and half
a dozen of the other,
though violent mood swings and character's gender indicate BPD
is more
likely than NPD--at least as I read it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: The nature of Glory -- Mindtrekker, 22:41:30 05/23/01
Wed
I've been wondering if Glory doesn't perhaps represent the various
threats
to the show's future? Just as Dawn perhaps represents each new
day the show
continues to air.
Consider that Glory is a vain, self-absorbed being who feeds off
the mental
energies of others. A television executive perhaps?
And why the name Glory?? That's an interesting question.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: The nature of Glory -- Rufus, 22:48:51 05/23/01
Wed
Oh no, I never saw it that way...LOL....television executive.
Jackpot! (long) -- Solitude1056,
19:39:39 05/23/01 Wed
If you want to follow along, I found a nifty website here.
Basically, it helps you outline a hero's journey, using the classic
steps as
defined by Campbell & his sort. (And yes, you can enter the character
& her
life story, and it'll help you outline the story in a series of
steps.) The
following are the basic steps, divided into three movements, and
each step
includes the suggestions from the web page about how to
define/outline/identify the step. I've added notes of where I
think each
step occured in the BtVS cycle, and wow... it lines up rather
nicely, if you
think about. Any/all input is welcome! :)
DEPARTURE
1. The Call to Adventure
What stage of life is he or she in? What do you see coming next
for this
person? What would cause the person to leave this stage, to "leave
home"?
What is the person doing when the call comes? Is it an accident,
a blunder,
something planned, or hoped for? Is it anticipated or dreaded?
Pre-season 1, Buffy receives Slayer spirit/calling.
2. Refusal of the Call
Does the hero refuse the call? If so, what motivates the refusal?
Obligation
and duty, fear, a sense of inadequacy to take on the quest, a
dread or
dislike of the task to be taken on? Is the person ready to leave
home, to
accept adult status? If not, why?
Season 1-2.
3. Supernatural Aid
What special friends or helpers does the hero have? Does the hero
receive
some magical help, advice, or talisman from someone wise and benevelont?
Is
there someone who helps them prepare to leave on their journey?
Is it a one
time assistance, or will the helper (or helpers) appear throughout
the
journey? Is the helper an internal aspect of the hero?
Season 1-on. Specifically Angel, then later Whistler.
4. Crossing of the First Threshold
What world is being left; what world is being entered? What or
who is
guarding the threshold? What obstacles must the hero overcome
to truly begin
the journey? Limits of home or society, limits of personality,
limits of
perception, physical limits? What events cause the person to cross
the
threshold? What is the threshold and how does the person cross
it?
Season 2. Angelus' death & Buffy's love as obstacle.
5. Belly of the Whale
Is the person ready to transform? Does he or she enter the belly
of the
whale willingly, or is he or she thrust into or captured in that
place? What
self is being left? The self of childhood? Of incomplete or unfulfilled
adulthood? An outgrown self? What self is the person moving toward?
What
will symbolize this stage in the story?
Interlude between Season 2 & 3; Season 3.
INITIATION
1. The Road of Trials
Given this person's background and experience, what kinds of trials
or
ordeals make sense for him or her? What would be truly challenging
for this
person? What does the person fear and how will this fear be represented
to
him or her? What does the person consider to be obstacles to progress
or
growth? Does the person have some personality or character traits
that will
be mirrored back to him or her in a challenging way? What strategies,
skills, insights, known or unknown strengths or talents, etc,
does the
person use or develop to survive or resolve these trials? What
assistance,
seen or unseen does the person have or receive to deal with these
trials?
Season 4. Freshman year in college.
2. The Meeting with the Goddess
How will this step be represented in the story? Does the person
have a soul
mate, an other half? Does an all loving god or goddess, or non-gendered
but
supremely loving force make itself known to the person? Can the
person
accept and/or identify with the ultimate creative/destructive
nature of the
universe? Does the person begin to understand or experience the
union of
opposites, for example spiritual/material, good/bad, male/female,
life/death, etc.
Restless. The first slayer (assuming that "supremely loving"
does not
contradict "vicious killer").
3. Woman as the Temptress
Given this person's background and experience, what kinds of temptations
make sense for him or her? Is this person on a spiritual journey,
will he or
she experience the temptations of the flesh? Are there habitual
patterns of
thought or behavior that serve to undermine, or tempt the person
from his or
her path?
Season 5. Glory, the deathwish.
4. Atonement with the Father (Mother)
How does the person resolve him or herself with the sources of
control and
power in his or her life? What experiences mark the person as
ready to take
on the new roles of his or her transformed self? What behaviors,
attitudes,
relationships, dependencies, body parts, must be sacrificed to
achieve this?
Season 5. Joyce's illness & death.
5. Apotheosis
Given this person's background and experience, what would heaven
be for him
or her? What does this person know or experience now that is beyond
good and
evil, male and female, life and death? Does the person give him
or herself a
moment to bask in the glow of what has been achieved?
Season 5. Seeking peace/ending of fighting; knowledge that sister's
love
overrules world's needs.
6. The Ultimate Boon
Given this person's background and experience, what would be the
goal of his
or her quest? What is the ultimate boon for this person? Was there
a stated
goal of the quest? If so has it changed? Has the person learned
more or less
than he or she expected? What are the rewards of this person's
journey? What
relationship does this person now have to his or her own immortality,
gods,
or god-like figures?
End of Season 5. Buffy's death/coma/transformation, achieving
end to
fighting thus peace.
Now you get to fill in the blanks for the next season...
RETURN
1. Refusal of the Return
Does the person refuse to come back to everyday life? Is the person
concerned that their message won't be heard, or that their gifts
will be
unappreciated, or that the wisdom gained can not be communicated?
2. The Magic Flight
Are there obstacles to the person's returning to normal life?
Given this
person's background and experience, what kink or obstacle would
make sense
or be especially difficult or suiting to his or her situation?
Will these
obstacles further enlighten us about either the person, their
quest, or
their boon?
3. Rescue from Without
Must the person be rescued from their journey? Can their original
guides and
assistants still help them?
4. Crossing of the Return Threshold
What marks the person's return to normal life? What challenges
does the
person face in integrating the experience of the quest into his
or her life?
Can/does the person share his or her experiences and the wisdom
gained from
them with others? How do others receive the person upon the return?
5. Master of the Two Worlds
Given this person's background and experience, what would represent
the two
worlds in his or her life? Does this person demonstrate his or
her mastery
of both the spiritual and material, the inner and outer worlds?
6. Freedom to Live
Does the person achieve the ability let go of the fear of death,
to live in
the moment, to neither anticipate the future nor regret the past?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Jackpot! (long) -- Rufus, 22:54:48 05/23/01 Wed
Hey, thanks for the site...it's quite an experience.
I wonder if Buffy will have to go through the Rescue from Without?
That
would make for a great 2 hour season opener.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Nicely done -- darrenK, 05:48:49 05/24/01 Thu
Very cool.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Jackpot! (long) -- mundusmundi, 08:11:55 05/24/01 Thu
Great site. A good book that deals with this subject is Chris
Vogler's _The
Writer's Journey_, which takes Campbell's thesis and applies it
to feature
films. He also abbreviates and clarifies some of the stages, so
it reads a
little more smoothly. It goes like this:
Act One: 1. Ordinary World. 2. Call to Adventure. 3. Refusal of
the Call. 4.
Meeting with the Mentor. 5. Crossing the First Threshold.
Act Two: 6. Tests, Allies, Enemies. 7. Approach to the Inmost
Cave.
Act Three: 8. The Road Back. 9. Resurrection. 10. Return with
the Elixir.
