September 2001 posts
What other tv shows do you watch? -- Kerri,
06:27:23 09/19/01 Wed
Just curious. Are there any other shows that you watch and enjoy(of course not as much as BtVS or
AtS)? With the new season coming up is there anything you're looking forward to?
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[> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- Shaglio, 07:54:22 09/19/01 Wed
But of course:
The Simpsons Boston Public NYPD Blue Law & Order Once & Again (shhh, don't tell anyone) Whose
Line Is It Anyway ER
I used to watch Ally McBeal(when Monday Night Football wasn't on), but now I will be watching
Angel. I don't know what I'll do when MNF starts :( I also used to watch Jack & Jill, but I hear it got
canned :(
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[> Not much regularly -- Cactus Watcher, 08:31:13 09/19/01 Wed
After decades of watching religiously every night, most TV bores me now. Even fairly good shows,
like ER used to be, don't hold my interest any more. West Wing may be great, but even the idea of it
sounds dull to me. It takes a show with a lot of imagination and careful thought, like Babylon 5 was
its first four seasons, to make me watch all the time. Buffy is great. Angel was getting a little tedious
for me when they were relying so heavily on Julie Benz to keep the plot going. The idea of Darla is
fine, but JB just isn't much of an actress. Hopefully, things will be better again on Angel this
year.
PS. I guess it can't all be JB's acting. I watched that clod who played the first commander of Babylon
5 regularly. Compared to him JB is Betty Davis.
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[> It's scary how much I watch, actually.... -- Deeva, 09:07:41 09/19/01 Wed
Felicity Charmed (really guilty pleasure) Sex and the City Oz Queer as Folk Six Feet Under Will &
Grace West Wing CSI Futurama The Simpsons The Pretender ER The Real World Road Rules
Alias (will be watching this when it airs. Saw the pilot at work & it rocks!)
After all that I still have a pretty normal life. I guess it helps that I don't need much sleep.
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[> [> Re: It's scary how much I watch, actually.... -- Sebastian, 10:08:50 09/19/01 Wed
I've been gone for a few months (I've been semi-lurking, however) - but I hope y'all remember
me.
The Practice Boston Public (gotta love David Kelley) Friends Queer as Folk
That's about it for me....
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[> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- dream of the consortium, 09:51:36 09/19/01
Wed
I don't. I grew up watching a lot of t.v., and now I have to treat it very carefully to avoid spending
hours in front of the television. I don't actually have an antenna, but I have a VCR and some
understanding friends who tape Buffy for me. I used to watch the Simpson's at a friend's house
pretty regularly, and when I had a television in a place I was renting, I watched Seinfeld sometimes
as well. I did feel like I was wasting a lot of time, though. Most of the shows I have watched and
enjoyed since college have been those I could rent - Twin Peaks, Buffy, the Prime Suspect and
American Visions series on PBS. The one show I wished I could have seen more of was Homicide - I
caught a few episodes at my parents' house and was very impressed.
The strange thing is that I know a number of people like me who say, "I don't watch television.
I watch Buffy."
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[> [> Manhattan Buffy/Angel fans, help... -- briseis, 11:09:04 09/19/01 Wed
Last November I caught a Buffy, "Family", here in Manhattan, when my tired 10 year-
old went to bed when she was supposed to watch the elections for a homework assignment. I hadn't
watched anything for years, and it took me a few months to work myself up to turning on the TV to
watch the end of the season. When you're not used to them, the commercials are really disturbing! I
remember they didn't bother me when I was a kid. Anyway, now I am totally TV-less. The old husk
gave its last gasp. Fortunately, it saw me through the Gift! I know my TVlessness could be remedied
fairly cheaply, but..anybody in lower Manhattan(East Village) want some Buffy/Angel watching
company?(I'm a thirty-nine year old woman, somewhat earthy-crunchy, somewhat MIT bio-nerd,
former journalist, chi gung teacher) Or know of any Buffy bars? Have excess taping capacity not
already spoken for? I'd be happy to make a financial contribution.
*Islam is not the enemy. War is not the answer. Act for peace now*
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[> [> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- Voxpopuli, 12:12:18 09/19/01 Wed
I have this friend, high school friend, who has a three y-o daughter. We've been friends for 17 years
already and I must admit that she has never been a tv addict like myself. Now that she's got her
daughter she started to "select" the shows her daughter can watch, and what is worse,
she does her best to keep the TV set on off, so that the "telly will not educate her
daughter". Ok, she is a psychologist, a psychosociologist like my husband, but I never saw such
narrow appreciation of the importance of media ( for that sake TV)! Of course we do have long
arguments about this, and of course she is surprised when her 3 y-o daughter arrives from the day
care centre singing songs from the top children shows and some "funk" (a kind of music
with very kinky lyrics) that is very popular on TV.
I do not understand how she fails so miserably to understand that the media, TV included, is part of
the education of everybody. It is not that you let the TV "educate" your child in the sense
of letting the child in front of the Tv all day long, but at least to let the child watch as much TV as
she wants, offering other alternatives, and also offering the possibility of criticism about what the
child saw. At least that's what my parents and grandparent always did to me, unaware that they
were actually having an impact on my ability to criticise the media information. So, I confess that I
watch TV a lot. I can't live without it, as much as I can't live without my books, my cds, my
computer. I love to watch the news as much as I love to watch That 70's show and Popular, as much
as I loved to watch "Ab Fab" (well, I still do not miss the reruns... ). Gosh! I love Animal
Planet, National Geographic, Discovery and Cartoon Network.. Am I a freak?! Some of my friends
say I am... Well, I must be. Some years ago, I used to sit with the kids to watch that Japanese
animated series, Knights of the Zodiac. When they released the movie, I just could not miss it, but I
had no friend or child to take with me, so... I went alone. I asked for a ticket, and the lady who sold
me the ticket rose from her chair to check if I had a child with me. She could not help a low laughter.
Ok, the funny part was the choir of children's voices singing the theme at the opening credits!
Horrible animation, but the story was cool! Do you guys remember Star Blazer? Wow, I loved it! That
is culture! Lots of concepts, cultural aspects, and much more, in those shows! But this friend of mine,
as well as many others, miss the whole point I am trying to make here! My husband is not that much
a couch potato, but at least I "infected" him with Buffy/Angel. Now, he is anxious to
know what will happen in the next season! And yes, he loves Popular ("that sarcastic
thing...")
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[> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- Andy, 12:57:46 09/19/01 Wed
Aside from Buffy, I watch
Samurai Jack. I really like good cartoons and this a very good one. Likewise, Invader ZIM is
hilarious.
I've started watching Farscape since SciFi channel has been rerunning it from the start. I don't
normally like shows like this but it's been a pleasant surprise.
If I'm around when it's on, I try to catch Iron Chef on Food Network.
That's actually about it, I think. I don't have many shows that I watch as "appointment
tv", although there's a lot of stuff that I do enjoy when I happen to stumble on it, such as
reruns of MST3K on weekend mornings, good documentaries, or old Simpsons reruns (can't stand
the last few seasons).
For the upcoming season, I might actually have more shows to watch than usual. I'm really looking
forward to The Tick, since I loved the cartoon series. Alias looks like it could be a lot of fun. And The
Ripping Friends might be cool, since it's by the Ren & Stimpy guys :)
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[> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- OnM, 13:29:51 09/19/01 Wed
I watch much less than I used to, mostly a time factor thing. Not surprisingly, watch a lot of movies,
typ. 1 or 2 a week at least. Used to have satellite subscription to all the pay movie channels, but
currently cut down to just HBO, time/cost factor again.
Since I watch most stuff sporadically, I'll break my viewing habits down by categories:
Never miss, always tape:
Buffy Angel
Rarely miss:
Law & Order ER Futurama 60 Minutes Sex & The City X-Files (last year mostly out of loyalty)
Usually watch if nothing else to do
Voyager (I know, poor Trek, but Jeri Ryan, whooo! That woman saved that show, and not just
because she looks good.) Law & Order SVU Farscape (this one is moving up to the above category
soon) The Simpsons The Outer Limits (the newer one, not the original)
Historical stuff:
Northern Exposure St. Elsewhere Hill Street Blues MST3K Star Trek DS9 (agree w/Masq, this was
the best Trek) Star Trek (The original, first year. 2nd & 3rd years dont hold up, IMO) The Days and
Nights of Molly Dodd The Avengers (yeah!!! Macnee & Rigg eps only) The Prisoner The Invaders The
Red Skelton Show
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[> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- Millan, 14:29:03 09/19/01 Wed
First of all; I have a slightly smaller selection to choose from than the average U.S. citizen as I live
on the other side of the world... Not to mention that many shows that we do get are way behind on
schedule. (Have I mentioned they've aired Buffy season one here - and that's it! Oh, yes, and then
there were reruns all over the place...) :(
Anyway, here's my list:
Friends Yay!! The new episodes started showing today!! We're in the middle of season seven. Every
episode is caught on tape.
X-files Very good show in the first three seasons, then we watched more sporadically.
Babylon 5 The best SF series ever! Have seen every episode at least once and have taped all from
season 3,4 and 5. Hope some day to get my hands on the first two.
Star Trek Any kind (FG, DS9, V, as long as it's not the original series).
Third Rock from the Sun It was fun in the beginning.
Charmed It's not like I remember to turn the telly on every week, but if there's nothing else to
do...
ER and The Simsons Once in a long while.
I think that's all. Turned out to be a longer list than I expected. Some of these aren't showing any
more though, so there's normally no more than two or three shows a week that we see
regularily.
Am I a collective? No, it's simply that me and my SO have the same taste. (Apart from Charmed, he
actually walks out the room those evenings...) :)
/Millan
"How about a movie? They're showing 'em in theaters now. I hear it's like watching a video
with a bunch of strangers and a sticky floor." -Xander, Into the Woods
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[> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- purplegrrl, 14:48:52 09/19/01 Wed
Being the TV-aholic that I am, the television tends to be on a great deal of the time at my
house.
Besides BtVS and A:tS, I watch a lot of science fiction, notably: Andromeda Babylon 5 The X-Files
The Invisible Man Relic Hunter Farscape (sometimes) Charmed (sometimes) Strange Frequencies
Night Visions Dead Last (sometimes) reruns of Quantum Leap, The Crow: Stairway to Heaven,
Highlander: The Raven, Brimstone, Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman
But I also watch whatever happens to catch my fancy: Port Charles (especially current vampire
storyline) Who's Line Is It Anyway? CSI (sometimes) Sex and the City The Chris Issac Show Once
and Again Jack and Jill reruns of Hart to Hart, Miami Vice, The Young Riders, Le Femme Nikita,
Beauty and the Beast
Looking forward to: Smallville Enterprise The Tick Wolf Lake Thieves Alias (sort of)
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[> [> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- gds, 20:46:07 09/19/01 Wed
I don't watch on TV because I have either bought the DVDs or recorded on tape: á Babylon 5 á
The X-Files (seasons 1-3) á Avengers
Dr. Who
Besides BtVS and AtS, I watch when its available: á Banecek á Sherlock Holmes (Jeremy
Brett)
The Saint á Andromeda (occasionally) á Earth: Final Conflict (occasionally) á The X-Files
(but I was about to stop until Mulder returned) á The Chronicle (occasionally, but it looks
promising) á Farscape (varies from poor to great, but since
they do new shows when others do reruns it is better then it otherwise would be) á Screensavers
(techie stuff) á Freshgear (techie stuff) á Silicon Spin (techie stuff)
Looking forward to: Enterprise
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[> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- Humanitas, 15:20:46 09/19/01 Wed
Well, let's see...
Law & Order, which is possibly the most syndicated show on TV right now. I discovered B5 on Sci-Fi,
and set out to watch the whole thing. Wow! And might I add my outrage that Cartoon Network is
moving Samurai Jack to Mondays at 9?! The way my cable's set up, I can't tape one thing while
watching another. Grr. Oh, and lately I'm watching Band of Brothers on HBO.
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[> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- Cleanthes, 15:26:41 09/19/01 Wed
Gee, I hope you can do a statistical analysis of all the shows watched... (well, that's naughty of me to
suggest, I suppose)
I used to watch Xena, but that's now over.
I still watch and tape Buffy and Angel. I watched Roswell and usually taped it last year and plan to
again.
Um... I watched Witchblade throughout the summer and I suppose I'll watch it again next
summer.
I've been watching the news WAY too much.
Once in awhile, I look at Farscape.
And, um, I used to watch ER many years ago but quit when Sherry Stringfield left the show, so I'll
maybe look at that again to see about her return, but I understand there's been tons of changes to
the characters and I've changed from the person who used to watch. Besides, it's on one of the
"main" networks and I just can't imagine I'll like it.
