September 2001 posts
On the downhill side . . . ? -- Fred, the obvious
pseudonym, 16:47:02 09/25/01 Tue
. . with apologies to Harlan Ellison.
The spoilers, apparently, indicate a relatively mundane (if such can be used in this form)
resurrection of Buffy. (I hope that this is NOT a spoiler, as fans have been awaiting the sure and
certain resurrection ever since they found out a.) that Buffy was up for a certain 2 year run and b.)
that Sarah M. Gellar was going to be in it.
I think, however, that if this IS the case that Whedon & Co. may have missed a bet. They've been
willing to surprise and challenge audiences since season one. I think that they could have done so
again --
-- by letting Buffy be gone. Death counts.
How could they have reconciled this with the continuing episodes and Gellar's return?
Consider this. We know that Dawn is made of Buffy, blood to her blood, or Buffy's sacrifice last
season would have been but vain. Some earlier entries on this site have expressed puzzlement
regarding this -- if Dawn is, essentially, a clone of Buffy why does she look different?
Why indeed? Any supernatural magic that can (and we have suspended disbelief in this regard) fuse
the Key to multiple dimensions in human form AND change all records and numerous human
memories to correspond to this creation -- could easily change one young female's appearance to suit.
(I think certain people would have found it odd to see two Buffies in one town -- although, if the
Robo-Buffy is any guide, it would have taken a while.)
A route Whedon and Co. might have taken is to have Dawn's appearance go to its natural state --
duplex Buffy -- after the Key was invoked and Glory defeated. This would have made a very
interesting field for drama. [It would have been rather hard on Ms. Trachtenberg, but I hope her
service of last season will win her numerous other roles.]
If they had followed this lin they would have a very young woman -- girl, really -- in the body of an
aging Slayer, burned out with battle fatigue. A Dawn/Buffy would have to grapple with the same
stresses our Buffy had had to deal with years ago. In addition, she would have full knowledge of her
own artificiality -- that she was a construct, a copy of her beloved older sister -- and that even that
love was something created. She could nto forget this; she would be reminded every time she looked
in a mirror.
This would be a demanding role -- but S. M. Gellar has already shown the acting chops to portray
very different characters in the same series. She could certainly have done this successfully for
years.
The reaction of the Scooby Gangers would also be fertile ground for drama. Instead of being the loyal
followers of their kick-ass leader, they would have to be the guides and mentors of a fledgling Slayer.
Every time they too looked at her, almost every day, they would recall the leader they had lost.
I'm sure that Whedon & Co. will provide numerous effective stories over the next two years. But,
perhaps, they missed a bet.
Thoughts?
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[> Interesting and clever idea. They wouldn't do it, but it's still a clever idea. -- OnM, 20:28:33
09/25/01 Tue
So, in honor of your eminent non-boringness, let me welcome you to the BtVS Society for the
Perverse and Exceedingly Curious Transformations and/or Re-animating Episodes, or
BtVS/SPECTRE!
(...with apologies to Iam Fleming!)
;)
Computer sounds (WAAYYY O/T) -- Sebastian,
08:47:09 09/26/01 Wed
Does anyone have suggetions to a good website where I can obtain Buffy-related sounds for my
computer?
Specifically, I would like to get the sound vamps make when they are being dusted - but all I've
found so far for sounds are quotes and the like.
Please help.
Thanks - S
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[> Something for Solitude to clarify -- Drizzt, 10:46:36 09/26/01 Wed
Not me. Another option though is to record the sounds you want DIRECTLY from tapes of one of the
shows as digital files, then transfer them to your hardrive.
The recording media and technicalities of file transfer? I do not know.
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[> [> Me? I'm no computer geek. Try OnM or Pgrrl. -- Solitude1056, 11:22:17 09/26/01
Wed
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[> Re: Computer sounds (WAAYYY O/T) -- JoRus, 18:45:14 09/27/01 Thu
No, I don't know of a site with the sound. However, if you're running Windows, and you have a sound
card on your computer...look on the back of your comp. Is there a place where the speakers plug in?
Is there a place marked "mic" or microphone next to the speaker plug in? So...plug in a
mic. Go to your start menu. Look under Programs, accessories, entertainment...ought to be
something that says "sound recording" . You can use that to record sounds to a folder on
your harddrive. Test it first, then capture the sound with a Buffy episode. I hope I'm not being
insulting simplistic here, just trying to help.
Lord of the
Rings trailer -- spotjon, 08:29:45 09/26/01 Wed
Okay, I have to confess that I was more interested in watching the new LOTR trailer than the Angel
premiere. I am so very much looking forward to these movies, but I'm really hoping that they don't
mess around with the story too much. Who else here has read the trilogy, or anything else by
Tolkien? The Hobbit is a nice prelude to the trilogy, though it doesn't come close to the trilogy's
magnitude. No other fantasy books that I have read come even close to Tolkien's books, and I'm not
sure that any others can. The one thing in the movies I'm hesitant about is Arwen's apparently
expanded role. They had better not change her character into Xena Warrior Princess, or I'll be
seriously ticked at Peter Jackson. :-)
Can... not... wait... for... this... movie....
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[> Re: Lord of the Rings trailer -- Voxpopuli, 09:19:33 09/26/01 Wed
I read the Hobbit, the Lord of The Rings (trilogy), and the Silmarillion, and I agree with you: I can
not wait to see this movie. But this time, I am avoiding traillers, pictures, everything that could spoil
the surprise of the first movie, as much as I can. I guess I already have those characters in my mind,
how they should look like, and all that stuff, and I do not want to start watching the movie already
suspecting it is not gonna ne good because I do not like part of the cast,... But if the movie fails my
expectations... I'll watch the next two parts anyway.
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[> Re: Lord of the Rings trailer -- Shaglio, 09:50:32 09/26/01 Wed
I never read the Hobbit or the Lord Of THe Rings series, but my friend has and he said it was
dificult to read because of his writing style. I personnaly have never read anything better than the
Wheel Of Time series by Robert Jordan. My friend has read both and her thinks that WOT is much
better then LOTR. I'm still dying to see the movie though. I remember watching the Hobbit cartoon
as a kid and I'll never forget "Where there's a whip, there's a way." That song is
awesome.
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[> [> WOT vs. LOTR -- spotjon, 10:49:02 09/26/01 Wed
Personally, I don't think that the Wheel of Time series even comes close to the Lord of the Rings. The
WOT books are easier reading, to be sure, but there isn't anything particularly original in the series.
Not that everything needs to be original, but I don't think that Robert Jordan has really planned out
his series very well. The first three books were awesome, IMO, but the series quickly went downhill
from there, degenerating into numerous drawn-out and pointless plotlines. I can't help but think
that Jordan is purposely making the series longer in order to make more money, and the story is
suffering as a result. I also don't care for the women in the series, as they all seem to be clones of one
another, personality-wise. The women are all petty, self-serving, back-biting, proud and mean. I can't
understand why Jordan would create a fantasy world with only women like that.
I like Tolkien's characters much more, because they actually believe in doing whatever it takes to
defeat evil while remaining in the good. Jordan's books have a hazy spiritualism where there is no
right or wrong, only a vague "cosmic balance" between the light and the dark. He doesn't
know how to write a character with any real sense of morality at all. I've been reading all the WOT
books up until the last one, but I don't think I'm going to bother anymore. The writing and plots no
longer interest me, and the sense of urgency seems to have vanished from the story.