Looks like our heroine is poised right before Resurrection.
Vogler also goes into a lot of detail about Jungian archetypes,
which are
interestingly applied to the Buffyverse: Hero, Mentor, Threshold
Guardian,
Herald, Shapeshifter, Shadow, Trickster. Lots of variations and
blends and
ambiguities there.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Jackpot! (long) -- Humanitas, 10:47:58 05/24/01 Thu
Wow! Great post and great site! Thanks for the tip.
Question: would you include the Scoobies under Supernatural help?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Jackpot! (long) -- Solitude1056, 12:51:14 05/24/01
Thu
I did, just because it definitely seems like the Scoobies have
always
represented the "best parts" of Buffy herself: head,
heart, mind, hand, etc,
etc.
And then I went & read purplegirl's original post on heros...
it's a bit
easier (now that we're later in the cycle) but I'm still tempted
to repost
her post just as a corrollary, except that then it'd reveal MY
post for the
pathetic knock-off that it really is.
bwahahahaha. :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Spirit, Heart and Mind -- Avatar 2001, 16:08:29
05/29/01 Tue
Willow - Spirit/Spiritus
Xander - Heart/Animus
Giles - Mind/Sophus
From -Primeval
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> hero's journey -- purplegrrl, 14:32:05 05/30/01
Wed
Well, I did have an advantage - I got to hear Christopher Vogler
lecture on
his book "A Writer's Journey" about 15 months ago. (Hey,
repost away!!)
I think it's kind of interesting that when I originally posted
about the
hero's journey I'm not sure that people saw the "big picture"
of how it
applied to the Buffyverse. Well, that and that was when Spike
was starting
to do some rather un-vampire-like things and a lot of people wanted
to
insert Spike into the hero role. We ended up with ATLtS (All Threads
Lead to
Spike).
For me, Spike's role is changeable - villain, trickster, mentor,
gate
guardian, maybe even hero. But the story is about Buffy, she is
the hero.
Now that Buffy has made the ultimate sacrifice for family, friends,
the
world, a lot more people are seeing Buffy's journey as that of
the hero. But
the "Death" in the hero's journey is not necessarily
death of the physical
body. It can be death of an idea, a way of thinking or reacting,
a view of
the world, etc.
We know Buffy will be returning from the dead (but not exactly
how). This is
similar to several Greek myths where someone goes to the underworld
to beg
the release of their loved one (the story of Orpheus is one) -
classic hero
stories. Will this be the way Buffy is returned to us? Who knows.
Maybe
Giles will make this perilous journey to retrieve Buffy. Maybe
Willow will
try (will Tara let her?). Will Buffy come back as Buffy the young
woman (no
super powers or fated duty) or Buffy the Vampire Slayer (hardcore
slayer
since "the best part of her" is now Dawn)?? Will she
gain something useful
from her experience? Will she be able to use that knowledge?
Joss has said that Buffy will be different when she returns, so
I think all
bets are off.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: hero's journey -- LoriAnn, 15:21:51
06/01/01 Fri
If Dawn is made from the best part of Buffy, does that necessarily
mean that
Buffy, herself, is whatever was left over after Dawn was made?
I doubt it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> the best part -- purplegrrl, 07:45:54
06/04/01 Mon
I think what Buffy meant when she said that Dawn was the best
part of her
was that Dawn could be a young woman without having to deal with
all the
weirdness of being the Slayer. Most of Buffy's angst and ruined
relationships stem directly from her duties as the Slayer. As
much as Buffy
has embraced her Slayer-hood, there is still a part of her that
wants to be
a normal, non-superpowered person. She sees Dawn as that part
of herself. To
Buffy that part is the best part of herself.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Mother Death/Daughter death -- darrenK, 12:54:32 05/24/01
Thu
After reading this post and the TVguide online interview with
Joss, it
occured to me that one of the reasons Joyce died was to show the
audience
that when an ordinary person dies, death is final.
Even in the Buffyverse.
But when a hero dies, that's different. Or will be.
I wonder if Angel clues the Scoobies into the resurrection of
Darla? Or if
Willow performs the resurrection from the Darkest magics?
I just hope it doesn't end up as a Pet Semetary (poor attempt
at the Stephen
King spelling)thing where Buffy is resurrected as some sort of
shuffling,drooling maggot-eaten, half-zombie. Even if she recovers
from
that, it would be too depressing. America already has too few
heros, there's
no need to trash the one we've got. dK
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Not all heroes come back. -- Solitude1056, 19:40:32
05/24/01 Thu
Doyle died - and rather poignantly, too, given the short time
he was on the
show - and as a hero, at that. So far (despite significant begging
from
fans), there's been no return. Not all heroes come back. Sheesh,
come to
think of it, just how many have died & returned, short of CPR?
(Which, in my
book, doesn't really count - that's only a few seconds, really.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> None, unless you count Angel's trip to hell
as death! -- Avatar
2001, 16:15:54 05/29/01 Tue
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Mother Death/Daughter death -- maddog, 20:19:24
05/30/01 Wed
What I found interesting in that tvguide article was how Joss
said, Buffy
will be back and we'll explain why she will be back and why Joyce
won't.
Cause that's gonna be huge at first, no matter what way she comes
back the
immediate thought is, well then why not bring Joyce back that
way too. And
then the fallout when Buffy and Dawn realize they can't bring
their mother
back that way.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Jackpot! (long) -- Justin, 15:30:15 05/29/01 Tue
Thanks Solitude. I appreciate that list. I printed it and I think
I'll end
up referencing it often for many things.
J
Joss interview on TV Guide.Com
-- rpcvc76, 01:13:34 05/24/01 Thu
I found on tv guide online, that Joss recently answered more questions
about
"The Gift", UPN move, Sarah staying, Buffy being *really*
dead and rotting
in her grave as we speak (his words), and other extra good info.
http://www.tvguide.com/newsgossip/insider/010524a.asp
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Joss interview on TV Guide.Com -- verdantheart, 06:58:39
05/24/01 Thu
Early October?! Can we wait?!
Well, at least it will give me more time to find some way of getting
UPN!
- vh
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Hey, what happened to early return in August?! --
rowan, 19:25:16
05/24/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Joss the god give hope and ... -- purplegrrl, 09:06:59 05/24/01
Thu
Tantalizing interview. Joss gives some straight answers and leaves
others
dangling just out of reach.
I read in another interview (I think BtVS the Offical Magazine)
that Joss
had the end of Season 5 planned since about Season 3.
We're not worthy!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Joss the god give hope and ... -- Humanitas, 10:58:57
05/24/01 Thu
So let me see if I have this straight:
1. Buffy is dead.
2. Death is not final.
3. There's gonna be grieving, and then a litteral resurection
of the slayer,
and all will be explained in an honest, 'real,' non-cheesy way.
AAaugh! Joss makes my brain hurt, and it is good!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Joss the god give hope and ... -- rowan,
19:30:28 05/24/01 Thu
"3. There's gonna be grieving, and then a litteral resurection
of the
slayer, and all will be explained in an honest, 'real,' non-cheesy
way."
Didn't he say rebirth? Maybe there's not a difference, but resurrection
implies something different to me than rebirth. Resurrection almost
means
restoring what was there before, but rebirth means becoming like
a child
again. I feel like there's a clue there to how this will be done
(especially
since her body is rotting, it would be gross to resurrect it),
but I'm too
thick to figure it out.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Joss the god give hope and ... --
FanMan, 21:57:54 05/24/01
Thu
Maby the clue is that Joss said the slayer would be ressurected
instead of
saying Buffy?