I understand Lucy Lawless will be on the X-files this year so I'll have to check that out. I rather
enjoyed Jason Patrick last year, although I didn't catch every episode.
Really, if I don't tape the show and watch it two or three times, it doesn't seem like watching at all,
just time-wasting. Buffy has spoiled TV for me!
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[> [> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- Nina, 16:34:38 09/19/01 Wed
I used to watch a lot of English tv to learn the language and the subtleties. I used to watch anything
as long as it had closed-captioned. Now it's quite different:
Counting the days for it:
- there's only Buffy
Taping while at choir practice
- Angel (they still need to hook me to that one. I watch because he used to be on Buffy and I feel I
have to watch it. I'm waiting to be touched by those characters. Maybe this year?)
I tape but won't go mad if I miss it:
- Northern Exposure
anything else I'll watch if I have really nothing else to do. So I guess I'll probably catch a few
episodes from:
- Frasier - Friends (not sure! I can't stand them anymore) - The X-Files - I'll try "Wolf
Lake" tonight
I guess that's about it. I agree that now tv for me is Buffy. Without Buffy I wouldn't even bother to
open the tv!
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[> [> We will have to make a promise to limit our news exposure......:):):) -- Rufus, 21:10:50
09/19/01 Wed
I've been watching more than usual and it's time to slow down.
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[> Nothing. AtS & BtVS is the only time I turn on the TV. -- Solitude1056, 16:31:33 09/19/01 Wed
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[> [> Same here except for South Park... -- Drizzt, 17:09:37 09/19/01 Wed
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[> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- d'Herblay, 16:33:47 09/19/01 Wed
Other than Buffy and Angel, I haven't watched many shows with enthusiasm since Homicide was
cancelled. There are too many shows that I'll watch an episode of and say, "Why is this dog still
on the air while Homicide's gone and forgotten?" I really like The Job, it's like Homicide
without the actual detective work. I watch South Park regularly; I still watch Friends and ER, but
more out of some sort of misguided sense of duty than any ecstatic experience.
What am I looking forward to? The Tick, of course. And 24 looks interesting.
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[> Didn't we already have this conversation? -- vampire hunter D, 17:44:02 09/19/01 Wed
I seem to recall a thread like this before. Oh well. I for one don't care much for most other shows on
TV. Besides Buffy and Angel, the only other shows I go out of my way to avoid missing are Farscape,
Lexx, Andromeda and DragonBall Z. I will watch Dark Angel if I can, and I also enjoy Howard Stern
and NBC's late nite line up.
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[> Does no one else but me enjoy La Femme Nikita? -- Shiver, 17:46:44 09/19/01 Wed
LFN, BtVS and ATS are all I go out of my way for ... but I do love West Wing when I can catch
it.
I was a big fan of Dr Who on PBS when I was a kid :)
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[> [> Dr. Who!!!!!!!!! How could I forget......... -- Rufus, 21:07:08 09/19/01 Wed
I watched years of Dr. Who all the way through to the last Dr. If we talk comedy and Brit sci fi I
guess I would have to go with Blackadder, Red Dwarf, and Dr. Who.
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[> [> Re: Does no one else but me enjoy La Femme Nikita? -- Cleanthes, 19:30:33 09/20/01
Thu
I watched LFN fairly often. I watched the final part-season religiously, taping every one.
It's a show that I'd probably like even more if I had whole seasons on tape or DVD, so I wouldn't
have to remember the odd time USA Network chooses to show it.
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[> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- Dariel, 19:07:11 09/19/01 Wed
Not many regular shows, except:
Once and Again (so like life that it's hard to remember that it's television)
The Sopranos (Got totally hooked this past year)
ER (getting bored, though--too much melodrama and not as much about the patients anymore)
Friends (not as good as it once was)
Frasier (as wonderful as ever!)
Law and Order (gonna miss Angie Harmon though
Felicity
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[> [> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- Shaglio, 06:01:29 09/20/01 Thu
"ER (getting bored, though--too much melodrama and not as much about the patients
anymore)"
I couldn't agree more. I was getting sick of Sally Field's character and that crusty old Bishop guy
that Luka was treating. Luckily I was usually playing on my computer while I was watching, so I
could tune out the scenes with those characters. Civilization 2, Baldur's Gate 2, Icewind Dale . . .
saved me from putting my foot through my TV many nights because of my hatred for the
aforementioned characters.
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[> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- Rufus, 19:29:54 09/19/01 Wed
Oh boy, now I have to remember what I watch. I have to say the number one slot goes to Buffy then
Angel. I watch entirely too much news programs. I get Space Channel here so I get to see the old
Buffy eps and saw Babylon 5 for the first time. I also have a movie channel so watch lots of movies.
The rest of the time I spend on the net or reading.
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[> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- cknight, 19:47:00 09/19/01 Wed
My favs
Old: Homicide (the best cop show ever) Northern Exposure Jerry, George, Elaine & Kramer (you
know the show) X-Files (seasons 1-6) American Gothic Highlander & The Raven
DS9 B5 Original Trek Outer Limits (old & New) Twilight Zone Sliders
Current: Farscape ER MAD TV Girlfriends (UPN) Witchblade
New shows I'm looking forward to are Wolf Lake (watching it right now), Alias.
:)
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[> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- Zus, 21:28:54 09/19/01 Wed
I'm kind of net-addicted and have to drag myself away from the computer to watch TV. Besides Buffy
and Angel, the only show I try to always catch is Farscape. Even if you don't like scifi, this one is a
winner. I recommend it to you all. Truthfully, those are the only 3 shows I watch with any
regularity, but I used to love Northern Exposure and Chicago Hope. If they turn up on an obscure
channel I watch them. Also, gotta go for the classic movies on AMC.
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[> [> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- Brian, 04:01:33 09/20/01 Thu
Samuri Jack - neat animation Iron Chef - love the format Sex in the City - lovely ladies Witchblade -
just a cool show CSI - science made interesting X-Files - I approach the new season with caution
Nash Bridges - always & forever - I'm a big DJ fan - I also have nearly every movie he ever made,
plus all the Miami Vice episodes on tape Croc Hunter - for the rush and the humor Law & Order -
we'll see
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[> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- mundusmundi, 05:55:05 09/20/01 Thu
My TV-show watching is declining considerably. Friends just doesn't hold my interest anymore.
Frasier is a classic sitcom, but the last batch of episodes last season were dismayingly bad. Gilmore
Girls is ok if I think overrated; it always seems to be on when nothing else decent is, though, and it
usually goes down easy. Finally caught the first season of The Sopranos and enjoyed it a lot. Nearly
every ep starts with mafia cliches and ends in strange, unexpected places. Mostly, I watch baseball.
Gives me something to talk about with my old man.
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[> [> Re: BTW, loved the Crouching Tiger article! -- Dedalus, 08:08:49 09/20/01 Thu
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[> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- Rattletrap, 07:20:33 09/20/01 Thu
Not much here
Regular: -------- Buffy and Angel are the only ones in prime time Simpsons reruns
Occasional:
----------- X-files reruns (been watching those a lot lately hoping to see some of the new Buffy promos).
Friends reruns (after years of really trying to not like the show, I have to admit it is pretty funny)
Also a big fan of the old Britcoms that come on PBS late at night.
Oh, and, of course, college football.
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[> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- Dedalus, 08:16:16 09/20/01 Thu
I always love these questions.
Well, the top of the list stuff, the stuff I always tape and never miss -
Buffy Angel
The other stuff I rarely ever miss and might tape for some strange reason -
Roswell Dark Angel (really picked up at the end of season) Gilmore Girls (love Lorelai's sense of
humor) Dawson's Creek (shut up! you know there are those of you out there that watch this show,
whether you admit it or not)
Stuff that is on that I will watch -
The Simpsons Seinfeld X-Files (sometimes - basically I've lost interest) MADtv Crocodile Hunter (I
want to see him go to Jurassic Park - "Crikey, she's a beaut!") Politically Incorrect
Married with Children
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[> [> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- Naomi, 11:11:41 09/20/01 Thu
My favourite is Buffy followed by Angel ,Farscape, Le Femme Nikita, Roswell, American Gothic and
The sopranoes. I no longer bother with The x-Files, Friends, Dawsons Creek and Er.
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[> [> [> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- John Burwood, 14:08:55 09/20/01
Thu
I am with those posters who have said they watch no other shows regularly, & Buffy has spoiled TV
drama for them. I watched very episode of Dr.Who and almost every Babylon Five and lots of others,
and bought tapes of those two - only to get rid of them when Buffy came along to make all the others
seem second-rate by comparison. But I do have cableand watch the History channel, Discovery
(Civilisation and Sci-Trek) quite a lot.
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[> [> How could I forget that one! -- Millan, 23:50:31 09/20/01 Thu
"Married with children"!
Of course!
It was an absolute favourite of mine many, many years ago.
/Millan
"Sure selling shoes is fun. But behind the glamour, it's like any other minimum wage slow
death." - Al Bundy
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[> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- Slayrunt, 18:05:57 09/20/01 Thu
I haven't read anyone else's post, but I watch a lot. Here are the good ones
The Practice Stargate Who's Line is it Anyway That 70's show
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[> Re: What other tv shows do you watch? -- Rahael, 11:51:45 09/23/01 Sun
Apart from the obvious, I watch Have I Got News for You (satirical) which is the longest running
thing I have stayed faithful to (10 years!)
umm Frasier, if I happen to be in, SG1 (only semi decent tv prog on Sundays), any BBC costume
drama, documentaries, news and politics type programmes, The Adam and Joe Show (for pop culture
addicts). BBC Arts programming not bad. Dalziel and Pascoe (though the books are much better,
excellent light reading)
Past faves which sometimes get repeated: Blackadder
Fawlty Towers Inspector Morse
I will also admit to watching trashy voyeuristic television and then feel guilty afterwards.
Sometimes catch Dawson's Creek so I can shout at it, and watch Dawsons amazing expanding
forehead at work.
resurrection cult? -- number6, 12:12:20
09/19/01 Wed
I've heard many spoilers for the new season of Buffy but am going to ignore them completely and ask
what everyone thinks about the fact that a resurrection cult existed around Glory. Doc, the man to
see concerning resurrection was one of her most powerful (seen) worshipers, when Jinx died he was
easily brought back- not by her using her God-like powers but by a fellow minion. Could this have
something to do with Buffy's rebirth? Or maybe it's just a spirit of the slayer thing! Who
knows!
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[> The cult of the undying? -- Voxpopuli, 12:31:57 09/19/01 Wed
I've always felt that there was something not really human about Slayerhood, and that Drac is
somehow pretty much right: slayers and vampires are akin. Both are possessed by some power. We
must remember that the slayer is not born that way, that she does not have her powers until another
slayer dies. Some, like Buffy, are aware of the task that they were chosen to acomplish only in the
middle of adolescence. I wonder if the ones who had a chance to become a slayer and who were not
"blessed" with it, would eventually become watchers... If slayers are akin to vampires,
they are not supposed to die that easily, specially by mystical means. Beheading would definitely kill
Buffy, as well as a stake on the right spot without anybody to take her to a hospital would mean the
end of her, but the power that is in her is definitely mystical, it is something that was given to her, or
else, that possesses her (she did not chose to be a slayer), so I doubt she could be killed that easily on
mystical grounds. The body may die by physical means, but if spirit is immortal and energy undying,
then if she is knocked out by mystical means, she is not necessarily dead. She never died, not in the
way we understand death, so she can be awaken , but not exactly "ressurected". What do
you think?
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[> [> Mysterious Doc... -- Drizzt, 13:22:11 09/19/01 Wed
I would say The Doc claiming to be a servant of Glory was a ruse. He used superspeed when he
fought Spike, & then when Buffy came up he did not... His superspeed was slower than Glory's, but
the Doc survived a sword in the heart, has lots of magic knowladge, & scariest seems to be very
sneaky and clever. I think the Doc has an entirely different agenda than Glory, and if he had really
wanted to fight Buffy things would have happened different. Remember the info on the bloodritual
with Dawn came from the Doc, probably he did not have the whole truth in that red box. The Doc
seemed to WANT Spike & Xander to get the box, but he had to fight them so they would not be
suspicious of the contents...
What if that location in spacetime is permanent, and the ritual could be performed with Dawn at any
time instead of once per century or millinium? Doc is scarier to me than any of the other Big Bads
except the Mayor...
I posted in another thread that I thought the supernatural bloodlink between Buffy & Dawn would
have something to do with bringing her back. The only other scenerio that would make much
sense(that I can think of right now) is the Doc bringing her back so he could have a
zombieslaveSlayer or something like that. But I know Joss will suprise us somehow and maby have a
different mechanism.
Doc is a mystery!