If you want an easy-reading introduction to Tolkien's works, pick up the graphic novel adaptation of
The Hobbit. You should be able to find it at any Border's, in the huge "Tolkien" section of
the store. :-)
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[> [> Jordan vs. Tolkein - I second spotjon's commentary -- Solitude1056, 19:21:07 09/26/01
Wed
I've read both - all 3 of the Tolkein trilogy, and the first 3 of Jordan's. Yeah, Tolkein's harder to read.
He makes you think, and he doesn't give you the characters right away - there's several characters
that you may dislike at first, but like Iago, you don't know why they're doing what they're doing...
you just come to trust, along with the hobbits, that it's okay despite that not-knowing.
Jordan's easier to read. He's not original. He's not even remotely original. He's got a standard plot
line, but with some promising characters. But his story doesn't develop - it just gets more complex.
That's the grade-B form of "development," IMO. At some point a writer does need to
wrap the story up, or it just turns into an endless soap opera. Sure, it's entertaining, in some vague
way, like eye candy and grade-B movies are. But it's not something that a year later I'm saying,
"gee, I wanna re-read that one."
Tolkein, on the other hand, has not only a beginning, middle and end - but a fully fleshed-out,
complex and completely developed world around his characters. That's what really drives his story -
the mythology within which the characters evolve. And they do evolve, and not always in ways we'd
like, and not always sympathetically. Good folks go bad, and bad do good, and nothing is ever quite
what it seems - right on down to Gollum, one of the little bads from The Hobbit.
Speaking of which, I'd never had my heart break from reading a story until I was reading Tolkein. In
the third book, I believe it is, Sam Gamgee stays awake to keep an eye on Gollum, who still wants to
get the ring from Frodo. It's then, as they lay so close to Mt. Doom and the end of the line, that Sam
sets aside his natural distrust and dislike of Gollum, and really looks at him. And Sam is finally able
to see, inside of Gollum, that there's still a hobbit in there, however twisted Gollum was by having
the ring all those years. It's the recognition of Gollum's humanity, despite the ring's addiction
twisting him, that's a truly heart-breaking part of the story. But Tolkein doesn't give that part to you
on a silver platter, but it's there in the whole story, Gollum's humanity, that is - you have to work for
it, though.
Tolkein makes you think. And he makes you remember, years later, passages and quotes and
characters - even minor characters like Treebeard. I doubt, in fifty years, that many writers
publishing these days will be able to claim that sort of fame.
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[> [> [> Re: Jordan vs. Tolkein - I second spotjon's commentary -- Shaglio, 06:34:09 09/27/01
Thu
"He's not original. He's not even remotely original."
His world is quite original, though. Any fantasy story can have dragons, elves, dwarves, orcs, ogres,
etc. But Jordan created his own races and monsters that are unique: Ogier, Nym, Trollocs, Myrdraal,
Dragkhar, Grolm, and so on. Plus his "One Power" is much diferent than standard
storybook magic. His world is very complex and thought out in it's history and culture. Sure he
borrowed little bits from diferent real-life historical societies, but he mixed and matched them to
create whole new cultures. And I know Artur Pendrag Tanreal sounds a lot like Arthur Paendrag,
but the character isn't nearly the same as King Arthur.
There comes a point in time where virtually everything anyone can imagine has already been
written about, so every work written thereafter will remind you of something someone else already
wrote. More and more writers generateing more and more stories make it harder for those who come
later to be perfectly original.
With that said, as soon as I'm finished rereading Good Omens (my copy has "the Nice and
Accurate Prophecies of Agnus Nutter, Witch" on the front cover), I'll take a crack at The Lord
of the Rings series. Should I read the Hobbit first? Sorry everyone for straying so far away from
Buffy.
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[> [> [> [> Jordan's world, and The Hobbit -- spotjon, 07:07:58 09/27/01 Thu
His world is quite original, though.
I agree that Jordan put a lot of work into creating fairly original creatures and otherworldly powers,
but he has largely misused them. The trollocs which were so frightening in the first book now are
hardly given a second glance. The same with the Myrdraal and other monsters. Jordan focused too
much on non-essential characters, and has dragged out the series to a ridiculous degree. I should
have known something was wrong when the hero of the series killed the same bad guy at the end of
each of the first three books! And now we find out that that bad guy wasn't really the bad guy after
all, and it just gets longer and more tedious after that. He seems to think that just because he
created this huge and complex world, that he is obligated to explore every nick and cranny of it
before he can end the series. I don't think that the great ending we keep hearing about is worth
trudging through these books anymore. I have been holding on, expecting the series to get better, but
I no longer think it can recapture the promise it started out with. It's a real pity.
In regards to reading the trilogy, it might not be a bad idea to start with The Hobbit, as it sets up the
storyline and a few of the characters for the LOTR trilogy. It's not totally necessary, though, and the
tone of the book is different than that of the trilogy. The Hobbit was written more with a fun
adventure feeling as opposed to the enormous heroic scope which is found in the trilogy. The Hobbit
has more the feel of a children's story than the later books, with the little moral insights that Tolkien
throws in at times. However, everything important to the plot is explained in the first book of the
trilogy, so you wouldn't be missing out on the essential bits of knowledge if you go straight to the
trilogy. I guess it all depends on whether or not you think you can finish up through the first book of
the trilogy before the movie comes out.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Jordan's world, and The Hobbit -- Shaglio, 08:51:49 09/27/01
Thu
"The trollocs which were so frightening in the first book now are hardly given a second
glance."
Yes, but by the same token I was watching the reruns of the 1st season of Buffy the last couple days
and it seemed that she was absolutely terrified by a couple vampires. She killed a few, but she ran
away from a lot of them (including Jesse). Now, 5 years later, she thinks nothing of dusting half a
dozen to a dozen vamps in a nights work. They hardly appear as menacing as they did in WttH and
The Harvest. As Buffy gets stronger, her old adversaries don't seem as dangerous and new ones must
be brought in (notice she didn't hunt many vamps last season). Likewise, as Rand, Mat, and Perrin
get stronger, their old adversares aren't as overwhelming and new foes need to come into the
picture.
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[> [> [> [> Re: Jordan vs. Tolkein - I second spotjon's commentary -- Andy, 13:18:31
09/27/01 Thu
"With that said, as soon as I'm finished rereading Good Omens (my copy has "the Nice
and Accurate Prophecies of Agnus Nutter, Witch" on the front cover),"
Ooh, great book :)
"I'll take a crack at The Lord of the Rings series. Should I read the Hobbit first?"
I think it's okay to read The Hobbit first so long as you keep in mind that the tone of the story really
doesn't represent what you get in Lord of the Rings, especially after the first half of Fellowship of the
Ring. The Hobbit was intended to be a children's book, so it's a lot goofier. When Tolkien started on
LOTR, he kept up a lot of that children's angle in the first book until he decided he had bigger plans
in mind and from that point forward the book got darker and more mythic in tone. I only point this
out because I've known people who have sworn off LOTR because they started reading The Hobbit,
disliked it, and figured LOTR was the same thing.
Andy
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[> [> [> [> Hey, Shag! O/T -- WW, 17:13:51 09/28/01 Fri
I'm just reading Good Omens for the first time, and loving it!
BTW, did you catch the other Arthurian references in WoT? We made a list years ago:
Rand al'Thor = Arthur Nynaeve = Ninian Thom Merrilin = Merlin Moiraine = Morgan le Fay
Egwene al'Vere = Guinivere
I know there are tons of others that I've forgotten (I read the last book almost a year ago now) but
the point is that even though Jordan uses the obvious parallels in names, the characters themselves
don't share the same destinies this time around the turn of the Wheel--for instance, I'd be
exceedingly surprised at this point if Rand ended up with Egwene, as Arthur did with
Guinivere.