I'm too thick to add more...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Joss the god gives hope and ... --
purplegrrl, 08:04:47
05/25/01 Fri
And then it's always possible that Joss is using the words "rebirth"
and
"resurrection" interchangably - either to throw us for
a loop or because
that's just what comes out of his mouth at the time.
Should be an interesting ride.
Buffy, you are the weakest link...
goodbye! -- Manoon, 01:47:36 05/24/01 Thu
Of course, I'm only kidding...
hmmmm, so who IS the weakest link, then?
(no, it's NOT Tara!)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Weakest links -- LoriAnn, 05:39:10 05/24/01 Thu
Each of the Scoobies is weak in some way or other, even Buffy.
To name one
or another the "weakest link" would be to ignore their
strengths and,
particularly, their strengths combined. Each character performs
a function
in the Scoobies and in the structure of the stories. Anya, for
instance, is
usually comic relief, but this week, although her take-the-
bull-by-the-horns attitude irritated almost everyone, it was she
who got
things off dead center when all anyone could do was get upset
over killing
or not killing Dawn. In her own way, she took Willow's role from
the
previous week. She had the strength to be practical when practicality
was
what was called for.
Each of the SG functions in ways to add to the whole, and the
whole is
greater than the sum of the parts. If there is a weakness, it
is an overall
weakness and probably that they all care too much.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> I like that answer! Yes I do! :) -- Rob, 07:58:02
05/24/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> hmmm -- Manoon, 09:05:54 05/24/01 Thu
Not really what I meant though. I chose the word 'weakest' cos
I'm a Brit
and you just got our dreadful show with that dreadful woman -
i am SO SO
SORRY!!
anyway, what I was really getting at is many people post often
about who
their FAVOURITE characters are, and why. I was just curious to
know the
other side of the coin.. who is NOT liked (or better: who is LEAST
liked),
and why?
Just as it is a good thing to have favourite characters among
the buffyverse
in general, it's equally valid to not warm to others. It's not
an insult to
the show, to the meanings behind the metaphors we love to interpret,
or to
anyone else's posts...
For example, I'm not a huge fan of Spike's dodgy English accent!
Or Willow
when she witters (tho Assertive Willow is cool). And I feel there
is so much
more Xander can do, so why make him so goofy all the time? I don't
relate
very well to him because of this.
Thats the kind of thing I was getting at, I guess
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: hmmm -- Rob, 09:15:38 05/24/01 Thu
IMO, the weakest link was Riley...I always thought he was whiney
and a
little too possessive over Buffy. That jealousy over Angel was
ridiculous.
Over all, his personality just annoyed me.
But luckily, he was voted off, in a manner of speaking. You are
the weakest
link. Goodbye, Iowa! LOL.
And so right now I love the entire cast to bits and pieces!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: hmmm -- FanMan, 15:07:47 05/24/01
Thu
I agree Rily screwed up; Buffy's love is for everyone. She loves
Angel? no
jealosy from me, I would be happy if Buffy were my friend, even
a smile
would make my day......Sarah has a beutifull smile! Rily was loved
by Buffy,
he complained she did not love him enough.
I would be satisfied with just a smile from Buffy...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: hmmm -- verdantheart, 07:47:25 05/25/01
Fri
How about Spike with a southern accent (as was contemplated)?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> maybe -- Manoon, 08:12:39 05/25/01
Fri
or a nice French accent... or an Indian one! :)
I guess it's not so bad (that means that I am used to it) Druscilla's
UK
voice is MILES more dodgy than his!
Gaining Knowledge/understanding
-- Kerri, 07:47:50 05/24/01 Thu
Bear with me her:
Charaters seem to gain a certain amount of understanding from
being removed
from reality, soctiety, etc. I guess the best way to explain is
by giving
examples:
1)Crazy people: Gain a new perspective by being removed from reality.
Only
people who can see the key. Also there is a sort of wisdom that
seems to
come with being crazy-ex)Tara calling Giles a killer in The Gift.
2) The Desert: The desert is removed from society. It is here
we see the
Spirit quest and the knowledge gained in Restless.
3) Dreams: Again being removed from reality. Well the best example
of corse
is restless, also Buffy has had many dreams that serve as prophesies-ex)
in
season 2 Angel dying, Hush, etc.
4) Death: seems to be as removed as person can get, completely
seperate from
life itself. In Prophesy Girl Buffy died for a few seconds and
when she came
back there was something different: Xander tells her she's still
weak and
she say no she feel good, strong, there was some enlightenment
that came
from that moment of death.
I'd have to imagine a great deal of knowledge, understanding,
enlightenment
will come to Buffy as a result of her death. However, this may
not be
knowledge meant to be in this world, and it will be interesting
to see how
Buffy is changed when she returns.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Gaining Knowledge/understanding -- Rufus, 12:49:27 05/24/01
Thu
I find that the insane frighten us because even though removed
from reality
they often say things that make complete sense. You can't get
much further
from reality than death. What will Buffys experience of death
be? With Angel
we know he was removed from this reality but he didn't "die"....will
she see
her mother...not want to come back? In FFL Buffy feared the death
that has
chased her from season one. In dying that is the one fear she
will
conquer....you can't fear death when you know what is to come....unless
you
went somewhere very unpleasant.
Read this: Joss' interview w/
TV Guide about what's gonna happen next
season... -- Rob, 09:09:39 05/24/01 Thu
Here's the link where I got the interview from:
http://www.tvguide.com/newsgossip/insider/
-------------------------------------------------------
TVGO: First off, is Buffy really dead?
Whedon: Yes. She's rotting in her grave even as we speak.
TVGO: But Sarah's coming back?
Whedon: Yes.
TVGO: You can understand how some people might be confused...
Whedon: Yes.
TVGO: Are you worried about alienating viewers by bringing her
back from the
dead? I mean, we saw the tombstone.
Whedon: Yes, I'm always worried about that. The point is, you
have to take
it seriously and pay it homage and make it as hard and strange
for the
people in the show as it is for the audience to accept. Then you
earn it.
TVGO: If you bring Buffy back, then why couldn't you also bring
back Joyce?
Whedon: You could, but we'll explain why.
TVGO: What's the craziest Buffy resurrection scenario you've heard
in the
last 48 hours?
Whedon: Buffy shows up in an alternate universe, but I don't think
that's a
good idea.
TVGO: You already know how this will be resolved, then?
Whedon: We've had next season planned out for a long time - before
we even
knew we were changing networks.
TVGO: Do you think, in retrospect, it's a little confusing? First
Buffy
leaves the WB, and now Buffy is dead. Some fans are wondering
if the show is
over.
Whedon: It's our job this summer to make people aware that Buffy
- starring
Sarah Michelle Gellar as Buffy - is coming back on UPN next fall.
And I'm
just gonna keep saying it to everybody I meet and every chance
I get, and
UPN is going to start advertising it today. We'll get the word
out.
TVGO: Do you think the WB purposely added that farewell message
at the end
of the episode to further confuse people?
Whedon: You know, it was sort of incredibly classy and slightly
underhanded.
The whole "Series Finale" thing has been a little cheesy,
but actually, I
was pretty touched when I saw the message. The fact of the matter
is they
didn't say, "Goodbye. It's over." They said, "Thank
you." So, at the end of
the day, I thought that was kind of nice.
TVGO: If and when the day comes that Sarah leaves the show, would
you
retitle it Dawn the Vampire Slayer?
Whedon: What I would do with it is hard to say, but that's certainly
a show
I'd watch. Michelle [Trachtenberg] is a powerhouse. I have the
best ensemble
that I could ever hope to work with. It could happen, but if it
did, it
wouldn't be for years because Sarah's coming back.
TVGO: Did anyone else die during the climax? Anya looked like
she was in
pretty bad shape.