1st Anniversary Character Posting
Party: The Host/Lorne -- verdantheart, 14:46:48 09/19/01 Wed
First, a couple of notes. Unfortunately, due to unforseen tragic circumstances that delayed my return
home, I wasn't able to put in the time that I wanted to polish this up a bit. I also wanted to compare
the scripts with the episode transcripts, but wasn't able to get that done. So all the quotes are from
the shooting scripts. I'm posting this Wednesday because I may not be able to look in tomorrow. So
don't be surprised if I don't
respond to comments until Friday. Thanks!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lorne
Wesley: The Host, the fellow Angel is talking to? He helps demons, reads their souls, senses their
futures...
Cordelia: But he can only do it when they sing Karaoke.
Gunn: 'kay, now you're just having fun with the new guy. [note: this line appears in the shooting
script but not the transcript.] (Guise Will Be Guise)
Krevlornswath of the Deathwok clan, Lorne for short, a.k.a. the Host of Caritas is a bright green
demon with bright red lips, eyes, and hair who hails from the dimension of Pylea. Caritas
("mercy" in Latin) is the Karaoke bar that Lorne created on the spot that he entered the
Buffy dimension. Caritas is a sanctuary, where weapons, violence, and eating the clientele is
prohibited. Here he hosts a karaoke show, sings, and dispenses advice based on his psychic
abilities.
Much of the role Lorne has played in AtS has to do with his talent. As Wesley says, "He's
anagogic.... *Psychic*, connected to the mystic. When you sing you bare your soul and he can see into
it" (Judgment). The keys to Lorne are his psychic gifts and his love of music. Lorne's
interactions with Angel illustrate how Lorne's talents shape his character.
When Lorne first sees Angel, he offers unsolicited help:
Host: Love the coat. It's all about the coat. Welcome to Caritas. You know what that means?
Angel: It's Latin for mercy.
Host: Smart *and* cute. How 'bout gracing us with a number?
Angel: I don't sing.
(In distant background, Mordar the Bentback growls a tone deaf version of "Sexual
Healing" ...)
Host: And neither does Mordar the Bentback -- That cat's a foghorn on two legs; this isn't about your
pipes, 'bro, it's about your spirit.
Angel: I don't sing.
[Cordy/Wesley dialog omitted]
Host: I know you're feelin' smooth, in the groove. Isn't that the thing that comes before a fall?
(Judgment)
This indicates that Lorne is not completely dependent on having someone sing to sense things about
them. He could see here that Angel was headed for trouble, as indeed he was (accidentally killing a
demon that was serving the force of good). (Later, in "Epiphany," Lorne sees what's
happened immediately: "Keep yer pants on! ... Ahhh. Well. I see we're a little late with *that*
advice.")
Angel returns to sing Mandy and accept Lorne's advice. Lorne's assessment? "Well, you're just
the hot ticket. One night only, partially obstructed view --" That is, Angel's destiny at this
junction is unclear.
When Angel next appears in Caritas (not counting the dream sequence in "First
Impressions") looking for Darla, he sings "Ramblin' Man." But Lorne refuses to
give Angel the information he wants, saying "I tell beings what their path is -- I try to give 'em
a roadmap -- this little highway you want to take is headed straight for Disaster, Maine."
So Lorne can withhold information that he thinks will only harm the individual that he is advising.
But, further, he doesn't see everything. For example, in "Guise Will Be Guise," he does
not foresee that sending Angel to his friend the T'ish Magev will get the T'ish killed.
"Happy Anniversary" occurs smack-dab in the middle of Angel's dark patch, and is the
first time Lorne sees Angel after he fires his crew. As they rush to save the world from ending, Lorne
can't help but offer his services:
Host: ... To tell the truth, if the world were to end tonight, would it really, in your heart of hearts, be
such a terrible thing? (Nothing from Angel) Now sweetie, is that a fun place to be?
Angel: (This is hitting too close to home) I think you should shut up now.
Host: Excuse me, I'm the Host, have you met me? I never shut up. You pushed your friends away,
you went from helping the helpless to hunting down the guilty -- blood vengeance is a luxury of the
lesser being. You're a champion, Angel, I mean you were at any rate.
Angel: (beat) What do you want me to tell you?
Host: *Everything*, what's in your heart, why you stopped caring, you know, whole ball of wax, so I
can help you get back on your path... no need to rush we've got time... (checks watch) ...you know, not
a lot.
[Angel goes on to bemoan the fact that he can never win and that he couldn't save Darla.]
Host: Not always gonna be like this. The song changes. Unless of course we don't get there in time, in
which case you'll be stuck in this crappy mood forever. Shudder to think.
Lorne, like Spike, sees a lot and is not afraid to speak his mind. But unlike Spike, he wants to help
people find their path through life. Wesley and Cordy were a bit afraid to speak frankly with Angel --
and why not? He is a vampire, after all. But Lorne isn't afraid of that, perhaps because he can read
Angel well enough to know how he's going to respond. He doesn't mind being a little testy with
Angel. When Angel insists that getting to the senior partners is his destiny, but Lorne says, "Is
it? Because I haven't actually featured a destiny with you in it lately. It's all a little murky."
(Reprise) Angel is rebelling against the plans of the Powers and trying to make his own destiny.
Lorne is trying to help him find the destiny that the Powers have planned. As circumstances change,
and people follow or rebel against their fates, the paths laid out for them by the Powers change as
well.
So, for all that Lorne tries to help Angel with his problems, Angel wound up having to work through
them himself (maybe because he's not exactly good at taking advice ..).
Lorne reluctantly assists Angel in "Reprise." He can see what's coming up, but he sees it
by reading other people, and feels that passing along this information isn't ethical ("But I
really can't divulge to you what I read in another being. (then) Though I can pass along what I
overheard in the men's room."). Perhaps he senses that Angel needs to follow it through.
Angel seeks Lorne out immediately after his interlude with Darla (Epiphany).
Angel: I don't know how to get back.
Host: Well, that's the thing -- you don't. You go to the new place. Wherever that is.
(Angel looks at the Host. Weighs this, then he looks away again, can't meet the Host's eyes as he
begins, slowly, tentatively...)
Angel: I don't know if I can. I've done... things... questionable things.
Host: Yes, you have. But you didn't kill those lawyers, Angel.
(Angel looks at him. The Host looks back.)
Host: That was slated to happen with or without you. The Powers were just trying to work it so it'd
be *without* you, that's all. You just... well. You weren't much help in that department, were ya,
sparky?
(A beat as Angel take that in, anger bubbling up now...)
Angel: I wasn't much help? If they wanted me to stay away, why didn't they just *tell* me?
Host: Would you have listened? Besides, what makes you think they didn't? Over and over and, as
for example, over?
Angel: They could have been more specific.
Host: (clears throat) Er... isn't this just the sort of 'tude that got you where you are now? (Angel puts
the lid on a potential rant. Fumes a bit.) I think I speak for everyone when I say -- if all you're going
to do is switch back to brood mode, we'd rather have you evil. Because then, at least -- leather
pants.
Then Lorne points out "I'm not your link with The Powers, Angel. I never was. You got rid of
that when you fired your crew."
But when a portal opened up to Pylea and a Drokken jumped out (Belonging), things got personal for
Lorne. We're used to see him looking confident in his superior knowledge (perhaps even smug?). But
when it comes to Pylea, all that fades away. He's even reluctant to discuss it, to admit that he's even
from that place. When Angel asks him about the Drokken:
Angel: That's all you've got for us?
Wesley: What is it doing here? What does it want? What is it capable of?
Host: Who cares? It trashed my club, my clientele. (Belonging)
Later, when Landok appears through another portal in the library, Lorne says "Just because I
know his name doesn't mean you can't knock him unconscious. Please, continue."
He doesn't want to go back. It emerges that Lorne is embarrassed by a past of shame. In his world,
he's considered a coward and traitor. As Landok said, "Your vanishing was a great mystery to
our Clan.... It was hoped that you had sought atonement by forfeiting your life in the Sacrificial
Canyons of Trelinsk." His best friend denounces him (Over the Rainbow). His own mother
says, "You have shamed our clan and betrayed your kind... Each morning before I feed, I go out
into the hills where the ground is thorny and parched, beat my breast and curse the loins that gave
birth to such a cretinous boy-child" (Through the Looking Glass).
Further, Pylea has no music. As Lorne says, "*They have no music there.* It doesn't exist -- do
you know what that's like? No lullabies, no love songs -- because there aren't any. All my life I
thought I was crazy, that I had ghosts in my head or something, simply because I could hear music.
Of course, I didn't know it was music -- all I knew was that it was beautiful, and painful, and right.
And I was the only one who could hear it." (Over the Rainbow)
OK, he doesn't like Pylea. But why so afraid? It's because he's *out of his depth here*! Lorne can't sit
back and watch himself sing. He can't read his own destiny in the minute detail that he can see the
destinies of other people. He can't see whether or not he'll be able to return. Still worse, he fears that
his destiny might be to return there to stay -- that he belongs there.
In "Through the Looking Glass" Lorne tells Angel, "They see you in a certain way
... you start to see yourself that way. You become that image. I get it. I do. Because I know how they
see *me*." When Lorne popped through the portal into the Buffyverse, he
could put his past completely behind and create himself in the image he desired. At last he felt in
some control. This may be where much of his confidence comes from.
Lorne goes to a friend to get some help finding a portal for Angel's rescue mission:
Aggie: I'm getting all kindsa ugly conflict vibes comin' offa you, Lorne. And they're all pointin' at that
portal.
Host: Are you sure you're not just seeing the chili I had for lunch yesterday? 'Cause whew, you
wanna talk about conflict -- (off her look, stops) They need the hot spot because they're going to
Pylea, my home dimension.
Aggie: And you're not going with them.
Host: Aggie, I'd rather have a hydrochloric acid facial. I'd rather invite a hive of wasps to nest in my
throat. I would rather sit through a junior high school production of "Cats" -- do you see
where I'm going with this?
Aggie: Not to Pylea.
Host: Exactamundo.
Aggie: That's too bad then. Now they'll never rescue the girl.
Host: (beat) Come again?
Aggie: I can find your hot spot, Lorne, but on one condition: you've gotta go with 'em. It's the only
way you're gonna resolve these issues that are cloudin' up your aura, I can see it. Be honest, deep
down, you've always known you'd have to take that one last trip back home.
Host: It's the "last" that scares me. (Over the Rainbow)
Fortunately Lorne finds that he simply had to make the trip to confirm that he didn't have to make
the trip:
Host: My psychic friend told me I had to come back here -- I didn't believe her. Then I realized I
*did* have to come back here because I really always thought I had to come back here deep down
inside. You know? (Angel nods) I had to come back here to find out I didn't have to come back here, I
don't belong here. You know where I belong? LA. You know why? *Nobody* belongs there, it's the
perfect place for guys like us.
Angel: That's kinda beautiful.
Host: Ain't it?
Seems more obvious than profound, don't it? But it expresses a common experience (but more about
that later). We leave him realizing that he is probably the character in Angel that is happiest with
his circumstances, despite the fact that he is perhaps the one who least "belongs" there.
As he says, "You know where I belong? L.A. You know why? *Nobody* belongs there, it's the
perfect place for guys like us." (There's No Place Like Plrtz Glrb) While the other characters
were looking for belonging, Lorne had accepted his outsiderness and was happy where he was. (I'd go
further into this, but this is a tangent, perhaps entitled "Why I disagree with a lot of people
and actually got something out of the Pylea
adventure" ...)
So what can we say about Lorne? Is he a force for good or evil? Lorne himself would not want to look
at it in such simplistic terms, black and white with no gray.
He sees his calling rather as a servant of the Powers, helping everyone find their path, both human
and demon, good and evil, Angel and Lindsey. He gets out of the way of the Powers That Be, telling
Cordelia "... when the Big Guys talk, I shut my yap" (Redefinition). He won't advise an
evil being to turn good, helping even Harmony find herself (Disharmony).
But we can note that he is not in favor of seeing his beloved Buffyverse end, seeking Angel's help to
prevent this event in "Happy Anniversary." And though reluctant, he does want to help
the crew find Cordelia when she's lost in Pylea. This would tend to put Lorne on the side of good,
where his own actions are concerned.
Finally, let's take a look at the dramatic purpose of Lorne. When I embarked upon this project, I soon
realized that Lorne has appeared in 15 of the 22 episodes in season 2. He plays a large role in five
episodes, "Happy Anniversary" and the big Pylea quartet that concluded the
season.
He opened the season with a rendition of "I Will Survive" in "Judgment."
Does this episode foreshadow the season?
Lorne often serves to further the plot, as characters act on his advice. During Angel's dark phase, as
I mentioned, Lorne's the person that Angel can talk to, revealing his anguished path.