I've enjoyed WoT, but I do think it's about time Jordan ended it. I should go and read the rest of this
thread now, before I get redundant... ;o)
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: Hey, Shag! O/T -- Shaglio, 07:47:37 10/01/01 Mon
My friends and I caught some of those references, but not all. It's been a while since we all read
"La Morte De Artur" in high school. I agree that he should be wrapping it up soon (before
I go crazy). I need closure on some of the story lines, and he just keeps adding new lines. I know he
said that not all plot lines will be resolved at the end of the series :(
I wish the series would go 10 books, but I have a feeling it'll go 12 since all the major book ending
have been every third book (The Dragon Reborn, The Lord of Chaos, and Winter's Heart). So it
makes sense that Tarmon Gaidon will be at the end of book 12.
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[> Re: Lord of the Rings trailer -- Talia, 10:23:49 09/26/01 Wed
The trailer was, in my opinion at least, jaw-droppingly awesome. Waiting for this movie is killing me
already. The books are wonderful, and the footage I've seen looks like it lives up to them in every
way (the whole thing could yet be crap, but my expectations are rising despite my best efforts). I for
one am glad they expanded Arwen's role. Tolkien didn't write especially good female characters. The
important female characters in the LotR are: Galadriel, powerful but doesn't get to do all that much
other than sit in the woods and look pretty; Eowyn, who kicks the dark power's butt but then settles
down to a nice quiet married life like a good little girl; and Arwen, who does absolutely nothing
except love Aragorn and sit around and look pretty. Within limits, expansion of the female
characters will bring the books up to date without undermining their essence. Anyway, enough of the
feminist mini-rant. Go see the movie, people. Support them for supporting Angel with the
advertising dollars. Frodo lives! Buffy lives! And they all lived happily ever after (but not together.)
(SMG is short but not that short) ~Talia the sleep-deprived~
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[> Re: I should like this ... -- Dedalus, 11:14:34 09/26/01 Wed
Rowan should be coming up shortly.
Anyway, I should like LOTR, but I don't. And granted, I'm in a 1% minority here, but I just can't get
into it. After hearing many protests, I've tried to read the books. So far, I haven't even made it
through the first one. I've tried. I swear I've tried. But you know, last time, I got through the first
hundred pages, and nothing had happened. All the hobbits do is walk and stop and eat and eat and
then eat some more. I can't trust a book where nothing happens for a hundred pages. I know some of
it is boring exposition, but I LIKE boring exposition. But you know, page after page about the life
cycles of hobbits, map after map, and nothing happens.
My LOTR as a kid was the Chronicles of Narnia. CS Lewis made Narnia a real place. Tolkien did not
do that with Middle Earth, at least as far as I'm concerned. Rather than listening to a story, it's like
I'm listening to someone listening to a story. I'm like Joss ... I like emotional storytelling, the things I
like are things of the heart. I even made it through the Hobbit as a kid, but remained quite
unimpressed. The action seemed so distant and methodical. It was very hard to get emotionally
wound up in.
Granted, I should like it, because I like this sort of thing, but I don't. The trailer looks cool, and I'll go
see the movie, but unlike virtually everyone else, I hope it veers wildly from the books. Part of my
urk is the bloated sense of Tolkienism sweeping the land. I was in a comic book store a few weeks
ago, and someone was mentioning that he evented fantasy literature. Um ... no. I'm thinking not.
Actually, he got most of his stuff from all that tenth century literature he use to teach. If they were
doing a Beowulf movie, then I would be more excited.
Actually, if I may make a suggestion, Buffy fans should check out Terry Brooks. Especially the
award-winning Word and Void trilogy, beginning with Running with the Demon and ending with
Angel Fire East. Very Buffy-ish. And it gets to you, completely emotionally involves you. The best
fantasy trilogy I have ever read. Nice theological overtones, too.
As far as the movie goes, it's clearly setting itself up for a fall. Especially with the internet culture
that thrives on tearing everything to pieces. Which is not to say it will actually be bad ... it's just
saying that a lot of people will take great pleasure and go to great pains in convincing people that it
is bad. This is like Star Wars, only worse, because there's already a clearly established, borderline
sacred book that it is built on. Any deviation will find backlash, and by necessity, the deviations will
have to be there. A movie is not a book. GWTW was a huge success, but it veered wildly from the
book. Its only saving grace was that there was no internet back then.
Still, I'm sure it will do okay critically, and it will be a huge box office smash. And like I said, I'll
probably check it out myself, but I'm just not too excited.
:-)
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[> [> Beowulf -- Ryuei, 12:34:48 09/26/01 Wed
Actually there was a movie (that I think went straight to video) called Beowulf starring Christopher
Lambert that came out a year or two ago. I personally thought it was a fun movie. It has a neat post-
Apacolypse take on the original story.
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[> [> [> then may I suggest "Riddley Walker" ... -- Solitude1056, 20:48:41
09/26/01 Wed
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[> [> GWTW movie =/= book? Where? -- Solitude1056, 20:47:30 09/26/01 Wed
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[> [> [> Re: GWTW movie =/= book? Where? (O/T) -- Cassandra, 00:06:55 09/27/01 Thu
There are several differences. Scarlett has more than one child in the book, but only one in the
movie. Scarlett's brother-in-law is an interesting character, but I don't remember him being in the
movie at all.
Small enough changes plot-wise, but there was a noticeable difference in the characterization. The
Scarlett of the movie is less complex and more petulant. She's a stronger, more self-sufficient, more
developed character in the book. Both book and movie were exceptionally well done, but, IMO, the
book is better.
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[> Re: Lord of the Rings trailer -- Rattletrap, 11:43:49 09/26/01 Wed
Got to agree, LOTR is fabulous and the movie looks to be as well done as one could expect from
Hollywood. I'm already partly gritting my teeth because I know it won't work as well as the book did-
-partly because they are trying to condense 6 weeks of reading into 6 hours. Nonetheless, it promises
to be a great series of movies, and I'm psyched about the special effects.
I'm always struck by the similarities between Whedon and Tolkien. Both are great
"subcreators" who have developed these elaborate and functional, if fictional, worlds in
which their characters exist. TV doesn't really permit the close attention to detail that Tolkein
demonstrated in LOTR--I don't see any languages in the Buffyverse as developed as Tolkien's elvish
tounge (complete with regional dialects and everything); or the same attention to history, geography,
and culture. At the same time, Whedon, IMO, shows a much better aptitude for developing his
characters emotionally and mentally over time.
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[> Re: Lord of the Rings trailer -- mundusmundi, 13:30:07 09/26/01 Wed
Looking forward to the flick. And, for any fanatics out there, the Marquette University archives
(Milwaukee, Wis.) has a Tolkien collection, complete with rough drafts, original sketches, etc., of his
entire oeuvre. Got to work on it summer of '96 (along with Joseph McCarthy's personal writings --
MU's most notorious law school alumnus -- which were, um, considerably different but still most
interesting).
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[> [> here's a link -- mm, 15:14:49 09/26/01 Wed
to the Tolkien Collection, if anyone's interested.