Whedon: She's OK, she made it.
TVGO: What was up with Giles killing Ben? Is that going to be
the beginning
of a trend?
Whedon: No, that's just the thing he had to do. And you know,
Giles will be
recurring next year instead of a regular because [Anthony Stewart
Head is]
going to live in England. We're working on a BBC [spinoff] show
for [that
character]. So, it's a side of Giles you're more likely to see
on his show
than you are on Buffy. But, it's not like he's going to become
an evil
killer or anything.
TVGO: Does Ben's death mean Glory is dead too?
Whedon: Yeah, it does.
TVGO: Whose voice was telling Spike to go rescue Dawn? It was
a very Star
Wars-type moment.
Whedon: It was Willow... Just yet another example of how Willow's
power is
increasing.
TVGO: Given that Buffy's death factored into Angel's finale, won't
you have
to kick off the season with some type of WB/UPN crossover?
Whedon: No, I really won't. And I'm not entirely sure that either
network
would want to. Not that Angel won't be dealing with the idea of
Buffy's
death and her rebirth, but the fact is, he's on his own now. He's
at the big
scary network by himself and he's going to have other very pressing
matters
to deal with.
TVGO: So you won't pick up Angel next fall where the season finale
left off?
Whedon: No. Like we usually do, it will be a few months later.
TVGO: Do you know the date of Buffy's two-hour premiere?
Whedon: I don't know the date. I believe we're looking at early
October, but
nothing's been set.
TVGO: Will Amber Benson (Tara) be added to the opening credits
next season?
Whedon: No, Amber's going to stay at a recurring status. But she
will, like
this year, be in most of the shows.
TVGO: Any other cast changes on Buffy?
Whedon: Apart from Giles becoming a recurring character? No.
-----------------------------------------------------
A lot of information to process! LOL. I personally am even more
intrigued
about how they'll bring Buffy back than before. I'm especially
interested to
know why Buffy could be brought back, but Joyce can't.
And I'm also still wondering why Amber won't be in the opening
credits...James got in the opening credits only 2 or 3 weeks after
the chip
was implanted, Michelle, on her 2nd episode had her name in the
credits,
Mark midseason did also, Anya got onto the credits finally this
season...Why
not Amber already?
Anyway, any of you guys have any thoughts on the stuff I raised
questions
about or anything in the article in general?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Oops! I made a little goof... -- Rob, 09:11:20 05/24/01
Thu
I said all the actors' names for getting on opening credits, but
said "Anya"
instead of "Emma." Not a big deal, but just thought
I should fix that... :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Oops! I made a little goof... -- Manoon, 09:18:20
05/24/01 Thu
So Tara ISN'T going to be on the main credits, she's again resigned
to
'recurring character' mode, but will be in most of the episodes..
why? I
don't get it?
Hasn't she earned full status already? I was convinced she had
a greater
part to play next season (although thinking about it, she did
feature well
from the second half of series 5 onwards) to be the light to Willows
coming
darkness... now I am a little less confident :(
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Come on, Joss! We want more Tara!!! -- Rob,
09:29:40 05/24/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Recurring Tara -- Humanitas, 11:11:06 05/24/01
Thu
I'm not sure, but I think there are usually contract issues involved
in this
sort of thing. Anyone know?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Don't get it. Wish the interviewer had asked
the obvious followup ?
-- Wiccagrrl, 21:47:12 05/24/01 Thu
Why???
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Don't get it. Wish the interviewer
had asked the obvious
followup ? -- purplegrrl, 08:41:35 05/25/01 Fri
Maybe recurring character status is at Amber's request. She has
other
interests. She recently filmed an independent film (with James
Marsters if I
remember correctly). And she is supposed to write a Buffy comic
for Dark
Horse.
Maybe it's just a case of too many irons in too many fires and
she doesn't
want to stretch herself too thin.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Don't get it. Wish the interviewer
had asked the obvious
followup ? -- verdantheart, 09:20:36 05/25/01 Fri
That's Chance, a comedy, classified as in production at imdb.com,
for those
interested.
Themes for Next Season (spoilery
and long-winded) -- mundusmundi, 10:14:23
05/24/01 Thu
POTENTIALLY SPOILERY AND TEDIOUSLY LONG-WINDED ;)....
This year, like all Buffy years, we've seen some recurring themes:
family,
mortality, duality, sacrifice, and other motifs mentioned by many
of you in
many excellent posts. Any ideas for what might emerge next season?
Here are
a few personal thoughts:
1. Disunity. Now that the Slayer is gone, however temporarily,
what happens
to the rest of the group? We've seen this play out before -- the
start of
B3, with Buffy's self-imposed exile and friction-packed return,
and B5, with
college-life and the Initiative creating barriers between the
Gang -- but
this may be the strongest test yet on the glue that holds the
Scoobs'
together.
2. The Evil Within. Many of the gang have dark sides that have
the potential
to be unleashed. Willow's witchery, Anya (still brooding over
her line from
_Restless_: "This'll be a big year for vengeance"),
Giles's Ripperocity,
Spike, natch. Even Buffy, when she returns: What will her moral
compass be?
3. Cheating (and Cheapening) Death. Some have already expressed
the
understandable worry that B's return, however it's done, will
cheapen the
sacrifice. Knowing Joss -- creatively-speaking, not personally
;) -- he will
likely address this issue within the show itself. That it's going
to happen,
one way or another, makes it seem likely to be a big theme, maybe
*the*
theme next season. And finally...
4. Duty. Will Buffy still be the Slayer? Will she still want to
be? Will she
have to contend with a new Slayer and what will her response be?
(I know,
I've read some folks claim that for whatever reason a new Slayer
can't or
won't be activated, but frankly I don't see Joss letting the opportunity
pass by.)
Looking forward to your ideas, and to next season....
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded) --
Malandanza,
10:56:21 05/24/01 Thu
Except for the disunity issue, I agree with everything you've
said.
Unity: I think that Buffy's death will serve to bring the Scoobies
closer
together. There is potential for chaos (consider Xander's comment
about
smart girls being sexy and Willow's flirtatious response) but
disunity has
been done. Even in the Xander/Willow area, as soon as Anya and
Xander are
married, the sublimated romance between them will finally be at
an end. And
there's dawn to consider -- what happens to her? will Child Protective
Services finally track down Hank (and if they do, why would he
move to
Sunnydale?) or will she end up a ward of the court? She could
be adopted by
a married couple (like Anya and Xander), but I don't really see
another way
to keep her on the show. More than anything else, Dawn's continued
presence
would keep the group together. (By the way, even if Buffy returns,
she'll be
legally dead and unable to gain custody of Dawn).
Evil Within: Particularly where Willow is concerned. Previously,
Buffy, Oz
and Tara have expressed grave concerns about her magic -- but
now that
Willow's magic has been instrumental in saving the world, they
can no longer
argue about its danger. essentially, she has carte blanche to
continue to
delve into Darkest Magicks. I don't think Buffy will return dark
(although I
would definately be interested in seeing a darker Buffy), instead,
I think
she will return as an even purer version of herself.
Cheating/Cheapening Death: It's hard to imagine how they could
do the series
with Buffy dead but keeping SMG on the show -- Ok, they could
do a
retrospective one week, some dream sequences, the Buffybot (yuck!),
they
could even have an episode where the Scoobies sit around wondering
"What
Would Buffy Do?", then have a seance to find out. But, eventually,
they have
to bring her back -- and bring her back in such a way that it
is clear that
Buffy's is a one-time only ressurrection. However she returns,
her sacrifice
has been cheapened. Balancing this is that we might get insights
into the
afterlife in the Buffyverse when she returns from the "undiscovered
country." And she becomes a hero like Heracles or Odysseus
once she's
complete her trip to the underworld.