Sometimes he seems to serve as a way for the writers to speak their minds, especially since he has a
show-biz consciousness. For example:
Host: ...But I think the general angst is less about the review and more about the review*er*. And
let's just say it ain't Rex Reed.
Angel: What is it?
Host: Something evil and dark and merciless. (then) Actually, now that I say it out loud, sounds an
awful lot like Rex, doesn't it?
I hypothesize that the experience of an unsatisfactory return home (as though to Pylea) is a
relatively common Hollywood experience. Creative people often feel like aliens growing up. I expect
that after they are successful, they may return home (for a high school reunion or whatever) only to
find the experience an empty one. Although they may be renowned in their home town, they may
still feel as freakish as ever they felt growing up. Further, many in Hollywood "invent"
themselves, creating personas that no one they grew up with would recognize.
Lorne also adds music and color to the mix. With his bright colors, snappy dialog and forthright
manner provide a nice counterpoint to and relief from Angel's brooding persona. He provides some
syncopation, if you will, to the rhythm of the series.
But the last four episodes fill us in on Lorne's back story. Up to that point, Lorne appears as a
mentor and commentator, someone mostly outside of the main action (with the exception of
"Happy Anniversary"). These episodes reveal more of what makes him tick.
This begs the question, Why? This hints that the writers are fond of Lorne and aren't satisfied with
him remaining the eyes you see over the back fence. It points to the possibility that the Powers
intend to expand Lorne's role in the future. Whether or not the viewer is satisfied by this prospect
depends on whether he/she likes the idea of a mentor who is something of a cipher himself. Which
brings me to the next point.
Does the character work?
I've seen several negative comments regarding the 2nd season wrap-up. Some seem to have been
disappointed to know more about Lorne. However, if his role is indeed to be expanded, this is almost
a necessary development. If you don't like Lorne, this may not be a positive thing. Obviously, since I
took on the challenge of writing this article, I take the opposite point of view.
So, kind posters, please take the time to post your opinion. Do you like Lorne? Hate him? Never want
to hear another Karaoke tune again? Do you think he was fine until you found out too much about
him?
OK, that's it. Yep, it's a lot for a character who hasn't been around long. Please let me know what
you think.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: 1st Anniversary Character Posting Party: The Host/Lorne -- Drizzt,
15:49:01 09/19/01 Wed
Lorne is a neat character. WOW I would not have thought of Lorne as a mouthpeice of sorts for the
writers of the show to express oppinions on hollywood, critics, & writers anst! Cool new perspective
on Lorn for me.
I would like to see him as a more central character; need a cypher, someone with grey motives &
morals to balance out the gooditooshoo heroic posturing;) Spike is the grey character on BTVS
currently, Giles/Ripper is ruthless...but his motives are allways good so he is not a grey character.
Back to Lorne; the other benefit of the character is he remains cheerfull and irreverent in the face of
allmost anything, plus the comic relief of his personality:) We veiwers need some cheerfullness to
counteract the grimness of whatever moral/situational disaster Joss has planned for Angel &
Crew...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: 1st Anniversary Character Posting Party: The Host/Lorne -- Nina, 16:52:00 09/19/01
Wed
Nice work!!! :) You know what? Lorne is actually the only character that gives me a real reason to
watch "Angel". I like Wesley alright, Cordy is okay to have around, Gunn needs to get a
life because I still don't know who he is (hope they do something with him), Angel really doesn't
make it for me (I should care about his struggle and I don't). The Host now that's different. I liked
him right away. He's funny and bright and says frankly what he thinks. I liked the secret
surrounding him. He was mysterious. But if you want to go deeper with character you have to give
him a background. You can't keep him in the shadow for always.
So I am really looking forward season 3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: 1st Anniversary Character Posting Party: The Host/Lorne -- Drizzt, 17:07:31
09/19/01 Wed
We have some background on Lorne now, I hope he will be more involved in season three instead of
being mister advice guy...
Fred is still an unknown variable, but any female character would help because Cordy was aaaallllll
alone in Angel town:-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> THERE you are! Hurray!!! -- Wisewoman, 16:23:33 09/19/01 Wed
I'm so glad to hear from you. I, for one, was worried sick. I haven't even read the character post yet,
I'm just so glad you're okay.
:o)))
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: THERE you are! Hurray!!! -- verdantheart, 06:33:38 09/21/01 Fri
Thanks for your kind concern! All we suffered was extra expenses and a lengthy delay; not much at
all in the greater scheme of things.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Great job, verdantheart. ;o) -- Wisewoman, 16:48:53 09/19/01 Wed
I've always absolutely loved The Host--I think he was just what AtS needed, someone quirky and off-
beat to liven things up and provide a comedic edge. And Andy Hallett, of course, is superb in the
role.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: 1st Anniversary Character Posting Party: The Host/Lorne -- Rufus, 21:25:15 09/19/01
Wed
I did one of these tests to see which Angel character I was like. To my astonishment I was the only
one I saw who scored highest for Lorne. I assure you that I'm not green, or very tall, I sing, but the
reaction to my singing would resemble all those poor folk on Pylea. So don't tempt me, your
eardrums just couldn't take it. I like Lorne. He is someone who has come to LA to disappear, blend in
with the population. In the crowd he can do what he wants and follow his heart. Can you imagine all
those years hearing something..not understanding what it was til he came here to find that it was
music. Lorne hears music, where his family and people on Pylea hear nothing. They are so
traditional that anything that isn't "normal" to them is a threat to be destroyed.
I like Lorne, he tells Angel to get over himself, while being able to appreciate the perks of leather
pants on a brooding vampire. He shows no fear for Angel and is happy to push his buttons. Angel
needs someone who is going to take him a bit less seriously. The gang was afraid to tell him what
they were thinking and Lorne just lets him have it. I hope he sticks right were he is.
Thank you for your essay.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> I've always liked Lorne.He's a great character and a character. Great work! -- Deeva, 23:35:59
09/19/01 Wed
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[> Re: 1st Anniversary Character Posting Party: The Host/Lorne -- Rattletrap, 07:34:48 09/20/01
Thu
Great job Verdantheart!
The Host may be the main reason I started watching Angel, I didn't see it over once or twice during
the first season. But 2nd season, he livened up the mix . . . you're quite right, added a syncopation to
the rhythm.
Am I the only one that really wanted to see Angel and Lorne going to that Elton John concert
together? That could be pretty darn funny.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Great essay on a great character! Thanks! -- Kerri, 16:34:13 09/20/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Same thing, improved format -- verdantheart, 06:31:16 09/21/01 Fri
I didn't have time to remove all those extra returns on Wed -- it was either post as is or wait 'til
today. And since I'm in a deadline driven industry, I cringed and sent it out. This should be a little
better.
First, a couple of notes. Unfortunately, due to unforseen tragic circumstances that delayed my return
home, I wasn't able to put in the time that I wanted to polish this up a bit. I also wanted to compare
the scripts with the episode transcripts, but wasn't able to get that done. So all the quotes are from
the shooting scripts. I'm posting this Wednesday because I may not be able to look in tomorrow. So
don't be surprised if I don't respond to comments until Friday. Thanks!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lorne
Wesley: The Host, the fellow Angel is talking to? He helps demons, reads their souls, senses their
futures... Cordelia: But he can only do it when they sing Karaoke.
Gunn: 'kay, now you're just having fun with the new guy. [note: this line appears in the shooting
script but not the transcript.]
(Guise Will Be Guise)
Krevlornswath of the Deathwok clan, Lorne for short, a.k.a. the Host of Caritas is a bright green
demon with bright red lips, eyes, and hair who hails from the dimension of Pylea. Caritas
("mercy" in Latin) is the Karaoke bar that Lorne created on the spot that he entered the
Buffy dimension. Caritas is a sanctuary, where weapons, violence, and eating the clientele is
prohibited. Here he hosts a karaoke show, sings, and dispenses advice based on his psychic
abilities.
Much of the role Lorne has played in AtS has to do with his talent. As Wesley says, "He's
anagogic.... *Psychic*, connected to the mystic. When you sing you bare your soul and he can see into
it" (Judgment). The keys to Lorne are his psychic gifts and his love of music. Lorne's
interactions with Angel illustrate how Lorne's talents shape his character.
When Lorne first sees Angel, he offers unsolicited help:
Host: Love the coat. It's all about the coat. Welcome to Caritas. You know what that means?
Angel: It's Latin for mercy.
Host: Smart *and* cute. How 'bout gracing us with a number?
Angel: I don't sing.
(In distant background, Mordar the Bentback growls a tone deaf version of "Sexual
Healing" ...)
Host: And neither does Mordar the Bentback -- That cat's a foghorn on two legs; this isn't about your
pipes, 'bro, it's about your spirit.
Angel: I don't sing.
[Cordy/Wesley dialog omitted]
Host: I know you're feelin' smooth, in the groove. Isn't that the thing that comes before a fall?
(Judgment)
This indicates that Lorne is not completely dependent on having someone sing to sense things about
them. He could see here that Angel was headed for trouble, as indeed he was (accidentally killing a
demon that was serving the force of good). (Later, in "Epiphany," Lorne sees what's
happened immediately: "Keep yer pants on! ... Ahhh. Well. I see we're a little late with *that*
advice.")
Angel returns to sing Mandy and accept Lorne's advice. Lorne's assessment? "Well, you're just
the hot ticket. One night only, partially obstructed view --" That is, Angel's destiny at this
junction is unclear.
When Angel next appears in Caritas (not counting the dream sequence in "First
Impressions") looking for Darla, he sings "Ramblin' Man." But Lorne refuses to
give Angel the information he wants, saying "I tell beings what their path is -- I try to give 'em
a roadmap -- this little highway you want to take is headed straight for Disaster, Maine."
So Lorne can withhold information that he thinks will only harm the individual that he is advising.
But, further, he doesn't see everything. For example, in "Guise Will Be Guise," he does
not foresee that sending Angel to his friend the T'ish Magev will get the T'ish killed.
"Happy Anniversary" occurs smack-dab in the middle of Angel's dark patch, and is the
first time Lorne sees Angel after he fires his crew. As they rush to save the world from ending, Lorne
can't help but offer his services:
Host: ... To tell the truth, if the world were to end tonight, would it really, in your heart of hearts, be
such a terrible thing? (Nothing from Angel) Now sweetie, is that a fun place to be?
Angel: (This is hitting too close to home) I think you should shut up now.
Host: Excuse me, I'm the Host, have you met me? I never shut up. You pushed your friends away,
you went from helping the helpless to hunting down the guilty -- blood vengeance is a luxury of the
lesser being. You're a champion, Angel, I mean you were at any rate.
Angel: (beat) What do you want me to tell you?
Host: *Everything*, what's in your heart, why you stopped caring, you know, whole ball of wax, so I
can help you get back on your path... no need to rush we've got time... (checks watch) ...you know, not
a lot.
[Angel goes on to bemoan the fact that he can never win and that he couldn't save Darla.]
Host: Not always gonna be like this. The song changes. Unless of course we don't get there in time, in
which case you'll be stuck in this crappy mood forever. Shudder to think.
Lorne, like Spike, sees a lot and is not afraid to speak his mind. But unlike Spike, he wants to help
people find their path through life. Wesley and Cordy were a bit afraid to speak frankly with Angel --
and why not? He is a vampire, after all. But Lorne isn't afraid of that, perhaps because he can read
Angel well enough to know how he's going to respond. He doesn't mind being a little testy with
Angel. When Angel insists that getting to the senior partners is his destiny, but Lorne says, "Is
it? Because I haven't actually featured a destiny with you in it lately. It's all a little murky."
(Reprise) Angel is rebelling against the plans of the Powers and trying to make his own destiny.
Lorne is trying to help him find the destiny that the Powers have planned. As circumstances change,
and people follow or rebel against their fates, the paths laid out for them by the Powers change as
well.
So, for all that Lorne tries to help Angel with his problems, Angel wound up having to work through
them himself (maybe because he's not exactly good at taking advice ...).
Lorne reluctantly assists Angel in "Reprise." He can see what's coming up, but he sees it
by reading other people, and feels that passing along this information isn't ethical ("But I
really can't divulge to you what I read in another being. (then) Though I can pass along what I
overheard in the men's room."). Perhaps he senses that Angel needs to follow it through.
Angel seeks Lorne out immediately after his interlude with Darla (Epiphany).
Angel: I don't know how to get back.
Host: Well, that's the thing -- you don't. You go to the new place. Wherever that is.
(Angel looks at the Host. Weighs this, then he looks away again, can't meet the Host's eyes as he
begins, slowly, tentatively...)
Angel: I don't know if I can. I've done... things... questionable things.
Host: Yes, you have. But you didn't kill those lawyers, Angel.