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[> Re: Lord of the Rings trailer -- Jen C., 17:56:14 09/26/01 Wed
I read them all -- several times. The Silmarillion sometimes gave me a headache, but it was worth it
since it gave great background on the elves and the history of the rings. The movie looks great! The
mines of Moria look awesome and I can't wait for the Balrog! I'm so excited...I plan on seeing it one
time for every year that I've been waiting for it to come out....(I'm embarrassed to say how many
times that is)
By the By, did anyone see the Ralph Bakshi version? I really liked it - though I understand that it
didn't appeal to everyone.
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[> Re: Lord of the Rings trailer -- Andy, 19:13:21 09/26/01 Wed
I read The Hobbit and LOTR for the first time a couple of years ago. Loved them both. So much so, in
fact, that it pretty much made most other fantasy books I'd read immediately irrelevant. That is, I'm
sure there are plenty of fantasy stories out there that are original or drawn from a different tradition
than what Tolkien was inspired by and those are fine, but I just can't imagine bothering with any of
those "party of adventurers goes off on a dangerous quest with little world maps and glossaries
in the front of the book" stories now. Tolkien was so thorough when he did it that I simply
don't need anything more in that particular niche :)
I'm really looking forward to the films because I think Peter Jackson's an extremely talented
filmmaker (come to think of it, The Frighteners is kind of like a Buffy episode except without Buffy
in it...), and it's downright scary how exactly the images from the film so far match what was in my
imagination when I read the books.
As for Arwen's expanded role, I'm in favor of it. My only concern is that I don't want to see Arwen
elevated into being such an asskicker that it somehow diminishes Eowyn's role in the story. If Arwen
is supposed to be great, then Eowyn should be that much greater :)
Andy
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[> [> The funny thing is... -- Solitude1056, 20:52:49 09/26/01 Wed
I can't remember any of the female characters (other than Galadriel) in Tolkein's stories. Huh, nor in
C.S. Lewis' stories, either, but I was never too big on C.S. Lewis once I got tired of getting hit over
the head with his Xtian bias. Great stories, but enough with the imagery. (Tolkein's is at least a bit
more subtle.) Now, L'Engle, on the other hand - great female characters, like Meg. That's modern
fantasy for me. No maps, but yes to the odd fellow group banding together to save something. And
with math 'n science to boot, even if I never did figure out what a tesseract was...
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[> [> [> A tesseract... -- spotjon, 06:26:20 09/27/01 Thu
..is the fifth dimension, of course! :-) I never understood it either, so I just took it on faith that it
made some sort of sense. Man, it's been years since I read that book. I need to try to find a copy of it
somewhere.
In regards to Lewis' Christian bias in his stories, I remember reading that he and Tolkien had long
arguments about the use of allegory in writing. Tolkien disliked Lewis' blatant Christian symbolism,
feeling that it was overbearing and lacked subtlety. Tolkien's works were greatly influenced by his
Christian faith, but he refrained from making his writings into sermons. (Much to his credit, I
believe, though I am a huge Lewis fan.)
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[> [> [> [> Re: A tesseract... -- Shaglio, 06:51:57 09/27/01 Thu
. . is a rhombus shaped house (instead of the normal square or rectanglar shape). It makes for some
pretty awkward furniture arrangements in the four corners of the house. The obtuse angles aren't
too bad, but the acute ones can get a little cozy and cramped. You need to do a lot more kitty-
cornering in them.
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[> [> [> [> [> kitty-cornering. hmm. sounds obscene. -- Solitude1056, 14:36:02
09/29/01 Sat
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[> [> [> [> Re: A tesseract... -- Rattletrap, 07:04:29 09/27/01 Thu
Tolkien and Lewis, despite being extremely close friends, had long arguments about a number of
things. Tolkien never particularly liked the Narnia stories because of their lack of development and
internal consistency (at least compared to Middle Earth). At the same time, I've read in at least one
place where Tolkien claimed LOTR was written to shut CS Lewis up--he kept going on about how
Tolkien had created this great world and needed to tell some stories with it, finally Tolkien got fed
up with it and wrote LOTR. This is probably exaggerated, but not without its grain of truth. For the
interested, C S Lewis reviewed LOTR shortly after it came out, and his reviews are published in the
compilation of essays On Stories along with a number of other writings on Science Fiction and
Fantasy literature. If you can find a copy, I highly recommend it.
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[> [> [> [> [> CS Lewis Screwtape -- Cleanthes, 09:37:25 09/27/01 Thu
On a tangental note, anyone who likes both this posting board and the Narnia books will ADORE
Lewis's book, "The Screwtape Letters".
The book is not an allegorical tale, but rather a flat-out devil's advocate exposition of the nature of
evil. Screwtape himself is, well, a devil. My edition has a great forward with citations to Boethius
and others. And, as a bonus, only 172 pages. I wanted more! I sometimes wish I had an uncle
Screwtape myself - or at least I do when I'm feeling especially nihilistic or postmodern...
Tolkein's specialty was philology & medieval literature. Lewis was a philosopher and theologian. I
first read both the Narnia books and Lewis when I was an atheist, but even then, I didn't find the
theology threatening.
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[> [> [> Re: The funny thing is... -- rowan, 08:34:39 09/27/01 Thu
I found the female characters in the Silmarillion to be more memorable than in LOTR, but I do grant
that Tolkien was more comfortable and capable writing men. Women seem to function more as
archetypes and symbols rather than full people for him....
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[> [> [> Bias -- Malandanza, 09:59:03 09/27/01 Thu
"but I was never too big on C.S. Lewis once I got tired of getting hit over the head with his
[Chris]tian bias."
Complaining about Lewis' Christian bias is a bit like not reading Lovecraft because you don't like the
oppressive atmosphere of horror in his books, or not reading Austin because all her books talk about
the relationship between love/marriage/money/social status (don't flame me -- I love JA). I mean, you
knew what was in the books before you began reading them -- so why complain? :) Now, if you want
to see excessive use of Christian imagery, try Pilgrim's Progress -- not only are you hit repeatedly
over the head with the imagery, but (just in case you don't get the point) they also explain in detail
just exactly what the images meant (which, actually, is helpful if you are not a biblical scholar --
some of the allusions were a bit obscure).
Seriously, though, I agree with Cleanthes about the Screwtape Letters -- I recently came across this
book and it has one of the more interesting portrayals of demons I have read. Certainly worth
reading -- even if you are an atheist (just as Dante's Inferno is worth reading even if you don't
believe in Medieval Catholic lore).
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[> [> [> [> Re: Bias -- rowan, 10:56:08 09/28/01 Fri
Yes...if the writing is good & thought-provoking, who cares about the bias?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Except... -- Malandanza, 09:58:11 09/30/01 Sun
"Yes...if the writing is good & thought-provoking, who cares about the bias?"
.it does annoy me when something that purports to be a dispassionate observation turns out to be
hiding an agenda. "Documentaries" that are seriously biased, biographies written by
family apologists, etc. But when people complained about being offended after seeing movies likt The
Last Temptation of Christ, I have little sympathy -- they knew that the movie would offend them
before they set foot inside the theater.
Angel and grief --
celticross, 09:11:48 09/26/01 Wed
Reading posts, I've been surprised by the number of people who have expressed displeasure over the
way Angel's grief was handled in Heartthrob. Frankly, I liked it. I thought it was tasteful to avoid a
scene of Angel sobbing on Cordy's shoulder. I think what threw a lot of people was Cordy's line about
James and Elizabeth's "forever love"...just because you're with someone for a long time
doesn't necessarily mean the emotions involved are healthy. I've also sensed a bit of a double
standard...people were expecting Angel to completely break down, apparently. What do you think
Buffy's reaction would have been if she'd gotten word Angel was dead? I suppose I get a bit miffed at
the suggestion that it's ok for her to move on with her life, but Angel needs to stay in love with Buffy
forever. That's one of the things that made me want to reach through the screen and smack Buffy
during Sanctuary.