Duty: I'd like to see a return of Buffy without her powers. I
have a problem
with yet another slayer being called and Buffy still keeping her
powers --
three slayers? Actually, I think another slayer will be called
-- here's
why: Initially, Buffy had the connection with the First Slayer
-- she lost
it when she briefly died (but kept the powers). Kendra then had
that
connection. At this point, if Buffy had died, another slayer would
not have
been called. Kendra's death passed the connection on to Faith,
who, because
she did not have Kendra's training or Buffy's force of spirit,
was more
susceptible to the influence of the First Slayer, and, thus, a
darker
slayer. Buffy reconnected to the First Slayer in season 4, severing
Faith's
connection in the process -- now Buffy has the dark impulses while
Faith has
a chance to atone. If Faith dies, I don't think a new slayer will
be called
(Buffy has stolen Faith's birthright)-- but I do think that Buffy's
death
will call the next slayer. Perhaps Buffy will be the watcher for
her new
protege.
Oh, and you're not long-winded on this board until you reach your
5th page
of writing :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded)
-- Rob, 12:29:38
05/24/01 Thu
I found your comments very interesting, but I have a few problems
with them.
Firstly, I don't agree that it cheapens Buffy's sacrifice were
she to come
back. Or it depends on how it is done. I will reserve my judgment
for next
season. However, considering that Joss has had the entire outcome
planned
for a long time, I see Buffy's death as a predestined occurence
that is
necessary for her to complete her hero's journey. Many heroes
in mythology
had to go down into the "belly of the beast," i.e. die
to be reborn stronger
and greater. When they sacrifice themselves, they do not know
they will be
able to return. Buffy jumped with no knowledge for all we know
that she has
any way of returning. Therefore, her return I think should be
considered a
reward for this self-sacrifice, not a cheapening.
I also disagree with your opinion that Buffy's death will call
on another
slayer, although we'll have to wait to see for that as well. We
have seen on
the show that the Slayer powers are not a single force that occupies
one
girl, then goes onto another when that one dies, evidenced by
the fact that
when Buffy was revived, she retained the Slayer powers even when
Kendra was
called. After Kendra's death, Faith had the slayer powers. I don't
believe
her "going bad" prevents Faith from being the one to
call the next slayer,
for two reasons: (1) Faith has begun to redeem herself now. (2)
Presumably,
only one girl can pass on the powers when she dies, or from now
on there
will be 2 slayers. If it were anything else, Buffy could be killed,
revived,
killed, revived, etc just in order to bring forth a whole army
of Slayers,
each one of whom would have the power to call a slayer themselves.
I don't
think it could possibly work that way, or it would have already
been done.
No, I believe each slayer can die only once in order to fit into
the rules
of then calling another slayer. If they are revived, they fit
outside the
accepted rules. They can, as Buffy was up till now, continue to
fight and
protect the world as the Slayer, but their death will not call
another.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Spoiler from another source... -- Wisewoman,
14:52:58 05/24/01
Thu
How consistent is Joss within the various segments of the Buffyverse?
The
reason I'm asking is that I read an interview where he spoke about
writing a
Buffy-related comic book that would take place 300 years in the
future, and
centre around the FIRST slayer to be called since Buffy Summers
(which right
there is inconsistent, because of Kendra and Faith...)
Of course, he could just have been joking, but under what circumstances
would there be no need for a new slayer for 300 years? Buffy comes
back
immortal and lives that long? All the vampires die of some sort
of plague
and there's no need for a slayer? Gotta love that Joss, he always
keeps me
guessing... ;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Buffy returning -- FanMan, 16:35:14
05/24/01 Thu
"You think you know what you are, what is to come. You haven't
even begun"
Buffy is on the path of self/slayer discovery that other slayers
chose not
to follow or did not survive long enough to start. She has shown
a
willingness to seek more than the lameness of the WC line of the
Slayers
being servants of the Watchers. Her story is a modern eqivilant
of the
mythic hero stories of legend. Ressurecting a slayer who is simply
a warrior
would be cheap; Buffy has allways presurved her humanity and now
she has
moved on to the spiritual aspects of slayerness so she is a heroic
figure
beyond the normal heroism of the "average slayer" and
ressurecting her is
not cheap. I am curious how it will be done and if it will be
slightly
cheesy, however since Joss planned this for two years he has had
a loooooong
time to figure out somthing that will make sense...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy returning -- Rufus, 17:27:36
05/24/01 Thu
Hey! Maybe that's what the chees man really represents....all
the fan
complaints of cheesy endings.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Cheese man was a warning
that there would be
"something cheesy going on" -- FanMan, 19:02:16 05/24/01
Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Buffy returning -- rowan,
19:22:26 05/24/01 Thu
Yes, I thought the cheese man was Joss's little joke on us and
our fear of
cheesiness (inexplicably spelled with a z as he said in one interview).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> future slayer -- purplegrrl, 09:19:07
05/25/01 Fri
Concerning the Slayer comic Joss is writing for Dark Horse:
As I understand it there is a point in the future inwhich vampires,
demons,
etc., no longer exist in this dimension - due to a plague or magic
happening
or ??? (I don't think this has been detailed yet). Because of
this lack of
evil that needs fighting, Slayers are no longer being called/chosen
and the
Watchers Council turns into a pack of "jibbering idiots."
About 300 years in
the future, vampires start reappearing in this dimension. A Slayer
is
called, but she has no training and no real concept of what her
role is.
And then the story unfolds.
The first installment should be out soon - if I remember correctly.
Check
your local comic store.
(BTW, I think Joss saying she is the first Slayer called since
Buffy is just
some convenient shorthand so we understand where the story is
coming from.
It would be harder to grasp if Joss said she was the first Slayer
called
since Slayer X (a Slayer some time after Faith). Or maybe Buffy
really will
be resurrected as immortal!! With Joss you never know! ;) )
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded)
-- Jack
Shadow, 21:48:25 05/24/01 Thu
It seems to me that one interpretation of "death is your
gift" is just that
- by dieing Buffy can create other slayers. She has, after all,
done this
once, so there is really no reason it couldn't happen again. Somehow
the
magical rules that create slayers require something arbitrary,
like the
heart to stop or perhaps even the soul to leave the body. Apparently
this
happened to Buffy, with the result that Kendra was activated.
I could see a
plot line like this:
a)Buffy comes back from the underworld, maybe via the Valet. It
would
certainly seem that Angel is owed a life. Joss said it was cheesy
and this
is - laid out in advance but probably too easy.
b)Another slayer in some far off place has been activated, say,
China or
Europe. Faith is still a slayer.
c)Buffy is a plain old person now, but Dawn is still the Key,
whatever that
means, Willow is a big-time witch, etc.
d)Buffy feels really really out of it; normality is a huge bore
and she has
no real life anyway
e)Buffy takes up with Spike for solace
f)Buffy gets vamped by Spike at her request and cursed by Willow
g)Buffy is back as the vampire vampire slayer. At this point,
I don't think
there is much likelyhood of her ever being really happy again.
h)Season 7 ends with Buffy really dieing in some act that has
the effect of
wiping out all vampires, including her and Spike. Angel has become
human by
this point - he has an easy way out via the demon blood. We pretty
much know
that this is how Joss intends to end the series to set up the
background for
the comic.
The alternative way to run it is she is still a slayer when she
comes back,
just like the first time. Different stories follow, but we still
end up with
the same end at the close of season seven (big mojo wipes out
all vampires).