(Angel looks at him. The Host looks back.)
Host: That was slated to happen with or without you. The Powers were just trying to work it so it'd
be *without* you, that's all. You just... well. You weren't much help in that department, were ya,
sparky?
(A beat as Angel take that in, anger bubbling up now...)
Angel: I wasn't much help? If they wanted me to stay away, why didn't they just *tell* me?
Host: Would you have listened? Besides, what makes you think they didn't? Over and over and, as
for example, over?
Angel: They could have been more specific.
Host: (clears throat) Er... isn't this just the sort of 'tude that got you where you are now? (Angel puts
the lid on a potential rant. Fumes a bit.) I think I speak for everyone when I say -- if all you're going
to do is switch back to brood mode, we'd rather have you evil. Because then, at least -- leather
pants.
Then Lorne points out "I'm not your link with The Powers, Angel. I never was. You got rid of
that when you fired your crew."
But when a portal opened up to Pylea and a Drokken jumped out (Belonging), things got personal for
Lorne. We're used to see him looking confident in his superior knowledge (perhaps even smug?). But
when it comes to Pylea, all that fades away. He's even reluctant to discuss it, to admit that he's even
from that place. When Angel asks him about the Drokken:
Angel: That's all you've got for us?
Wesley: What is it doing here? What does it want? What is it capable of?
Host: Who cares? It trashed my club, my clientele. (Belonging)
Later, when Landok appears through another portal in the library, Lorne says "Just because I
know his name doesn't mean you can't knock him unconscious. Please, continue."
He doesn't want to go back. It emerges that Lorne is embarrassed by a past of shame. In his world,
he's considered a coward and traitor. As Landok said, "Your vanishing was a great mystery to
our Clan.... It was hoped that you had sought atonement by forfeiting your life in the Sacrificial
Canyons of Trelinsk." His best friend denounces him (Over the Rainbow). His own mother
says, "You have shamed our clan and betrayed your kind... Each morning before I feed, I go out
into the hills where the ground is thorny and parched, beat my breast and curse the loins that gave
birth to such a cretinous boy-child" (Through the Looking Glass).
Further, Pylea has no music. As Lorne says, "*They have no music there.* It doesn't exist -- do
you know what that's like? No lullabies, no love songs -- because there aren't any. All my life I
thought I was crazy, that I had ghosts in my head or something, simply because I could hear music.
Of course, I didn't know it was music -- all I knew was that it was beautiful, and painful, and right.
And I was the only one who could hear it." (Over the Rainbow)
OK, he doesn't like Pylea. But why so afraid? It's because he's *out of his depth here*! Lorne can't sit
back and watch himself sing. He can't read his own destiny in the minute detail that he can see the
destinies of other people. He can't see whether or not he'll be able to return. Still worse, he fears that
his destiny might be to return there to stay -- that he belongs there.
In "Through the Looking Glass" Lorne tells Angel, "They see you in a certain way
... you start to see yourself that way. You become that image. I get it. I do. Because I know how they
see *me*." When Lorne popped through the portal into the Buffyverse, he could put his past
completely behind and create himself in the image he desired. At last he felt in some control. This
may be where much of his confidence comes from.
Lorne goes to a friend to get some help finding a portal for Angel's rescue mission:
Aggie: I'm getting all kindsa ugly conflict vibes comin' offa you, Lorne. And they're all pointin' at that
portal.
Host: Are you sure you're not just seeing the chili I had for lunch yesterday? 'Cause whew, you
wanna talk about conflict -- (off her look, stops) They need the hot spot because they're going to
Pylea, my home dimension.
Aggie: And you're not going with them.
Host: Aggie, I'd rather have a hydrochloric acid facial. I'd rather invite a hive of wasps to nest in my
throat. I would rather sit through a junior high school production of "Cats" -- do you see
where I'm going with this?
Aggie: Not to Pylea.
Host: Exactamundo.
Aggie: That's too bad then. Now they'll never rescue the girl.
Host: (beat) Come again?
Aggie: I can find your hot spot, Lorne, but on one condition: you've gotta go with 'em. It's the only
way you're gonna resolve these issues that are cloudin' up your aura, I can see it. Be honest, deep
down, you've always known you'd have to take that one last trip back home.
Host: It's the "last" that scares me. (Over the Rainbow)
Fortunately Lorne finds that he simply had to make the trip to confirm that he didn't have to make
the trip:
Host: My psychic friend told me I had to come back here -- I didn't believe her. Then I realized I
*did* have to come back here because I really always thought I had to come back here deep down
inside. You know? (Angel nods) I had to come back here to find out I didn't have to come back here, I
don't belong here. You know where I belong? LA. You know why? *Nobody* belongs there, it's the
perfect place for guys like us.
Angel: That's kinda beautiful.
Host: Ain't it?
Seems more obvious than profound, don't it? But it expresses a common experience (but more about
that later). We leave him realizing that he is probably the character in Angel that is happiest with
his circumstances, despite the fact that he is perhaps the one who least "belongs" there.
As he says, "You know where I belong? L.A. You know why? *Nobody* belongs there, it's the
perfect place for guys like us." (There's No Place Like Plrtz Glrb) While the other characters
were looking for belonging, Lorne had accepted his outsiderness and was happy where he was. (I'd go
further into this, but this is a tangent, perhaps entitled "Why I disagree with a lot of people
and actually got something out of the Pylea adventure" ...)
So what can we say about Lorne? Is he a force for good or evil? Lorne himself would not want to look
at it in such simplistic terms, black and white with no gray. He sees his calling rather as a servant of
the Powers, helping everyone find their path, both human and demon, good and evil, Angel and
Lindsey. He gets out of the way of the Powers That Be, telling Cordelia "... when the Big Guys
talk, I shut my yap" (Redefinition). He won't advise an evil being to turn good, helping even
Harmony find herself (Disharmony).
But we can note that he is not in favor of seeing his beloved Buffyverse end, seeking Angel's help to
prevent this event in "Happy Anniversary." And though reluctant, he does want to help
the crew find Cordelia when she's lost in Pylea. This would tend to put Lorne on the side of good,
where his own actions are concerned.
Finally, let's take a look at the dramatic purpose of Lorne. When I embarked upon this project, I soon
realized that Lorne has appeared in 15 of the 22 episodes in season 2. He plays a large role in five
episodes, "Happy Anniversary" and the big Pylea quartet that concluded the
season.
He opened the season with a rendition of "I Will Survive" in "Judgment."
Does this episode foreshadow the season?
Lorne often serves to further the plot, as characters act on his advice. During Angel's dark phase, as
I mentioned, Lorne's the person that Angel can talk to, revealing his anguished path. Sometimes he
seems to serve as a way for the writers to speak their minds, especially since he has a show-biz
consciousness. For example:
Host: ...But I think the general angst is less about the review and more about the review*er*. And
let's just say it ain't Rex Reed.
Angel: What is it?
Host: Something evil and dark and merciless. (then) Actually, now that I say it out loud, sounds an
awful lot like Rex, doesn't it?
I hypothesize that the experience of an unsatisfactory return home (as though to Pylea) is a
relatively common Hollywood experience. Creative people often feel like aliens growing up. I expect
that after they are successful, they may return home (for a high school reunion or whatever) only to
find the experience an empty one. Although they may be renowned in their home town, they may
still feel as freakish as ever they felt growing up. Further, many in Hollywood "invent"
themselves, creating personas that no one they grew up with would recognize.
Lorne also adds music and color to the mix. With his bright colors, snappy dialog and forthright
manner provide a nice counterpoint to and relief from Angel's brooding persona. He provides some
syncopation, if you will, to the rhythm of the series.
But the last four episodes fill us in on Lorne's back story. Up to that point, Lorne appears as a
mentor and commentator, someone mostly outside of the main action (with the exception of
"Happy Anniversary"). These episodes reveal more of what makes him tick.
This begs the question, Why? This hints that the writers are fond of Lorne and aren't satisfied with
him remaining the eyes you see over the back fence. It points to the possibility that the Powers
intend to expand Lorne's role in the future. Whether or not the viewer is satisfied by this prospect
depends on whether he/she likes the idea of a mentor who is something of a cipher himself. Which
brings me to the next point.
Does the character work?
I've seen several negative comments regarding the 2nd season wrap-up. Some seem to have been
disappointed to know more about Lorne. However, if his role is indeed to be expanded, this is almost
a necessary development. If you don't like Lorne, this may not be a positive thing. Obviously, since I
took on the challenge of writing this article, I take the opposite point of view.
So, kind posters, please take the time to post your opinion. Do you like Lorne? Hate him? Never want
to hear another Karaoke tune again? Do you think he was fine until you found out too much about
him?
OK, that's it. Yep, it's a lot for a character who hasn't been around long. Please let me know what
you think.
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[> [> Re: Same thing, improved format -- Masq, 10:33:02 09/24/01 Mon
I got something out of the pylea adventure too, mostly those great Deathwok clan folk dances!!
A new Buffy/Angel Email Discussion List!! -- Kat, 18:34:30
09/19/01 Wed
Hi:
I just found this great board! I'm so glad!
I also wanted to mention that I started a Buffy and Angel TV show Discussion list.
It's a small group now but we hope to get more folks to join. If you're interested in joining, please go
here:
http://www.angelfire.com/wa2/katsplace/BuffyAngel.htm
We would love to have you help us talk about these two GREAT shows. We can't wait till the new
seasons start!
Thanks for reading!
Kat
TV guide article *spoilers* -- Deeva, 22:52:44 09/19/01
Wed
Found this to be a bit interesting. I know how much some of you loath Herc over at AICN so I took
the time to find the original article so that you won't be subjected to the sickly, green guy. I
personally don't mind him.
http://www.tvguide.com/newsgossip/insider/010919b.asp
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[> Dawn the ... -- Helen, 01:24:09 09/20/01 Thu
Would you guys actually want to watch that show? I can say pretty catagorically that I wouldn't. It
just wouldn't be right, at all. For one thing, I don't think it could be squared - Faith dies, and the
next slayer is .. the last but one's sister? Come on!!
And I cannot stand Dawn. In fact although I really enjoyed series 5, I just loathed her. Even Joss
could not make it ring true for me.
Does anyone agree? Or can anyone make me see the light?
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[> [> I reluctantly agree -- Earl Allison, 02:17:38 09/20/01 Thu
I have to agree with you, "Dawn the Vampire Slayer" wouldn't hold a lot of interest for
me -- and personally would IMHO constitute "jumping the shark."
Michelle is a fine actress, and I don't dislike her character too much (albeit I cannot STAND the
retcon of her insertion changing all the past episodes -- like they WOULDN'T have impacted
anything? Sure they wouldn't), but I watch a show called "Buffy the Vampire Slayer."
Remove Buffy, and you may as well start a new spinoff like "Angel."
And it took the addition of Drusilla and the guesting of Faith to get me to watch and enjoy
"Angel." Without SMG in the title role, I don't see myself caring about the show that
much.
Just my $.02
Take it and run.
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[> [> [> Re: I wholeheartedly agree -- Scout, 11:53:56 09/23/01 Sun
I'm not aiming this particularly at anyone on this board who happens to possess both an X and a Y
chromosome, but if Joss & Co. had decided to make Buffy's newly-created younger sibling a yummy
looking teenage *boy* instead of a girl (and the part played by a highly talented lad), how many of
you would still have been as readily accepting of the new character and the existence of those all-too-
creepy false memories? Given MT's actual age, I'm really uncomfortable with what I consider to be
an undue interest by some in Dawn and her leather pants (be they evil or otherwise).
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[> [> Re: Dawn the ... -- Kendra, 13:58:46 09/20/01 Thu
I agree. I simply was unable to become emotionally invested in Dawn. This was my reason for not
enjoying the season finale as much as I wanted to.
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[> [> Agree and disagree at the same time... -- Kerri, 16:53:08 09/20/01 Thu
First let me say that I love Dawn. When the season started I couldn't stand her; she annoyed me so
much. But once she found out she was the key she really became interesting-she was more than a
brat kid sister. I loved the B/D relationship-it was just what Buffy needed(and don't they have great
chemistry?).
But, honestly, for me "Dawn the Vampire Slayer" doesn't do it. I love Buffy-IMO she's a
great character. Sure I like the other characters, they help make the show so awesome-but I watch
the show because of Buffy. Without Buffy I don't think "Buffy the vampire slayer" would
be too good.
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[> [> [> Personally... -- Marie, 01:16:22 09/21/01 Fri
..I think MT was a wonderful addition to an already great cast. What imaginations these writers
have!
And "Dawn the Vampire Slayer"? Well I'd have to watch and see, 'cos, hey, Joss Whedon,
y'know?