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[> Re: Angel and grief -- Drizzt, 10:58:08 09/26/01 Wed
Buffy and Angel will love eachother forever, but they are no longer in love.
Buffy in the afterlife would be really pissed if Angel got all mopy and suicidle about her death! I can
see Buffy and Angel in Heavan: Punch! Slam! Bang! and Buffy says "Angel, you killed yourself
because you were upset by my death?!?" She would agree with Cordelia that Buffy would want
him to move on and honor her by doing good and being good.(big paraphrase there)
One other thing is that Angel allways accepted that Buffy was the Slayer and would therefore die
young. He never had any illusions of her living to be an old woman. So with this in mind it would be
inconsistent for Angel to be TOO suprised by her death. Like Buffy, Angel accepted-without liking-
that Buffy would die young.
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[> [> Re: Angel and grief -- The Godfather, 11:02:57 09/26/01 Wed
Well the script for FOREVER differs with you on whether or not they are still in love with each
other. Angel said, "The woman I love." Present tense. That is hardly the point.
The point is you are right, Angel proved his love to Buffy more by continuing the fight in her name.
This is a man who has never really dealt with the grief of losing someone so deep and beloved, so
integrated into his soul. He dind't know how he was supposed to react. He didn't realize how well she
had taught him. She taught him to keep fighting as long as he could because there's always
something worth fighting for. He couldn't let down because of that- he just didn't realize it.
Buffy would never have wanted Angel to crawl up and die. That would have been the worst disgrace
of all and disrespectful to everything she is to him. In his actions now, he proves the utter depth of
his love and he shows that even in loss, he can be a warrior.
-Shawn
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[> [> [> Re: Angel and grief -- Drizzt, 11:13:16 09/26/01 Wed
Thanks! You explained it better:) RE Angel dealing with his greif.
I agree that the love between Buffy and Angel is very deep and strong. Also agreed that their love is
inherently romantic.
They love eachother more than most people could understand, however they have moved on and are
no longer in the phase of "you are my world" of the first phases of being in love. They
have the real thing that lasts beyond a crush or a phase, but they HAVE moved on...in a bittersweat
way.
One thing to add: neither has ever been in love with anyone else...
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[> [> [> [> Re: Angel and grief -- The Godfather, 11:54:11 09/26/01 Wed
I concur completely with this.
They are in a more adult and accepting phase of their love. They are comforted from afar by the
simple concept of it being better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.
I believe they will reunite come series end but even should they not, I believe they will reunite as
friends. They have something no one else will ever be able to touch. They will always be each others'
most important and strongest love.
But they are becoming adults and sadly that means accepting that in all reality, they are likely
over(this being a fantasy show, I believe reality will step out for them) so they must carry on and
move on.
And in doing so, accepting that they may never again be, have strengthened their bond more than
will ever realize.
I like the story being told. I don't like the idea of Angel with a new romance because it seems
contrary to his character and honestly he has nothing to offer someone while he is on his quest but
should he..I have always believed it should be an older character not a young girl..
JMO, Shawn
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[> [> [> [> [> Remember, it -has- been three months since Buffy died... --
Lucifer_Sponge, 13:46:10 09/26/01 Wed
What we have to remember, too, is that it's been three months. Angel's had three whole months to
deal with this. It's not that he's -ok- with Buffy's death, he's just moved on from moping and crying
about it. He's had sufficient time to grieve, and now its time for him to start getting on with his
life.
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[> [> [> Re: Angel and grief -- Kerri, 14:12:01 09/26/01 Wed
You said it! Angel is honoring Buffy in continuing to fight-that's what she would have wanted. Their
souls are intertwined forever, and IMO they are and will always be soulmates. I was a bit
disappointed and putoff by Angel's lack of grief. We saw Angel not wearing his usual black-he wore
khaki-and I guess to me there just seemed something a bit wrong. I just hope Cordy and Angel don't
get involved as rumors have mentioned-I'd really have a problem with that.
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[> [> [> [> That came out a little wrong -- Kerri, 14:31:20 09/26/01 Wed
"I was a bit disappointed and putoff by Angel's lack of grief. "
I really wasn't suggesting that Angel never hurt over Buffy's death. I'm sure he did. He went off to
grieve alone. And alone is the way you'd expect Angel to grieve-he tends to be a private person and
rarely even opened up to Buffy-I always just got the idea that they understood each other. I think
that the feeling of being part of each other is why Angel can go on. He and Buffy are forever
intertwined, as he told Buffy in The Zeppo, "I love you. Nothing can change that, not even
death." I wanted him to seem just a bit more devestated-that's all.
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[> [> [> [> [> Angel's grief -- Simplicity, 14:52:53 09/26/01 Wed
I think the point of Heartthrob was that Angel loved Buffy but he's not in love with her. They have
been seperated since mid season three (if you discount the biting going on in Graduation Day 1). It's
been three and a half years and his wounds have healed a little. His grief isn't fresh either, he has
had three months to deal with it. If he was still prostrate with grief, we'd be worried about the
guy.
I also think that Angel began putting emotional distance between himself and Buffy after he saw her
with Riley. He knew that she was moving on. I think he wanted to move on in his own way too.
Also, Angel knows that she's a Slayer, as Buffy said there is an "expiration date" on the
package. I think that subconsciously he has prepared himself for that for years. When he walked into
the hotel he saw Willow and he knew. It was if he had been expecting it.
Cordelia summed it up by saying that he was "honoring her" by continuing to fight the
good fight. I don't believe Buffy would want him to grieve too much, she'd want him to get back out
there and help people.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Angel's grief -- The Godfather, 15:50:22 09/26/01 Wed
But what about FOREVER..both his actions and the script clearly indicated that he was and is still
in love with her. And he still references her in the present tense when he said, "The woman I
love is dead."
I don't mean to harp here but I'm not a fan of ambiguity. I feel like the B/Aers are being pulled along
for the ride and never allowed to jump off because the writers want them to stick around in case they
are needed. Thus screw them most of the time but dangle some candy on occasion to keep them
watching..
-Shawn
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: Angel's grief -- celticross, 20:17:28 09/26/01 Wed
" I feel like the B/Aers are being pulled along for the ride and never allowed to jump off because
the writers want them to stick around in case they are needed. Thus screw them most of the time but
dangle some candy on occasion to keep them watching.."
Exactly! Which is why I kinda jumped off the B/A shipper wagon in Season 1 of AtS, with IWRY. I
felt like I was being thrown a bone for being a good little shipper...and hence felt a little cheap. And
Forever didn't help much, with the one lovey scene, which happened to fall in the middle of Angel's
"Dark Arc" and really hurt the credibility of it all.