In any case, I've never understood where all this "single
line of slayers"
stuff comes from other than the "one girl in the world"
pitch line.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Army of Slayers -- Malandanza, 20:03:53
05/25/01 Fri
"I also disagree with your opinion that Buffy's death will
call on another
slayer, although we'll have to wait to see for that as well. We
have seen on
the show that the Slayer powers are not a single force that occupies
one
girl, then goes onto another when that one dies, evidenced by
the fact that
when Buffy was revived, she retained the Slayer powers even when
Kendra was
called. After Kendra's death, Faith had the slayer powers. I don't
believe
her "going bad" prevents Faith from being the one to
call the next slayer,
for two reasons: (1) Faith has begun to redeem herself now. (2)
Presumably,
only one girl can pass on the powers when she dies, or from now
on there
will be 2 slayers. If it were anything else, Buffy could be killed,
revived,
killed, revived, etc just in order to bring forth a whole army
of Slayers,
each one of whom would have the power to call a slayer themselves.
I don't
think it could possibly work that way, or it would have already
been done.
No, I believe each slayer can die only once in order to fit into
the rules
of then calling another slayer. If they are revived, they fit
outside the
accepted rules. They can, as Buffy was up till now, continue to
fight and
protect the world as the Slayer, but their death will not call
another."
I agree that only one girl's death will call the next slayer.
I do not think
it is reasonable to assume that no slayer has ever been revived
before
Buffy. If each slayer's death called another slayer, we should
have more
than two, perhaps dozens (or even an "Army of Slayers,"
if some clever, but
evil, watcher decided to revive his slayer over and over for the
good of the
world). The slayer powers, once granted, cannot be revoked --
hence Buffy
still possesed all the slayer abilities after her death. But the
ability to
call the next slayer passes to the next slayer. thus, there is
only one
"legitimate" slayer, the one whose death calls the next
-- the one with the
connection, not to TPTB, but to the First Slayer.
The First Slayer is not about saving the world, she is about death.
She
sleeps on a bed of bones (presumably, not vampire bones) and her
gift is
death. Far from Faith having "gone bad," I believe Faith
was closer to the
First Slayer than Buffy ever was. Until those pesky moral ambiguities
settled in, Faith was all about the slaying. After the joining
ritual, I
believe Buffy inadvertantly reconnected herself to the First Slayer,
and
severed Faith's ties, reestablishing Buffy as the legitimate slayer.
Thus,
Buffy's death, rather than Faith's, will call the next slayer.
Supporting
this view is the manner in which Buffy began acting this season
-- much more
in touch with the darker side of slaying. There were some definite
Faith-like moments this season (hunting vamps, then snuggling
up next to
Riley, torching the Vamp Brothel and massacring the vamps, casually
snapping
the neck of a demon).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded)
-- rowan,
19:20:07 05/24/01 Thu
"Unity: I think that Buffy's death will serve to bring the
Scoobies closer
together. There is potential for chaos (consider Xander's comment
about
smart girls being sexy and Willow's flirtatious response) but
disunity has
been done. Even in the Xander/Willow area, as soon as Anya and
Xander are
married, the sublimated romance between them will finally be at
an end. And
there's dawn to consider -- what happens to her? will Child Protective
Services finally track down Hank (and if they do, why would he
move to
Sunnydale?) or will she end up a ward of the court? She could
be adopted by
a married couple (like Anya and Xander), but I don't really see
another way
to keep her on the show."
I agree. I think there will be strong unity (which will now include
Spike,
although some members of SG will have fears of him reverting if
chip fails).
I too puzzle over Dawn. If ASH is in less eps, I don't see Giles
as a
guardian. Plus, you wonder if DCS would give a 15 year old girl
as a ward to
a 45 year old single man. Xander and Anya appear to be the best
possibility
for guardians, other than Hank. I suspect if Hank is found and
Dawn must
reside elsewhere, Spike will go along for the ride. Or perhaps
Dawn will
rebel and run. I can visualize Dawn wanting to live in Spike's
crypt and
stay one step ahead of DCS, but I imagine the entire SG will want
her to
have as normal a life as possible, which would not include Spike's
crypt.
I wonder if Joss will spend any time on Dawn's situation at all,
or if S6
will start with it all as accomplished fact?
"(By the way, even if Buffy returns, she'll be legally dead
and unable to
gain custody of Dawn)."
Assuming that they actually reported her death to the authorities!
(guess
they had to in order to get a death certificate to bury her).
I wonder what
that scene looked like. "Umm, officer, you see, there was
this portal...."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded)
-- Anthony*,
19:51:10 05/24/01 Thu
Hey, it's Sunnydale--wouldn't you like to have a copy of its daily
obituaries?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> And what the heck happened to the dragon?!
-- rowan, 19:54:11
05/24/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> This is the story I heard... --
OnM, 15:45:57 05/26/01 Sat
He paid a visit to a couple of studios in Hollywood, but found
that nobody
wanted to hire him because it was cheaper to do a CGI dragon than
to feed
him every day. (Eating one of the studio heads in a fit of pique
didn't help
his case either).
Rumor now has it he's off to Japan to see what Godzilla is up
to.
(Well, inquiring minds want to know, you know?)
;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded) --
rowan, 19:10:24
05/24/01 Thu
"1. Disunity. Now that the Slayer is gone, however temporarily,
what happens
to the rest of the group? We've seen this play out before -- the
start of
B3, with Buffy's self-imposed exile and friction-packed return,
and B5, with
college-life and the Initiative creating barriers between the
Gang -- but
this may be the strongest test yet on the glue that holds the
Scoobs'
together."
Unfortunately, I have no brilliant ideas to offer, other than
to speculuate
on disunity. I thought that S4 was about disharmony & the drifting
apart of
the SG. I'm speculating that Joss would probably not repeat that
in quite
the same way.
Joss has said in interviews that the season will show the SG "without
buffers" and having to realize they are the adults (and perhaps
aren't doing
such a great job at it). We also know that ASH is going to be
in less eps
since he's moving back to the UK. This also fits in with the "no
buffer"
idea. I'm wondering if the SG will stay close together, but will
encounter
alot of obstacles in dealing with adulthood that they will have
to solve
together. My gut feeling is that they will live according to Buffy's
words
-- love each other & take care of each other.
If Buffy doesn't return immediately, a major test will be dealing
with Dawn.
Who does she live with? After all, everyone else is independent,
but a 15
year old minor must have a guardian.
Also, Anya and Xander are planning a weddding. This is another
major
transition to adulthood which the group will encounter. And after
marriage
comes...babies!
Looks like it could be a very interesting season.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded)
-- Solitude1056,
20:13:33 05/24/01 Thu
There were also comments, about a month or two ago?, in some Joss
interview
that AH has asked for some time off next season... so there will
be a
stretch of 4 or 5 episodes in which she'll be gone. I don't recall
him
saying why or how or even what for in terms of AH herself. I think
the
comment was more to describe his willingness as a boss to allow
his
employees freedom to explore other avenues instead of chaining
them to the
set for all 22 episodes.
But... it still raises some issues about who could be there for
Dawn, and I
can't help but wonder why no one has suggested Tara? She's (supposedly)
a
year older than the Scoobies, and has no ties to home. Xander
& Anya might
be potential material if it weren't for the fact that Anya clearly
gets on
Dawn's nerves sometimes, Anya's not used to sisters or sharing
space other
than with Xander...
If Buffy is just "gone" one day & that's that - no official
word - then Dawn
could feasibly stay with Tara (assuming Hank stays absent - hey,
it's more
of that "what does Joss have against Dads?" routine).