M
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[> [> [> [> Re: Likewise, personally... -- OnM, 05:27:25 09/21/01 Fri
Anyone who's followed my idle speculations from last year already knows that I favor the idea of a
'Slayer Trinity' with Buffy, Faith and Dawn, so I guess I don't need to say anything else in that I
fully accept the idea of Dawn as the next Slayer.
I think that MT is staggeringly gifted as an actor, esp. for such a tender age, and that she has been a
wonderful addition to the cast.
I also think that it could make for some great humor and drama as Buffy would have to deal with the
idea of her younger sister becoming obligated to take on the duties she has had to deal with. Anyone
think that would make her happy? Noooo, methinks very much not. (Movie ref: *Legends of the
Fall*, where the father helplessly watches his sons follow in his footsteps as they insist on going off
to war, with of course disasterous results).
I'm really looking forward to the Buffy/Dawn interactions this season, lotsa tasty potential
there.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Likewise, personally... -- John Burwood, 13:29:48 09/21/01 Fri
I agree that MT has been brilliant, & I love the character of Dawn - might not love her bratty
moments in real life, but they work great in the series. I also reckon I could accept Dawn as a Slayer,
but it would have to be earned to be credible - to be a lot more than pure chance. And,looking at the
TVGuide interview, MT just mentions being asked if she would be interested in a spin-off. Nowhere
in what I read did she mention being a Slayer in the spin-off. The article writer might just have
added that to make a better story.
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[> [> Re: Dawn the ... -- vampire hunter D, 08:52:02 09/21/01 Fri
If you ask me, while MT could carry her own series, I don't think they should make Dawn the Slayer.
First off, the sister of the current Slayer being called is too much of a stretch to believe. Second,
Dawn is the Key. That in my mind prevents her from being a Slayer (you can be one or the other, not
both). And thirdly, to call Dawn we would need to kill Faith. And Faith is my favorite character in
the whole Whedonverse (I'm developing a fanfic where we can kill he and bring her back, so that we
can see the next Slayer's calling. And the way I do it is really interesting.).
You know, a while back, they were talking about Faith the Vampire Slayer, with Eliza taking over
the show when Sarah quits. It's like no one thinks SMG will stay with the show.
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[> [> [> Re: Dawn the ... -- Marie, 08:57:22 09/21/01 Fri
I agree that I don't actually see Dawn as "The Slayer", per se, but as "A
Slayer"? Why not? She has to have some 'key' qualities, so to speak, that we haven't yet been
shown. And the other Scoobies have slain, without the 'keyness'. Faith wouldn't have to die, and
Dawn has friends to help and a vampire and a watcher to train and guide her.
M
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[> Re: TV guide article *spoilers* -- mundusmundi, 12:24:04 09/22/01 Sat
While I'm admittedly a little biased when it comes to the Dawnster, I think a spinoff would be
promising. I've heard this "Slayer" speculation before, and though it'd certainly be
intriguing, do we really want her to be one? The show's M.O. has always been, as I think a struggling
playwright once said, "to thineself be true." I suspect we may see Dawn trying to be a
slayer this season, only to discover that she's just not cut out for it, that she has a different destiny
in store.
Can a vampire maintain ANY semblance of
goodness without direct intervention? -- Earl Allison, 03:41:01 09/20/01 Thu
We've seen vampires attempt to behave as something other than ravenous monsters, like Harmony's
brief attempts to do good in "Disharmony," or Spike's alliance with Buffy in Season
Two.
Is it a given than a vampire is instantly and totally evil and without any goodness left?
Could a vampire attempt to do good, much like Angel or Spike, without a soul or some other
behavior-modifying device like the Initiative chip?
Granted, the vampire would need to feed, and probably wouldn't want anything other than human
blood, but would it be possible for a vampire to exist in a Batman-like sort of role, feeding on those he
considers "evil," and therefore acceptable losses in a greater fight? Possibly not even
feeding enough to KILL the victim, but merely to sate its own hunger as well?
Take it and run.
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[> Re: Can a vampire maintain ANY semblance of goodness without direct intervention? --
vampire hunter D, 07:41:05 09/20/01 Thu
Once again, someone has touched on the one issue I have with the show. Vampire=automatically
evil. I much prefer the way it is in Vampire: the MAsquerade where some vampires can be
good.
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[> [> Re: Can a vampire maintain ANY semblance of goodness without direct intervention? --
John Burwood, 12:40:27 09/20/01 Thu
Define goodness: that is the question. For example, surely giving to charity is doing a good, but if you
choose only to give to charity on live TV in front of a cheering audience in order to hear everyone say
what a good guy you are and feel better about yourself, aren't you being selfish rather than good?
Remember Tara in Crush on the Hunchback being selfishly motivated because he was inspired by
love not morality. A telling comment in that episode, wouldn't you say?
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[> [> [> Spikemodo -- Voxpopuli, 13:19:58 09/20/01 Thu
No, because I utterly disagree with her reading of the Hunchback. I love this book and also Les
Miser‡bles, as I believe they are truly masterpieces by Victor Hugo, and I do not see love as a selfish
motivation in the context of Quasimodo, actually there are other stances of love in the same book
that could be considered selfish or immoral, but not exactly Quasimodo's. But then... the character I
like the least in that book is Esmeralda! What exactly is a selfish motivation, is selfism inherently
evil or destructive for the community? As a pessimistic a believe in selfism as a driving force, as that
"get rid of unpleasant things, and seeking satisfaction" that is not necessarily destructive
at all. But back to Quasimodo... Victor Hugo has that lovely inability to write a truly happy story. All
of his characters do have a grey shade. The most hideous of his characters can still attract your
sympathy in some circumstances, and this is in my opinion, his greatest merit. He implies that
perfection is non existent, and the quest for perfection in the form of perfect happiness is our
greatest source of grief. You wish for the stars, and you'll never be able to touch them. Quasimodo's
love is most pure of all, as he does care and protect her above himself. He does the same for the
priest who cared for him, he is loyal by instinct and protective in essence. He does not strike out of
anger, rather out of grief, and is inhumane in his selflessness. Like a pet dog he guards Esmeralda
who is the reflection of what he will never be, but is so like him, in her faith in beauty, and innocence
in the mundane world. She falls prey to the ideas she has, to her own fantasies and so she is doomed,
and Quasimodo is doomed as well. The most interesting character is Claude (God, my memory! Blast
these pregnancy hormones! They are ruining my memory!), the priest who is torn between love and
his faith, and leans towards love, but ugly and bitter, is not one to attract the romantic eyes of a
teen. He gets even more bitter, and he sees the problems Esmeralda is getting into, and out of
despair, chooses to destroy her. To destroy love inside of him. His love is destructive because
unrequited, destructive because he drowns in it and can not think clearly, and lets himself go with
passion. He is as selfish as Quasimodo, if you consider love for one person a selfish thing, but he is
destructive because he does not know what do do with that love. Spike is a mix of Quasimodo and
this priest. He does not know what to do with this love, and tries to destory it, but he is also much
too loyal, and pure in his feelings to keep going on this purpose, he'd rather die than see Buffy die,
just like the Hunchback. Spike-modo, a man inside a monster, one could say after the episodes that
followed Crush. To think that to love one person is to be selfish... if you want you can find selfism in
everything and everyone, even in Madre Teresa, but the fact is, at least in my point of view, that
when one loves a person and thinks of this person even before he thinks of himself, that is something
precious, something that should be praised.
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[> [> [> [> Hormones & pregnancy (totally O/T---you've been warned...;)) --
LadyStarlight, 15:39:14 09/20/01 Thu
I explained my utter lack of brain power in both pregnancies by saying "all my brain cells
migrated down to be with the baby". Don't know if anybody bought it, but it made me feel
better.
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[> [> [> [> [> Mine, too! -- Marie, 01:13:06 09/21/01 Fri
"all my brain cells migrated down to be with the baby".
Trouble is, I don't think I got them all back!
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Mine, too! -- Cynthia, 03:27:13 09/21/01 Fri
I think mine are just suffering from 8 years of sleep deprived coma. Hoping to get at least some of
them back when I cart my two off to college. LOL
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> OT: wild life! -- Voxpopuli, 04:15:49 09/21/01 Fri
It is my first born. Mom tells me that NOW I'll know what a real wild life feels like! :-))
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[> [> [> [> [> It's a recognized syndrome around here...it's called "preggo-
brain!" -- Wisewoman, 08:25:05 09/21/01 Fri
Individuals suffering from preggo-brain cannot be held accountable for the things they forget, or
screw up. It's a great system!
;o)
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Hormones & pregnancy (totally O/T---you've been warned...;)) --
Scout, 11:35:20 09/23/01 Sun
I accepted it as the obligatory loss of 10 IQ points that comes with pregnancy. Fortunately, most of
us here can spare that many without feeling too much of a loss (although I do wonder if it's
cumulative - like, having, say, 5 children means you lose 50 points). I'm certain we get them back
someday, but by then our children are teenagers and think of us as cretins anyway. What, cynical,
moi?
The loss of sleep, however, is a whole 'nother thang. For the last ten years, I swear, I haven't slept an
entire night through without either (a) playing musical beds, meaning that I wake up in the morning
having to do that thing where you wonder where you are for a few seconds before coming fully
awake, or (b) waking up with a small boy's bony elbow or knee poking me in the bladder.
Still, I'll miss it when they're too big to hunker down under the covers and cuddle with me on a
Saturday morning.
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[> [> [> So is it the act, or the intent? -- Earl Allison, 08:43:09 09/21/01 Fri
Problem is, we don't always know WHY someone does something, only that they do (or do not, as the
case may be).
If the ACT is moral, rather than the result, we would need to see into people's heads. Heck, get
tricky enough, and we could say that Angel doesn't do good -- he's only trying to make up for past
sins -- something of a selfish, conscience-salving thing. In fact, can vampires even be evil then?
Without a conscience telling them right from wrong, is their intent evil, or simply normal for them? I
sense the ugly head of ethical relativism rearing its head here :)
With your argument, Spike wouldn't really be doing good per se, he's mostly doing it out of love for
Buffy, not for the intrinsic goodness of the act. After all, Spike DID feed from the man Dru killed for
him at the Bronze -- he allowed her to kill the man, and then drank from him, two bad acts. Ditto for
saying he'd stake Dru -- not out of the notion that Dru was bad and NEEDED to be killed, but only to
"impress" Buffy.
The real test for Spike would be to remove the chip and give him a situation where he could help or
attack someone outside the Scoobies, and never be caught or found out no matter which choice he
made -- THAT would determine whether he was doing the right thing because it WAS right, or
merely because it was in front of Buffy and friends.
Take it and run.
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[> [> [> [> Re: So is it the act, or the intent? -- Humanitas, 14:11:24 09/21/01 Fri
One of the things that actors struggle with every working day is Why Characters Do What They Do.
The script tells us What They Say, and the script and the director indicate What They Do, but it is
up to us to figure out Why. And this is an essential part of playing the character believably. If you
don't know Why your character is doing wherever it is he's doing at the moment, the audience will
see you as just "going through the motions." I guarantee you that if you ask JM, he can
tell you why Spike odes every single thing that he does.
Anyway, I'm rambling. The point is that actors have developed this trick of inferring motivations
from actions. It is for most of us a long and painful process of studying the script, talking with the
director (if we are lucky enough to have a patient director), and ultimately making a choice, a
decision. What's worse, if you're one of the supremely fortunate actors who gets to work on BtVS,
Star Trek, or any other series with a high TTMQ, you make that decision knowing that you're going
to be second-guessed by the fans, and very possibly contradicted by the writers a season or so
later.
Ack! Rambling again! Sorry.
Anyway, the point is that you can apply the actors' technique to any series of historical events, be
they in the Realverse or in the Buffyverse. All you have to look at are the tapes of the episodes, and
you make all your inferences from there. Does this get you The Truth? No. There ain't no such
animal. We can never know the absolute truth about anyone's motivations. Only that individual can
know that. The actors' trick can give you a truth, though, and you can use that to judge the morality
of the action, assuming that you think that motivation is important. The big benefit here, though, is
that you are constantly aware that the best you can do is arrive at one interpretation of the evidence,
and that the evidence is always open to other interpretations, which may well be equally valid.
OK, so we can establish that any set of actions lends itself to a multitude of interpretations as far as
motivation is concerned. Since morality, almost by definition, needs to be based on absolutes, don't
we then have to throw out motivation as a condition of morality? The best you can hope for is to use
motivation as a mitigating or exacerbating circumstance. Motivation may shove the morality of an
action closer to or farther away from morally neutral, but it cannot determine where the action
starts on that scale.
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[> [> [> [> [> motivations & assumptions -- anom, 20:05:02 09/22/01 Sat
"The big benefit here, though, is that you are constantly aware that the best you can do is
arrive at one interpretation of the evidence, and that the evidence is always open to other
interpretations, which may well be equally valid."