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: When bad things happen to good vampires -- mundusmundi,
14:57:56 09/26/01 Wed
The actor Michael Caine once talked about how he got the idea underplaying a tragic scene by
watching on TV the reactions of the families of the astronauts who perished in the '86 Challenger
explosion. They didn't overemote, or at least not before the cameras; rather, they looked numbed by
the experience. Same with some of the family members of the recent tragedy, e.g., Ted Olson,
husband of Barbara Olson, who was on the plane that hit the Pentagon. I'm sure he probably cried
his eyes out in private, but I was amazed at how composed he was on TV. I thought Angel's reaction
was similarly, effectively muted. I didn't take it to mean he was less mournful than say Spike was,
just that different people (or vampires) can express their grief in different ways.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> "If I felt less, I could speak more" - Mr Darcy in P&P --
Rahael, 15:56:19 09/26/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Not Mister Darcy and not P & P - it was the chap that Emma
ends up marrying in Emma -- Helen, 02:45:07 09/27/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> But entirely agree in regard to Angel ... -- Helen,
02:53:30 09/27/01 Thu
and will stop trying to be such a smart arse.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> [> [> Quite right! *Hangs head in shame* -- Rahael, 15:27:01
09/27/01 Thu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> Re: When bad things happen to good vampires -- Rufus, 08:42:49
09/27/01 Thu
People react to grief differently. Some become vocal, act out in an obvious way, and some internalize
their emotions. Just because someone isn't grieving in a way that is most recognizable as grief,
doesn't mean they don't feel any pain, it just isn't obvious to the average person. Cordy and the rest
of the gang knew that Angel had been greatly affected by the death of Buffy. But when the season
started we must remember that it had been three months since he first found out. Also look to Buffys
final words about loving her friends and to "live-live for me", how would becoming
imobilized indefinately be living and carrying on the fight that was so important to Buffy. Angel had
time to get over the relationship, time to grieve....just because after 3 months he seemed to be
recovering from the worst of it doesn't mean that Buffys death meant nothing to him.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Angel and grief -- The Godfather, 14:50:56 09/26/01 Wed
Cord and Angel would put me off the show permanently so I hope they don't go that way. I love the
family vibe on the show and would hate to see that compromised so cheaply.
-Shawn
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> In Joss I trust, I'm reserving my judgement -- Ally, 14:55:53 09/26/01
Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Angel and grief -- Joann, 17:38:35 09/26/01 Wed
I didn't expect Angel to fall on the floor and thrash himself against the wall because Buffy died. I just
was hoping for a David Greenwalt moment. Something I could always remember since I won't be
seeing any B/A moments anytime soon except on reruns.
He could have been alone for a few moments, looked at some momentos, made an expression of grief
that we would recognize as deeply personal and then came out to Cordy beating her breast --
"Hey, here I am. I'll help you. Just listen to me." Right. Now I am all fine and better, he
said! It was a forced recovery.
If you're
"archiving" episodes from FX -- Humanitas, 14:05:49 09/26/01 Wed
I'd advise taping the 4:00 show, instead of the 7:00. They don't have all the annoying
"bugs" for shows later that evening, you get full-screen credits, and I even think the
earlier showing is un-edited. At least, "WttH" maps perfectly to the transcript on
Psyche's site.
I have way too much time on my hands, don't I?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: If you're "archiving" episodes from FX -- Kerri, 14:14:07 09/26/01 Wed
"At least, "WttH" maps perfectly to the transcript on Psyche's site."
Do you know that the 7:00 show was edited? I didn't notice any ovious problems.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: If you're "archiving" episodes from FX -- Humanitas, 15:47:28 09/26/01
Wed
I didn't compare the 7:00 show directly, but the transitions seemed a little abrupt to me, maybe
because I was expecting syndicated butchery.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: If you're "archiving" episodes from FX -- Tanker, 16:07:42 09/26/01
Wed
I had the transcript up for the 7:00 show (I have too much time on my hands too). No cuts, and yes,
the cut to commercials was abrupt. They might have saved enough seconds for another promo,
maybe.
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[> [> [> [> Re: If you're "archiving" episodes from FX -- Humanitas, 17:51:01
09/26/01 Wed
Interesting. We've been hearing so many rumors about additional edits, that we're all jumpy. Nice to
know that the rumors seem to be greatly exagerated. :)
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: If you're "archiving" episodes from FX -- Cynthia,
18:34:31 09/26/01 Wed
Alas, no cable, no FX. But I just read in the tv guide that Fox, channel 5 will have Buffy on
Saturday's at 6:00 pm and UPN channel 9 will have the same? episode on Sunday at 8:00pm puting
it up against the primetime viewing schedule.
I should tell you that here in NYC, that channel 5 owners, who own the Fox syndication station
brought, with special permission from the Fed, channel 9 which is a UPN channel. So Fox gets Buffy
because its parent company owns it, and UPN gets it because they have a deal with Fox. Strange but
true.
So, while some of the board will be finished with season one in about three weeks, I'll still be look at
it (fussy image and all) for three months. Talk about confusion with timelines LOL.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> [> eight days a week -- 32207, 08:21:41 09/28/01 Fri
Yep, down here, our WB affiliate will be showing the syndicated weekend Buffy's starting with WttH
and the 3rd season, Anne, on Saturday and Sunday @ 6pm respectively. Now with FX schedule and
UPN's season 6, we have a serious load of distractions from your schoolwork (productive time after
work and what not). So much for Med School, hello white collar middle management.....
(grumble)
-Spiff
Confirmation of Buffy Premiere *Spoiler*? --
Wisewoman, 17:52:05 09/26/01 Wed
Deeva has posted some links to spoilers below which seem to support a script fragment we discussed
a couple of months ago. I posted the supposed shooting script fragment on my site at that time and
then forgot about it, but now that it looks like it might be authentic, I'll post the url again:
http://www.wisewomansway.homestead.com/buffyspoiler.html
Warning: For serious spoiler ho's only... ;o)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> From a fellow spoiler whore... -- Kerri, 19:33:12 09/26/01 Wed
Last season I told myself I wouldn't read anymore wildfeeds, etc.-but who was I kidding?
Appanrently some lucky folks have seen the episode and reviewed it(there is a full synopsis at
www.bloodyawfulpoet.com) and it seems to pretty much confirm your script. 6 days! yay!
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[> [> Re: From a fellow spoiler whore... -- Dariel, 21:40:35 09/26/01 Wed
You guys are terrible! I'm just going to pretend I didn't see those links. Well, until tomorrow when I
just can't stand it anymore!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Tomorrow? You've got some awesome will power there. ;o) -- Deeva, 21:50:29
09/26/01 Wed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: Tomorrow? You've got some awesome will power there. ;o) -- Dariel,
20:41:46 09/27/01 Thu
Not. I lasted all of 15 minutes!
Behind the scenes/E
channel -- Cynthia, 18:50:01 09/26/01 Wed
Found this on another board. Thought you might be interested. I'm not able to see this because I
don't have cable. If anyone watches could you post a summary?
Date Posted: 18:49:28 09/26/01 Wed Author: lurker26 Author Host/IP: jon2.lnc.com / 206.99.186.31
Subject: E! Behind the Scenes Look at BTVS (m)
Just checking out tvguide online for tonight and noticed this on E!:
Buffy the Vampire Slayer 60 min. A behind-the-scenes look at the TV series.
Rating: TV-PG Content: Suggestive Dialog Category: Entertainment & Magazine Shows Release
Year: 2001
Show times Date Time Channel VCR Plus+ Monday, 1 8:00 PM 4 E! 976979 Tuesday, 2 2:00 PM 4 E!
830802 Tuesday, 2 6:00 PM 4 E! 887686 Sunday, 7 1:00 AM 4 E! 135129 Sunday, 7 8:00 PM 4 E!
870755 Friday, 12 2:00 PM 4 E! 525928
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Behind the scenes/E channel -- Dedalus, 13:08:17 09/27/01 Thu
That is good news. I love behind-the-scene stuff. But when will it be on? Is that this week or next
week?