As far as Child
Protection Services would be concerned, Dawn is going to school
and appears
to be fed & washed regularly. They'd have no reason to question
it
otherwise, since the last word was that the authorities would
be contacted
if Dawn were not "brought into line," so to speak -
implying that good Dawn
= no CPS. If Dawn straightens up & flies right, and Buffy's absence
isn't
mentioned to any officials, then I'd see no reason that CPS would
have to
question Dawn's home condition.
That'd be my suggestion on how it could be handled, since I don't
get the
impression that our faithful Scooby family takes too kindly to
outsiders
pushing in on their affairs... especially those who tend towards
the
boneheaded end of the authoritative spectrum (think Synder).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Themes for Next Season (spoilery and long-winded)
-- Isabel,
21:09:05 05/27/01 Sun
I've been wondering about what's going to happen to Dawn too.
I don't think you can have a grave without a death certificate.
Wouldn't her
friends consider it a violation of her memory to just tote away
her body and
hide her death? "She saved the world a lot," is that
the epitath of someone
you stick in a car trunk and bury in the woods? It's not like
they're afraid
she wouldn't be buried in hallowed ground because she's a suicide.
Yes, she
saved the world, but the authorities won't understand that.
As for not telling anyone that Buffy's dead and having the Scoobies
take
Dawn, difficult to manage. Do they revive the Buffybot to be Dawn's
'official' guardian and have Willow and Tara move in with them?
1) The 'Bot
would have to not be too badly damaged by Glory and repairable
by Willow. 2)
They'd have to think of it very soon after Buffy's death. They
looked too
torn up with grief to be thinking about much. Plus, none of them
would be
able to publicly mourn her if that were the case.
Let's face it, no matter what we, as viewers, know or think we
know, to the
Scoobies Buffy is not coming back so there is no reason to conceal
her death
so her legal identity is preserved with the authorities. Maybe
if Buffy made
out a will naming one of her friends as Dawn's guardian if something
happened to her Social Services might allow it, depending on who
it is. I
agree that a 15 year girl would not be allowed to live with a
single man in
his 40's, no matter how respectable. And what about a (seemingly)
25 year
old single man who is also an immigrant, unemployed, and homeless
with a
strange allergy to sunlight. NOT! Willow and Tara are both in
college and
how can they both go to college and take care of Dawn? Xander
and Anya,
despite possible personality clashes, are the closest thing the
Scoobies
have as guardians of Dawn.
Isabel
Article from the Washington Post
-- Solitude1056, 10:28:30 05/24/01 Thu
Nyah-Nyah, UPN: WB Makes Things Tough for 'Buffy' Fans
By Lisa de Moraes
We know that Buffy didn't really die at the close of Tuesday night's
season
finale -- because the WB network is still trying real hard to
kill her off
before her move to UPN in the fall.
Z WB is about to announce that it won't run "Buffy the Vampire
Slayer" on
Tuesday nights this summer after all.
"Buffy" has been a Tuesday TV institution for years.
Instead, WB will bounce "Buffy" around its prime-time
schedule like a
ping-pong ball all summer long. The "Buffy" spinoff
"Angel," now airing
Tuesdays at 9, will be yanked off the night, too, and sent packing
to
Mondays at 9, where it's supposed to go this fall.
The idea here is to break "Buffy" fans of their Tuesday
viewing habit before
the hit drama moves to UPN this fall. UPN execs announced to advertisers
last week that the network would keep "Buffy" in its
longtime Tuesday slot
so as to keep viewer confusion to a minimum when the show switches
networks.
WB, however, wants them to be confused. Earlier this month, after
haggling
for months with the show's production house, 20th Century Fox
TV, over the
price tag, WB lost "Buffy" to rival UPN. Last week,
during WB's unveiling of
its prime-time schedule for the 2001-02 TV season, an exec stood
up in front
of hundreds of advertisers and said the network wasn't broken
up over the
loss because the show was beginning to skew a tad old -- not enough
teen
viewers for WB. To prove the point, the WB exec announced that
"Buffy" would
be replaced in the fall with the series "Gilmore Girls,"
whose star Alexis
Bledel, 18, is a full five years younger than "Buffy"
lead Sarah Michelle
Gellar.
(Gellar must have seen this one coming; she had, after all, turned
24 last
month, which puts her more than halfway into WB's 12-34 target
demo with her
best years behind her.)
At that same presentation, WB announced that it would run Wednesday
movie
night this summer, using titles from parent company AOL Time Warner's
considerable flick library. But WB brass apparently changed their
minds
after UPN suits announced a couple of days later that they had
bought not
only "Buffy" but also "Roswell" -- another
WB drama produced by 20th Century
Fox -- and scheduled them both on Tuesday night next season. This
week,
however, WB has decided to make its summer Wednesday movie its
summer
Tuesday movie instead.
So, on June 4, "Angel" makes the move to Mondays, replacing
the UPN-bound
"Roswell," which WB will not air in reruns this summer
for reasons too
obvious to explain.
WB's "Flix From the Frog" movie night will debut June
5 with the broadcast
of the feature film "I Know What You Did Last Summer,"
which, not
coincidentally, co-starred Gellar -- when she was much younger,
of course.
Then, on June 6, "Buffy" gets booted to her first stop
on the schedule:
Wednesdays at 9, replacing "Felicity."
A WB spokesman said the change of plans on the summer movie night
wasn't
about messing with "Buffy" but "really about inventory
and getting 'Gilmore
Girls' over there [on Tuesday] at the right time."
And noted various TV industry executives, if WB really wanted
to deep-six
"Buffy," they'd putting it on Sunday night.
That hasn't happened -- yet.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> The WB is only proving how fearful they should be... --
Rob, 10:45:29
05/24/01 Thu
Logically, if the WB is so certain that "Buffy" is for
an older demographic
now, and that it was the right choice to leave it behind, why
are they
bothering to move it to Wednesday nights at 9? If they were so
certain that
their channel was mostly based on teen ratings and they are equally
certain
that many teens stopped watching the show, they would not need
to lamely
attempt to break up the viewers' Tuesday night Buffy ritual. These
teens,
according to them, have already stopped watching and thus do not
need any
further discouragement. Hey, it's their logic, not mine! What
they are
actually proving is that they are fearful that the people in their
key
demographic will bail on them and move over to UPN.
The fact is that Tuesday night at 8 is Buffy night. People who
watch the WB
have known that for years. Therefore, in great likelihood, those
who do not
know Buffy has moved, will turn on the television, see that teeny-bopper
show, "Gilmore Girls" and turn off in disgust. At least,
that's what I'm
hoping! If they were smart, they would have done something like
keep
"Roswell," and put it on up against "Buffy."
A cult hit like "Buffy," which
many "Buffy" fans watch, that could have cut into some
of Buffy's viewers.
Instead, the WB let go of 2 of their big cult hits, and I predict
that their
ratings will plummet a great deal because of that. The only one
left now is
"Angel," which, when you think about it, is aimed at
an even slightly older
demographic than "Buffy." After all, none of the characters
are in college.
Hell, the main character is over 200 years old! It is also darker.
Why then
place it after the feel-good family show of the century, "7th
Heaven"?!? It
just doesn't make sense. The WB's reasoning is absurd at worst,
and a
desperate struggle to stay alive at best.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Plus no Roswell reruns -- Elizabeth, 10:56:37 05/24/01
Thu
I already screwed up taping two episodes, and they didn't even
have reruns
in mid-season. I hope UPN may pick up Roswell reruns to promote
the show for
the fall???
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: WB Execs are not thinking right -- FanMan,
14:54:57 05/24/01
Thu
I am 28 and Buffy is my favorite show.