Well, some people are aware of that. The problem, especially in real life, is that many people make
assumptions about other people's motivations. They can't see past what would cause them to do the
same thing & don't realize that it could mean something totally different to another person.
Then they treat that person according to the motivations--positive or negative--they attribute to
them on the basis of their actions.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: motivations & assumptions -- Humanitas, 11:53:30 09/23/01
Sun
Exactly my point. That's why I'm arguing that the technique needs to be used self-conciously,
especially if we're talking about real life. We have a tremendous advantage, in that we're talking
about fictional characters, and we have a huge amount of evidence to interpret, in the form of
episodes, shooting scripts, and interviews. The fact is, we don't know what exactly is going through
Angel's head as he does his good deeds. We can interpret the evidence in a number of different ways,
either leaning toward or against redemption. All those interpretations can be legitimate, at least
until contradicted by new evidence coming to light.
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[> [> [> [> Re: So is it the act, or the intent? -- JohnBurwood, 07:46:49 09/22/01 Sat
I totally concur with you about the real test for Spike. I also am inclined to concur with your analysis
of Angel. His attempt to achieve redemption definitely has at least a partially selfish motivation to
it. As with Faith's surrender & confession - she is primarily motivated to save herself, not others.
Buffy's periodic bouts of reluctance to be the Slayer showed she was much more motivated to help
others, but even she gets comfort food out of Slaying. As with most politicians, selfish & selfless
motives can easily be inextricably intertwined and perfectly compatible.
What's in a name? -- Marie, 07:06:09 09/20/01 Thu
Don't fall over when you read this, but I actually did some work today!! And it involved going
through pages and pages of student names and numbers, and entering stuff on computer. To get to
my point (who said 'finally'?!), I noticed, for the first time that I can remember (and I've worked here
a few years now) that we have a young lady called Willow coming here next week (not 'Rosenberg',
though). I've also seen an Alexander Harris, and one or two Tara's recently. Seen a few Giles and
Anya's, and Angel is not uncommon these days. Never seen: Buffy, Wesley, Cordelia or Gunn (or
Lorne!).
Not ruling them out, though - expect to see one or two Buffy's in 10 or 12 years' time!
Anyone actually know any real-life ones? Anyone called their progeny by well-known names?
Marie
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[> Forgot to ask... -- Marie, 07:21:32 09/20/01 Thu
..in the above post: How do you think BtVS has affected your own lives? One of the things it has
given me is more tolerance, perhaps, for the quirks other people have. For myself, among other
things, it's shown me that people can be different - different isn't always bad. Although I knew that
before, of course, it made me think about it more, and it's definitely affected my attitude to people.
I'm more careful to take into account other people's feelings.
M
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[> Re: What's in a name? -- vampire hunter D, 07:30:51 09/20/01 Thu
I wouldn't expect to see Buffy anytime soon. I don't think it's a real name. I think it was just a
knickname amonst those bubbleheaded Valley Girls. Also, I've never heard of anyone with the name
Cordelia. The only two cordelias I've heard of were both fictitious characters (Cordelia on Buffy and
the other was the daughtr of King Lear).
I don't have any kids of my own yet (and I don't want any), but I do have some names picked out:
Victor Liam Karen
btw, does anyone remember the names of King Lear's other two daughters?
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[> [> Re: What's in a name? -- Rattletrap, 07:39:00 09/20/01 Thu
I'd beg to differ, it is a real name, just an uncommon one. I have known one person named Buffie, not
quite the same spelling, but same pronunciation.
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[> [> Re: What's in a name? -- Voxpopuli, 07:46:43 09/20/01 Thu
Well, The son of my ex-boyfriend's cousin is named Wesley. The name is not unusual around here,
not popular either. As for Cordelia, this is an old name for us, people who are not fictional characters
do have this name, but just old people. Buffy... I've only seen dogs named Buffy! Usually female
labradors.
I am pretty traditional concerning names, as well as everybody in my family. My boy will be named
Bernardo (same as Bernard in English) If one day I have a girl I'll name her Luiza or Beatriz. Luiza
because it sounds strong, means "enlightened"and because it is one my favourite songs
by Tom Jobim ( like a ray of sunlight in your hair, that as a diamong splits the light in seven colour,
revealing the seven thousand loves I kept inside only to give you...) . Beatriz because it means
blessed, saintly, and goes pretty well with our family name.
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[> [> Changing names -- Drizzt, 08:28:05 09/20/01 Thu
vhD you think noone will name their kids Buffy? or change thier name to Buffy? IMHO Buffy was a
semiderogetory nickname until the show BTVS, and now it is a cool name because it is the name of a
loved fictional hero...
I changed my legal name to something I made up based on phoenetics(just combined sounds until I
got a name I liked, and no my legal name is not Drizzt!)
Some guy(in LA I think...) changed his legal name to Jesus Christ. He went around town nude except
for a trenchcoat and flashed old women. This is a real story...
BTW changing your name officially in court costs about $70.00 to $100.00 and only takes two
weeks...
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[> [> Goneril and Regan -- Marie, 08:53:49 09/20/01 Thu
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[> [> Re: What's in a name? -- dream of the corsortium, 09:49:51 09/20/01 Thu
There's also the folk musician Buffy Sainte-Marie.
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[> Re: What's in a name? -- Neil Armstrong, 12:43:45 09/20/01 Thu
my Dads last name was Armstrong. He named me Neil. Nuff said...
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[> [> Cool! -- Wisewoman, 12:49:03 09/20/01 Thu
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[> Re: What's in a name? -- Scout, 15:48:58 09/20/01 Thu
My high school band director back in the 1970s named her daughter Elizabeth but called her
Buffy.
A good friend of mine working in Australia in 1988 had a friend in Sydney named Willow.
I have a cousin named Niles. Close, but no cigar. He pre-dates "Frasier",
incidentally.
My ex-stepfather's middle name was Wesley, and since he was born circa 1940 Georgia, that's pretty
surprising. Glad he's my *ex*-stepfather, though. Can we say "Ted"? The words
"little lady" make me grind my teeth to this day.
I don't have a BtVS name, but my real one is from a novel. My name truly is Scout (because, as I've
said elsewhere, my dad *really, really* liked "To Kill a Mockingbird"). Funnily enough,
today I'm feeling annoyed because I've discovered that someone on the Kitten board is using my
name.
Could be worse. Having been born and raised in Atlanta, it seems to me that it would've been worse
if either of my parents had been a huge fan of "Gone With the Wind", given their basis
for choosing a name for their only daughter.
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[> [> Scout! Where've you been? -- vampire hunter D, 17:30:04 09/20/01 Thu
It's been over a month since I remember seeing a post form you.
The little mermaid and Spike -- briseis, 07:49:21 09/20/01 Thu
If the little mermaid got a soul for giving up her life for the prince....
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[> Go on. Finish your sentence. -- vampire hunter D, 09:40:47 09/20/01 Thu
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[> Hey... how come...? -- Wisewoman, 13:27:00 09/20/01 Thu
Willow can't give Spike a soul? A long time ago, in Becoming Pt 2, when she was basically just a
computer nerd and a Wiccan wannabe, she managed to restore Angel's soul with the help of a gypsy
curse, even whilst in her hospital bed.
So how come, now that she's an amazingly powerful witch, she can't just curse (or bless) Spike with a
soul? She wouldn't have to put in the "happiness" failsafe, and then he could keep his
soul, even if he and Buffy did get together.
Just a thought... ;o)
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[> [> Re: Hey... how come...? -- Nina, 15:29:14 09/20/01 Thu
It's of my understanding that Angel's curse was specific to him not to all vamps (maybe I am
wrong?). And the thing is that it was a curse, not a gift. Angel wasn't given a soul, he was cursed
with one (not beeing able to have a moment of happiness was the goal of the curse). I don't really see
Willow wanting to curse Spike. If Angel had disappeared into oblivion it may have been played
differently. They could have brought back the curse into the story line. Now with Angel having his
own show, they would really suck by their lack of imagination! ;)
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[> [> [> Re: Hey... how come...? -- Drizzt, 16:38:14 09/20/01 Thu
Minor point; Willow reactivated a preexisting curse, she did not cast the original one. I think
reactivating a spell would be much easier and require less knowladge than the ability to cast a curse
of that magnitude.
Willow now & in season 6 is probably powerfull enough to cast a spell that powerfull, however the
curse itself is a different spell than the spell to reactivate the curse.
Of course I could be wrong; do not have the relivant episodes on tape.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Hey... how come...? -- Lucifer_Sponge, 19:24:01 09/20/01 Thu
A couple of points here...
The curse was not specific to Angel. I remember a scene in the episode where Jenny died... She went
into the magic shop and asked the owner for an Orb of Thesulah. The owner retrieved one and gave
it to her, he said -
"By the way, you do know that the transliteration annals for the ritual of the undead were lost.
Without the annals, the surviving text is gibberish."
This means that the spell was used for beings other than Angel. I doubt that the spell would be that
well-known if it had been used on only one vampire...
Another point... I don't think Willow was simply re-activating a curse. The reason she was able to
pull off something that powerful is because - as it has been speculated - she was seemingly possessed
during the ritual. She has undoubtably reached a level where she could easily preform such a
ceremony without the help of an outside spirit or force. Which makes me wonder... aside from the
fact that it might ruin the show, and the writers wouldn't want to do it... Why doesn't Willow just
make some slight alterations in the ritual, take a little trip down to L.A, and fix it so there's no
happiness clause? And, another obscure question... If Anya was capable of turning Olaf into a troll
when she was just a dabbler in magic (not a witch and not anywhere -near- Willow's level of power)
then doesn't it stand to reason that Willow could pretty much make Angel human again?
Ok, and my last and final point... about Willow preforming the spell on Spike... It could be (and HAS
been) argued that Spike's soul already -has- returned...
So, that's my two... err, ok, 50 cents on that matter.
~Sponge
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[> [> [> [> [> My Bad! Only have eps from last 1.5 seasons on tape.... -- Drizzt,
19:34:42 09/20/01 Thu
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Hey... how come...? -- Rattletrap, 06:06:18 09/21/01 Fri
"By the way, you do know that the transliteration annals for the ritual of the undead were lost.
Without the annals, the surviving text is gibberish."
I had always taken that conversation between Jenny and the Shopkeeper to mean that there were
several different rituals that could be performed on the undead with an Orb of Thesulah, and that
the restoration ritual was one of them.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Hey... how come...? -- Lucifer_Sponge, 06:56:49 09/21/01
Fri
I had always taken that conversation between Jenny and the Shopkeeper to mean that there were
several different rituals that could be performed on the undead with an Orb of Thesulah, and that
the restoration ritual was one of them.
Hmmm... you're probably right, but it still seems unlikely that the soul restoration ritual was
created solely to be used on Angel.
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[> [> [> [> [> Rubber Soul -- SandraL, 00:19:02 09/22/01 Sat
> It could be (and HAS been) argued that
> Spike's soul already -has- returned...
Just in case - SPOILER FOR "THE GIFT" * * * * * * Except that, in The Gift, Doc told
Spike that he didn't "smell a soul anywhere on [him]". Either Doc was mistaken, or that
theory has been disproved.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> smelling souls & Dawn's Key-energy (possible mild Gift &
Intervention spoilers) -- anom, 20:25:33 09/22/01 Sat
"Except that, in The Gift, Doc told Spike that he didn't 'smell a soul anywhere on [him]'. Either
Doc was mistaken, or that theory has been disproved."
Remember in Intervention, when Glory upbraided her minions for bringing Spike to her? She sniffed
at him & said (something like) "This is a vampire. They're no good for anything. Can't even
brain-suck them." So apparently a soul is something that can be "smelled" by
certain gods or demons. But neither of them could tell that Dawn was the Key. (Well, we don't know
for sure about Doc one way or the other--maybe he just didn't let on--but Glory definitely didn't
know.) Glory didn't know Tara wasn't the Key till she tasted her blood. So maybe the Key-energy
smells like a soul. Maybe it is Dawn's soul, or at least functions like one (to bring this thread around
to an earlier topic).
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[> Re: The little mermaid and Spike -- vampire hunter D, 08:35:51 09/21/01 Fri
As I remember it, the little mermaid DIDN'T get a soul at all. She died, and didn't go to heaven
because she did not have a soul. Of couse, I haven't heard the original story since 2nd grade.
Okay, I have a question for you.... -- Liq, 16:05:15 09/20/01
Thu
We have all this talk about Angel falling for someone else... Cordy, Fred, Kate, whomever...
Don't the same rules apply here? If he falls in love again, isn't he at risk for that one moment of
perfect happiness and hello Angelus?