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[> [> Re: Behind the scenes/E channel -- Cynthia, 19:07:15 09/27/01 Thu
I'm assuming that the name of the day combined with the number means October. So they start
running on Oct. 1 and then at the various times listed during the week.
So it's next week.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Got it - missed it the first time - thanks -- Dedalus, 09:19:22 09/29/01 Sat
DVD's finally coming out? -- Cynthia, 18:53:08 09/26/01
Wed
Another tidbit.
Date Posted: 18:15:51 09/26/01 Wed Author: FOXchase73 Author Host/IP: pool-141-150-184-
137.atc.east.verizon.net / 141.150.184.137 Subject: Buffy Season One DVDs Release Due
1/15/2002
Hey all, I just read at www.dvdfile.com that Fox has annouced a date of 1/15/2001 for the Buffy
Season 1 DVDs which is great news!They just annouced it so take a look! I would imagine a new 3
tape VHS boxset of Season 4 will be released also on that date following the pattern of the years
previous. We can hope
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: DVD's finally coming out? -- Cynthia, 20:05:05 09/26/01 Wed
Found it listed for $50 at Amazon.com. And, yes, it's our (USA) region. Amazon seems to be taking
pre-orders.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: DVD's finally coming out? -- spotjon, 06:32:24 09/27/01 Thu
Fox has annouced a date of 1/15/2001 for the Buffy Season 1 DVDs...
January 2001?!? They sure did a good job of sneaking those in without us knowing about it! ;-) Maybe
the Ghost of Christmas Past will come and visit me this year.
I assume the person mean 2002, not 2001.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: DVD's finally coming out? -- Cynthia, 19:10:54 09/27/01 Thu
Yah, 2002. Amazon lists at $50 but suggested is around $39. I'm going to assume price will drop to
suggested price or below as more vendors start taking pre-orders. I'll have to buy at the store (no
credit card, sigh).
I can assume that on the DVD's there are no cuts. You think we may even get the scenes that were
edited out of the shooting script?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> All the DVD details...Yes, it's really happening!!! -- Rob, 11:10:37 09/28/01 Fri
From DVDFile.com
"On January 15th, Fox unleashes Buffy The Vampire Slayer: The Complete First Season.
Presented in full frame with English and French 2.0 surround tracks, extras include a full length
audio commentary on "Welcome to Hellmouth" by Joss Whedon, three "Joss
Whedon Talks" interviews on six episodes ("Welcome To Hellmouth," "The
Harvest," "Witch," "Never Kill A Boy On the First Date,"
"Angel" and "Puppet Show"), an additional interview with Whedon and actor
David Boreanaz, a Buffy trailer, the original pilot script, a photo gallery, biographies and DVD-ROM
weblinks."
I've heard rumors that there will be commentaries on every other episode besides "Welcome to
the Hellmouth" as well, all with Joss, but we'll have to wait till the date gets closer to find out.
Hopefully the price will drop down from $50, since it is only a 3-disk set, but even if it doesn't, I of
course will be first in line to buy it!
So, yes, it's really happening...unless God forbid something horrible happens like last year. (Which is
really annoying by the way...since, if the set had been released last January, as scheduled, we'd
probably be getting the THIRD set right now!! but what can you do?) I'm so excited!!! :) :) :)
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[> [> [> [> YAY!!!!!!!! -- Deeva, 12:29:51 09/28/01 Fri
I've been waiting for so long for this that I was tempted to buy the tape sets. Glad I didn't and I
really didn't want to start recording so many episodes (Did that with another show and while it's not
hard to do, storage is an issue). It's almost like Christmas!
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: YAY!!!!!!!! -- OnM, 11:53:26 09/30/01 Sun
Certainly agree with you about the taping, but it's going to be awhile before we see seasons 2,3,4 and
5 on DVD in the U.S.
I have S4 & S5 completely taped off the original broadcasts, but my coverage of S1,2 and 3 is spotty.
Since the DVD's of S1 will be out in just a few months now, I'm not too concerned with that year, but
will tape S2 and S3 for viewage in the meantime.
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[> [> [> [> Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yessssss!!!!!!... OK, I'm
calm now. -- OnM, 20:55:02 09/28/01 Fri
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> [> Dude. Woah. Okay, prescription from the Second Evil: take two DVDs,
and post in the morning. ;-) -- Solitude1056, 19:51:08 09/29/01 Sat
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: DVD's finally coming out? -- Deeva, 12:34:54 09/28/01 Fri
"You think we may even get the scenes that were edited out of the shooting script?"
Not unless there's a section of deleted scenes. Sometimes those can be good (very rarely) and bad
(very often). Almost all of the deleted scenes that they show on the dvd's that I've seen are cut for a
pretty good reason. Didn't make sense, too long or gave a way too much too early.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> [> Re: DVD's finally coming out? -- Rob, 16:30:54 09/28/01 Fri
Yeah, I don't really care as much about the extras. I'm just excited about having great copies of all
the episodes. I hope all the other seasons come out eventually...sooner rather than later!!
The one extra I'm really psyched about is the Joss commentaries. I've heard they're extremely
insightful and take you into his mind...What a wonderful, wonderful place that must be!
Dawn a thief? -- bible belt, 20:05:51 09/26/01 Wed
This may have been discussed, I'm a little green, but does anyone remember Dawn stealing a pair of
earrings from Tara? I don't know the name of the episode.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: Dawn a thief? -- Drizzt, 20:28:46 09/26/01 Wed
Dawn stole earings from Anya not Tara. The episode was Intervention.
Also stole a magic book from the Magic Shop/Giles in the ep Forever when she wanted to ressurect
Joyce.
Broke into the Magic Shop in the ep Blood Ties I think, but she was only after information inside
Giles's notebook in that instance.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Dawn a thief? -- Deeva, 21:47:37 09/26/01 Wed
I wonder if the stolen earrings will be addressed? It was very curious to see her taking them but I
really can't think why she would do that.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> [> Re: Dawn a thief? -- Jennifer, 06:01:58 09/27/01 Thu
Yeah, it was Anya, and Joss said that it would be cleared up this season. It's like the time Tara
botched a spell with Willow and we didn't find out why until the following season. Good ole Joss,
always keeping us guessing!!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> [> Re: Dawn a thief? -- bible belt, 16:23:06 09/27/01 Thu
Thanks, I do that a lot, as you'll discover, if you read very many of my posts.
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[> [> [> Re: Dawn a thief? -- Drizzt, 16:35:37 09/27/01 Thu
No problem. One thing is if you know the correct episodes you can see a summary of them that Masq
has done. Also you could read the 1st Anniversery Character Posting Party entry on Dawn...
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[> [> [> [> Re: Dawn a thief? -- bible belt, 11:12:40 09/28/01 Fri
Thank you. Will do that.
Buffy rerun obsevations --
vampire hunter D, 22:20:17 09/26/01 Wed
I've been watching the first season on FX (for the first time for most episodes) and I can't believe how
much everyone changed. I don't even rember Aly having hair that long (by the time I satrted
watching the show regularly, she was wearing it shoulder length). I was also amazed at how much
younger Sarah looked. And, is it just me, or did she have bigger boobs back then?
But the main reason I posting now is something else I observed. The cheerleader who spontaneously
combusted, who played her? I swear it looked like Amber Benson. Does anyone know who that
actress was (I have noticed that Joss & Co. do reuse actors over and over in different roles).