So the WB is losing teen viewers? The WB was the new kid on the
block, and
had a good market strategy. Teens are fickle, not stupid. Teens
have just as
much desire for quality as adults. The WB needs quality shows
that teens can
relate to if they want that demographic. Buffy is like the X-Files,
Star
Trek, and a few others; it will still be watched and rewatched
for decades
after the last episode airs because it is multifaceted and you
need to see
many episodes to really understand how complex Joss can be. It
is still a
show with a fringe viewing demographic; the only reason many people
watched
the WB is because of BUFFY. The WB could have switched focus to
adult shows
and it would be good to keep BUFFY at the same time because BUFFY
is now a
more adult and grey show like reality that adults deal with: kids
have a
simple view of reality until they grow up and see that there are
many greys
in choices.....well smart people figure out that painfull truth(grin)
BUFFY has many adult viewers and teens who grew up loving it are
now close
to collage age and haveing some real spending money so keeping
the show
would have kept those viewers loyal at a time they are a better
marketing
demographic(17-22) than teens whose income is an allowance or
very part time
work.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: WB Execs are not thinking right --
Cynthia, 16:55:35
05/24/01 Thu
If WB Execs are hoping that all of BTVS fans are going to turn
on at 8 p.m.
on Tuesday come fall, they idiots. Haven't they heard of the interet,
fanboards, chatrooms. 99.9% of BTVS are going to be watching Buffy,
not
turning WB to watch Buffy and in a supposed stupor (I guess they
think we've
to "old" to turn the channels) watch Gilmore Girls.
And, I guess, the execs have never heard of vcrs or tivo's either.
I've
faithly watched two shows that are on at the same time for years.
The days
of just one show, one time period are long gone. I wonder when
the TV execs
are going to realize that.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: The WB is only proving how fearful they should
be... -- rowan,
19:02:00 05/24/01 Thu
Okay, wait a minute. The Gilmore Girls is not a teeny-bopper show,
even if
that article gave the impression it is. It's actually a show that
appeals to
an older female demographic, because it's really more focused
on a 30
something single woman raising a daughter.
But I think you're right that WB is trying to suck people into
another show
by putting it in Buffy's timeslot. The Gilmore Girls would actually
be a
better fit after 7th Heaven, and if the WB wasn't so interested
in playing
games, they'd realize that.
I don't understand this messing with the reruns. With a non-mainstream
show
like BtVS, I can't imagine that the loyal core fanbase is going
to be lost
by this type of obvious shell game.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: The WB is only proving how fearful they
should be... --
Anthony8, 19:42:04 05/24/01 Thu
I really wonder about the so-called demographics cited by networks
in their
promotion and scheduling of shows. I think that the WB seriously
misread
BTVS' demographic. I believe it has a much broader age and gender
appeal
than they ever realized. Gilmore Girls too. It is obvious from
this message
board that, at least here, viewers are interested in quality storytelling
and non-pandering entertainment. I wouldn't be surprised if you
sat down a
group of intelligent viewers of any age or gender background (I
won't
include ethnicity because there is still a long, long way to go
regarding
that) and find that they would like BTVS, Gilmore Girls, The West
Wing, and
maybe even a sitcom like Seinfeld. Quality writing crosses demographics,
but
I think that is way too complicated for network executives to
comprehend and
quantify. After all those people are bean counters not creative
types.
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: The WB is only proving how fearful
they should be... --
rowan, 19:53:01 05/24/01 Thu
I agree. I think BtVS is totally mis-marketed. It is a show that
can really
appeal to an older audience. I have now forced my brother (30),
mother (69),
and best friend (34) to watch an ep. I have converted them all
to loyal
fans. They marketing had turned them off, until I could convince
them to
watch an ep. BtVS comes out of the same tradition (for me at least)
as JRR
Tolkien, CS Lewis, etc. Even Harry Potter appeals to both children
and
adults.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: The WB is only proving how fearful
they should be... --
Anthony8, 20:26:38 05/24/01 Thu
Similar demographic here--mother (58) and best friend (32). I've
been trying
to get my father interested since he has always been interested
in Joseph
Campbell-type studies of mythology, but he's not a big TV watcher
these
days. Someday I'll have to sit him down in front of a vcr and
give him a
"Best of" showing.
There has been enough attention in the media (Matt Rousch of TV
Guide and
Joyce Millman of salon.com, to name two) drawing attention to
the quality
viewing that BTVS is that you would think the network executives
would have
eventually caught a clue as to how to promote the show to a broad
audience.
Oh well.
By the way, Tim Goodman is a writer for the San Francisco Chronicle
who
mentions BTVS at least once a week in his various reviews and
editorials.
Most recently, he wrote an article for the Sunday Datebook section
that
lamented the lack of truly complex characters in dramatic TV today
and cited
Buffy as perhaps the only one left worth watching.
A8
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: The WB is only proving how fearful
they should be... --
Rufus, 21:10:16 05/24/01 Thu
If you tell a good story....it crosses generational lines...something
they
should be paying attention to.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Re: The WB is only proving how fearful
they should be... --
Anthony8, 21:24:51 05/24/01 Thu
By the way, that Tim Goodman article on the lack of complex tv
characters
can be found at this
address--http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/05/06/PK148408.DTL
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Thanks for the link...........
-- Rufus, 21:33:49 05/24/01
Thu
Thoughts on Dawn being the "softer
side of Buffy" -- Rob, 10:34:20 05/24/01
Thu
I was thinking about a few of the postings I read here, that perhaps
when
the Monks created Dawn, they isolated the more "girly"
side of Buffy, while
Buffy herself kept the Slayer side. That actually makes a great
deal of
sense, considering that when Dawn arrived is around the time that
Buffy
started to distance herself from Riley and take him for granted.
This
eventually lead to their breakup. Also, all year Buffy has repeatedly
wondered whether she has the ability to feel love anymore, which
mirrored
Dawn's wondering whether she was real or not. Perhaps Buffy's
feelings of
distance towards humanity at times and her taking Riley for granted
are thus
a result of Dawn's creation, as the non-slayer side of Buffy was
put into
another vessel. This could also explain why, in "Weight of
the World,"
Willow talked to 2 Buffys at the end. Although we know that Dawn
can
metaphorically be called "the softer side of Buffy,"
perhaps she is
literally as well. This year, Buffy explored the darker side of
being the
slayer. Perhaps, in her hero's journey, it was necessary for the
"girly"
part to be separated from her for a while, to more objectively
understand
her role as the Slayer, and the difference between herself and
a regular
killer. She was, however, required to protect the other side of
herself, not
let it get away (or be taken), as she focused more deeply on her
training.
At the end of "Becoming," Buffy sacrificed the human
side of herself, her
passionate love for Angel, and kept the Slayer side, in order
to save the
world. This lead to a period of great darkness for her, where
she felt
compelled to run away and change her identity. Thus forgoing her
humanity
and love is not the right choice, at least in a metaphysical sense.
At the end of "The Gift," Buffy sacrificed her "slayer"
side to save the
more human side of herself, and the world. This leads to her death,
and thus
this is not the most beneficial to her either. She has learned
from this,
however.
Perhaps this was the lesson she had to learn: that both sides
of herself are
equally important; that in some cases her being a human girl who
cannot kill
her own sister, even to save the world, is more important than
being the
Slayer, and should come first.
While ostensibly this season was about how dark the job of the
Slayer is, it
also reveals, in a brilliant twist, that sometimes the job of
being human is
more important.
At the moment, Buffy's hard and soft sides are separated, in fact
the hard
side is for all intents and purposes dead and gone.
Could Buffy's resurrection next year have something to do with
joining both
sides toget