I realize that the incident with Darla proved to him that sex does not equate to happiness, but what
about true love?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Slight spoilery spec above?? -- Masq, 16:20:55 09/20/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> nope.... not really ... off the top of my head. -- Liq, 16:48:54 09/20/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Okay, I have a question for you.... -- vampire hunter D, 17:35:23 09/20/01 Thu
Unfortuneately, the same rules apply. Which means that whomever he falls in love with, he wouldn't
be able to consumate the relationship. Of course, if all he wanted was some tail, he could just pick up
some girl at a club or something (I doubt many would turn him down).
But there is another problem. It's not a moment of orgasm turns him evil, it's a moment of
happiness. And there are other things than sex that make people happy. We talk about how he never
smiles, well that's a good thing. As long as he is miserable, everyone else is safe.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Okay, I have a question for you.... -- LadyStarlight, 18:08:16 09/20/01 Thu
You know, I just yesterday finished a story that deals with just that issue.
One of my major questions was: How come nothing happened to his soul when they got back from
Pylea? You would think he would've been pretty darn happy then, right?
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[> [> Re: Okay, I have a question for you.... -- Kerri, 18:53:34 09/20/01 Thu
I think of it as a moment that he is no longer paying for what he did by suffereing. Remember this
curse was meant to cause Angel to suffer. He was able to lose his fears and self-hatred in Buffy. Just
my take on it.
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[> [> [> *Spoilerish* speculation -- Simplicity, 21:17:00 09/20/01 Thu
Angel's one night stand with Darla did prove that he could have sex with someone and not lose his
soul. I think we all agree that it was physcially expressing his love for Buffy that caused it.
We've all heard that he has "growing but unrequited feelings for Cordeila." Nothing in
that statement has to point to love.
He could have sexual feelings for Cordelia. Actually, looking at the scene in Belonging where he's
describing the skimpy outfit she was wearing, he looks decidedly lusty.
I think that this would be very unAngellike to want a sexual affair with someone but it's
possible.
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[> [> [> [> Re: *Spoilerish* speculation -- Marie, 01:35:16 09/21/01 Fri
Only an opinion, but maybe the character was written as one of those who might have many loves
through his life, but only one true love. This happened to me, when I was 19. I've never stopped
loving him, rarely a day goes by that I don't think of him, but life goes on, and I've loved others.
Perhaps, for Angel, Buffy is that perfect one, and he'll never capture that moment of pure bliss with
anyone else.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: *Spoilerish* speculation -- OnM, 05:16:57 09/21/01 Fri
I'll pretty much go with Marie on this, her explanation sounds reasonable.
My vote would be towards Fred as the potential love interest. I have to wonder about the significance
of her not being afraid of the beast Angel turned into when in Pylea, or that scene where she draws
him away from killing Wesley and Gunn by holding up her hand, covered in blood. Maybe I'm
reading more into that scene that there is (nahhh!!!!) but the gesture itself, the body language, the
look on her face-- for someone who was so conditioned to fear by her life in Pylea, it seemed--- a
strange thing to do, to tempt such a horror, yet she did. So, metaphorical significance?
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: *Spoilerish* speculation -- Rattletrap, 06:02:23 09/21/01
Fri
Let's also not forget Fred's complete unconcern about talking to a severed head in a basket. I guess
life on Pylea produces a pretty high tolerance for the macabre or gruesome, or something. If they
keep that apsect of her character next season, she could be great fun.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Fred -- Marie, 08:01:52 09/21/01 Fri
Personally, I've never gone along with the idea that Angel and Cordy might get together - I know he
was pleased when he thought she meant him when she said "I love him" and slightly
disappointed when it turned out she meant 'Groo', but I always thought that was because he'd tried
so hard to get back into her good books, post-Epiphany, and finally was getting some approbation
from her. And I don't think that Cordy (apart from fancying him, Season 1) sees Angel as potential
love-material - she thinks he's far too dangerous.
Getting to Fred - I see her as far from conditioned by fear. She's an amazingly brave cookie, in my
opinion. She was sucked through a portal into another world, captured as a 'cow' and enslaved. She
disabled the neck thingummyjig, fled to her cave and foraged (risking certain execution) for food, all
the while trying to figure out the 'magic words' that would re-open the portal and take her home.
Angel saved her, and then warned her that she might see something that frightened her, but that he
was her friend. (He meant vampire, turned out to be a little more!). She still trusted in him, though,
showing a lot of faith, and a lot of guts to go after him. She's obviously seen a lot of horrible things in
her time in Pylea, yet still retains a degree of innocence which is palpable. I'd think this would be
very attractive to Angel, who has a definite knight-in-shining-armour quality. I think he'd treat her
as a sort of pet, at first, but wouldn't be at all surprised if it became something more. He might not
get the 'pure bliss' moment that he had with Buffy, but I think he'd settle for 'pretty dang happy,
here!", what say you?
M
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> I vote for "pretty dang happy"! ;-) -- Solitude1056,
22:53:58 09/21/01 Fri
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[> [> [> Re: Okay, I have a question for you.... -- Scout, 08:45:28 09/23/01 Sun
I've always thought it was a pretty daft curse. OK, sure once Angel got his soul back he suffered
aplenty, but then to have it set up so that when he got that one moment of "perfect
happiness" he would lose his soul again - well, guess what, as soon as he became Angelus in
S2, he didn't give a toss about his soul any longer, was happy it was gone, and was ready to start
chowing down on all those happy meals on legs. Oh, and let's not forget that little issue of trying to
destroy the world.
Seems to me that when the gypsies cursed Angel, they should have informed him from the get-go
what would happen if he ever got happy. Add that knowledge to his guilt about all his actions as a
vampire, and, voila, even more misery. As it was, when he lost his soul again, he purely didn't
care.
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[> Re: Okay, I have a question for you.... -- Shaglio, 06:09:35 09/21/01 Fri
I was under the inpression that the soul that the gypsies restored was cursed. I missed the first 2 1/2
seasons, but I thought he experienced true happiness with Buffy and lost his soul, thus becoming
Angelus again. He then got his soul back (was it HIS soul, or just A soul?), but nothing says that his
current soul is still cursed.
It could be that this curse was a one shot deal. He experienced true love and the curse took affect.
That's it. Now he has another soul and no curse (except in his mind).
Just a possibility to debate. Luckily Angel isn't like me, or he would have lost his soul the first time
he had Ben & Jerry's Chocolate Chip Cookie Dough ice cream.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> oops -- Shaglio, 06:25:04 09/21/01 Fri
A couple people below in another thread (Wisewoman and Drizzt) mentioned that it was Willow who
restored Angel's soul (as well as his curse). Damn! I thought I was finally onto something :(
Retribution -- Solitude1056, 06:36:29 09/21/01 Fri
Stumbled across this article at http://slate.msn.com/Earthling/01-09-19/Earthling.asp. Rough
summary: retribution is awarded a high moral value because it's an instinct that's been cultivated in
our genetic history as a means to survival. Whether it has application in this day & age is
questionable - and that got me thinking about Buffy and her retaliatory instincts. Just figured
something to maybe get folks thinking in the last week before a new AtS episode, and what, two
weeks to go before BtVS? ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> 11 suns! -- Masq, 08:57:51 09/21/01 Fri
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[> Taking time to think . . . and time to avoid thinking -- d'Herblay, 19:38:42 09/21/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Writing: 1% inspiration, 9% perspiration, 90% procrastination -- d'Herblay, 10:15:40
09/22/01 Sat
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[> [> [> as opposed to baseball -- mundusmundi, 12:12:31 09/22/01 Sat
Which is, to hear the esteemed philosopher Yogi Berra tell it: "50% luck, 50% skill, and the rest
is mental."*
*many variations of this quote
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[> [> [> Re: Writing: 1% inspiration, 9% perspiration, 90% procrastination -- LadyStarlight,
12:23:28 09/22/01 Sat
Somebody (Stephen King, Dave Barry, Harlan Ellison???) said "Writing is easy. You just stare
at a blank page until drops of blood form on your forehead."
Haven't had blood yet, but does obsessive playing of Solitaire count?
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[> [> [> [> Re: Writing: 1% inspiration, 9% perspiration, 90% procrastination -- Masq,
18:15:56 09/22/01 Sat
That's what you do when you just can't write another word.
Been there.
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[> [> [> [> "Writing is easy. You just stare at a blank page until drops of blood form
on your forehead." -- d'Herblay, 09:07:45 09/23/01 Sun
A Google search showed that "Gene Fowler" was most often credited with the
quote.
But I've heard the quote before, and I had no idea who the hell "Gene Fowler" was until
he popped up in the search results. So I think that Harlan must have passed it on somewhere. It's
not Dave Barry's style, and I don't read enough Stephen King to be familiar with any quote of his.
(Except for "I have the heart of a small child . . . I keep it in a jar on my desk." Also
attributed to Robert Bloch.)
This is my favorite quote on writer's block from Dave Barry:
. . I'm not one of those holier-than-thou types who go around condemning smoking, drinking and
senseless murder without ever having even tried them. I used to smoke cigarettes, plenty of them,
sometimes two or three at a time when I had Creative Block and was hoping to accidentally set my
office on fire so I could write a column about it.
Sorry for indulging my interest in virulent quotes. It's just that I'm trying to keep this thread alive
until such time as I absolutely, positively must begin my Mayor character post for Thursday's party,
when writing about evolution and Buffy's retaliatory instincts will pass from being a chore into being
itself procrastination.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Writing: 1% inspiration, 9% perspiration, 90% procrastination -- Scout,
09:17:22 09/23/01 Sun
Has to be Freecell for me. I can put off writing anything using the excuse that I have a winning
streak going and breaking off would jinx it. Then, when I finally do lose, I can't stop playing until I
win again, which means a new streak starts.
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[> Re: Retribution -- mundusmundi, 14:30:24 09/22/01 Sat
Thought-provoking article. On the flipside, there are examples of Buffyish calls for action that are
equally compelling.
Fan Sexuality -- Hauptman, 11:07:56
09/21/01 Fri
I was chatting with some of my "norm" friends at work the other day and I let it slip that
I am a huge Buffy/Angel fan and they promptly informed me that I must be gay. They explained to
me that most guys who watch this show are gay and but they didn't have any theories about the
female fans. This was not the first time I had heard such mussing, but I am starting to see a pattern,
that this idea is at least widely accepted or considered. I wondered what the rest of you thought
about this. Am I imagining things, or is this a common cliche? Of course, I don't believe that fans of
the show are any one thing over another. But being gay, yes, my co-workers nailed it, I am perhaps
misisng the coding that straight people are picking up. I just think both shows rock. I don't see the
gayness. Opinions?
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[> I AM NOT GAY!!!!! -- vampire hunter D, 11:19:33 09/21/01 Fri
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[> [> Congratulations, but... -- Hauptman, 11:29:00 09/21/01 Fri
that wasn't the question. Okay, maybe that was in there, too, but I wondered if there this idea that
Buff fans are gay/assumed gay/or are at least open to the lifestyle is widespread. I know it's sensitive
and I apologize if you took my question as an accusation. That said, why are you freaked?
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[> [> [> I never heard that rumor until just now. -- Masq, 11:32:36 09/21/01 Fri
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[> [> [> I'm not gay, but I don't feel the need to shout about it . . . -- d'Herblay, 12:18:36
09/21/01 Fri
In fact, I would think that any show that gives the world Charisma Carpenter, Sarah Michelle
Gellar, Amy Acker, Emma Caulfield, evil Alyson Hannigan, Robia LaMorte, Juliet Landau, Ara Celi
as Ampata and Shondra Farr as a sexbot (am I leaving anyone out? I have a theory that Amber
Benson is a major sex kitten, but it's a theory not shared by the show's wardrobe department), and
that had such a tendency towards short skirts and/or jogging bras as costumery in the early years,
would stand on its own with red-blooded heterosexual men everywhere.
That said, Buffy concerned itself very early with feelings of difference and with the
"outcast" of society. Any show that deals with having a secret life, that you can only
reveal to close friends, and with not being understood for who you are in high school, and with the
fear that you will be discovered for who you are, is going to speak to not just outcasts in general but
gays in particular.
This Salon article, published after the airing of "Hush," when Tara was first introduced,
but before Willow had started exploring their relationship, has some things to say about the
gay/lesbian/bisexual identification with Buffy.
Of course, none of this answers your question, which wasn't "Why would homosexuals identify
with Buffy?" but "Why would heterosexuals identify Buffy with homosexuality?"
But I do think that in a large segment of American society there is an identification of difference
with homosexuality. A show that celebrates freakhood as much as Buffy does is going to be seen as
"different," and what is seen as "different" may come to be seen as
"gay."
Sorry for the run-on sentences. I'm avoiding