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[> Buffy rerun obsevations -- Brian, 04:03:48 09/27/01 Thu
I was surprised when Xander refered to himself as invisible twice during one sequence, setting up
what happens to him in "Fear Itself" and Willow's reference to a railroad spike in the
head, foreshadowing the arrival of Spike. Cool!
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[> Re: Buffy rerun obsevations -- rowan, 08:30:45 09/27/01 Thu
I have also enjoyed seeing Harmony and Amy's first appearances. It's also been interesting
comparing Katherine Madison to Willow and speculating on Willow's future...and how gungho was
Giles about living on a Hellmouth? Time has beaten that enthusiasm out of him.
It's great to see the old shows again. I'm remembering all over again why I fell in love with this
show.
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[> Just finished watching Graduation. I've now seen ALL of Buffy--woohoo! (Spoilers) --
Dichotomy, 16:11:31 09/27/01 Thu
I just finished watching Season 3 and loved it! Yes, Buffy did start out with bigger boobs in Season 1,
but she also had more meat on her bones in general. She is now wafer thin. Did you also notice how
their voices sound younger too? Even Angel's, whose voice should have stopped changing a few
hundred years ago, you'd think.
Spoiler Space
Something that stuck in my mind as I watched past seasons: If Amy is going to be deratted, could
she be one of the Bads this season? She had those black magic eyes before she turned herself into a
rat.
1st Anniversary Character Posting Party: Warren --
MPN, 07:07:54 09/27/01 Thu
WARREN: Well, I made it so if she heard me and she didn't answer... it causes this kind of
feedback.
BUFFY: If you call her and she doesn't answer, it hurts her. You're one creepy little dweeb,
Warren...
-Shooting Script for Episode 5.15, "I Was Made To Love You"
We are first introduced to boy genius Warren Mears in the fifteenth episode of Season 5, not an
exceptional installment by any means, but still an enjoyable outing with a nice combination of both
comedy and drama. At this point, Buffy is still feeling sorry for herself about Riley's departure, and
to add another loop to the Slayer's emotional roller-coaster, we can now throw in the revulsion
toward Spike's confession of love. The episode basically revolves around Buffy's despair at the
collapse of her recent relationship, and her fear that something is wrong with her. At the end of the
story, the Slayer has apparently learned a valuable lesson, deciding that it is more important for her
to start loving herself and her life rather than worry about finding someone to love her. The key
instructors in this lesson are Warren and his girlfriend-bot April.
I find Warren to be a sort of parallel to Victor Frankenstein. Like the most famous "mad
scientist" in all literature, Warren obviously possesses a phenomenal intellect, but he uses it in
the wrong ways and for the wrong intentions. Granted, Frankenstein creates the monster in his
quest for knowledge, while Warren builds April for selfish reasons, hoping to find emotional
completeness through her, yet both of these geniuses end up cruelly abandoning their creations who
remain utterly lost and confused without their masters.
The first scene with Warren takes place at the Spring Break party, although we already feel like we
know him since April has mentioned his name so many times. The shooting script describes him as
" 20-ish, a little nerdy and awkward," and this seems to be an accurate sketch. This
scene, which culminates with Spike being thrown through the window by an infuriated April,
provides enough evidence for us, the Scoobies, and Buffy to conclude that April is a robot and Warren
is her creator. Unusually, but not exactly surprisingly, it is Xander who figures out why she was
built, claiming that Warren has created a sex-bot (in one of the funniest moments in the episode that
also kind of makes you realize how much you miss Oz)
XANDER: She's a sex bot. I mean, what guy doesn't dream about that? Beautiful girl with no other
thought but to please you, willing to do anything...
He looks around the table at all the women... Anya, Tara, Willow, Buffy... all wearing looks ranging
between disgust and more disgust.
XANDER: Too many girls. I miss Oz. He'd get it. He wouldn't say anything, but he'd get it.
The argument that ensues between Buffy and the Scoobies over how to judge Warren provides, in my
opinion, the perfect outline for discussing him as a character. While Buffy is ready to jump down his
throat and label him a sleazebag (which is not completely inaccurate), Willow points out that
perhaps genuine loneliness was the backing behind Warren's creating April. It is compassionate and
empathic Tara who truly seems to feel for the young robotics expert, however.
TARA: But it's so weird. I mean, everyone wants a nice, normal person to, you know, share with. If
this guy, if he couldn't find that... I guess it's kind of sad.
Her words do have some truth to them, and as sorry as we feel for what happens to April, I think it
is important that we do not simply label Warren a cowardly pervert. This is of course difficult, as his
treatment toward April throughout the episode is nothing short of shameful. As if that were not
enough, we see him treating Katrina poorly as well, despite the fact that he claims to love her. He
tells her to shut up, pushes her around, and while this may partially be for her protection, it does not
reflect very favorably on him as a person. Taking a closer look at his two robotic creations, April and
the Buffy-bot, we see that they are subservient and acquiescent: they wear pink, smile all the time to
look pretty, and don't possess a shred of genuine intelligence. "Crying is blackmail," April
remarks cheerfully, and we can only wonder what other helpful little lessons Warren has
programmed his girlfriend with. Buffy's words about "some guys getting it right" at the
end of the episode ring true, as Warren truly seems to be hopeless when it comes to understanding
how relationships should work.
For all of his unfavorable traits, however, let us not forget what a painful feeling loneliness is.
Isolation is something we have all experienced. As children we create imaginary friends for ourselves
who we eventually outgrow when we develop stronger ties with other people our own age. As we
grow older, however, it's not quite as easy, and as BtVS so outstandingly pointed out time after time
in the earlier seasons, loneliness and isolation in the teenage years can truly hurt a person to the
point where it becomes an almost physical pain.
Anyway, getting back to Warren, he built April to fill the void in his life, and I think he can
genuinely be believed when he says that April was designed for more than sex.
WARREN: No! I mean, I made her to love me. She cares about what I care about and she wants to be
with me. She listens to me and supports me. I didn't make a toy, I made a girlfriend.
BUFFY: A girlfriend? Are you saying you two... are you in love with her?
WARREN: I really thought I would be. I mean, she's perfect. But it's just... I don't know. It was too
easy and predictable. She got boring. She was exactly what I wanted and I didn't want her. I thought
I was going crazy.
Granted, this isn't much of a vindication, but it is somewhat refreshing that Warren saw more in
April than a sexual object. Obviously, things are simply not meant to be between the genius and his
robot, and it is no surprise that perfection gets tedious quickly. Relationships are built on both
concord and conflict, and being with someone who constantly agreed with everything you said and
did would eventually become very mind-numbing. April has no real independent thoughts; she
knows what she was programmed to know. Personally, I'm reminded of Spike's impassioned speech
to Buffy and Angel in "Lover's Walk," where he states that:
"Real love isn't brains, children, it's blood, it's blood screaming inside you to work its
will."
Warren and April's relationship has no real feelings or emotions to it, save perhaps for Warren's
initial attachment to the robot (which is hardly analogous to the love between Buffy and Angel, or
Spike and Drusilla, etc.) April's own devotion to Warren is the result of a computer's memory
function, not of blood, or heart, or soul. Warren obviously has a phenomenal mind, but if Spike is to
be believed (and who wants to argue with Spike on the subjects of love and blood?), Warren's
intellectual prowess is incapable of replicating true love. It is not very surprising that the robot
designer finds himself attracted to Katrina, a girl who is obviously independent, headstrong, and
intelligent (and simultaneously unwilling to put up with crap from him). Whereas April presents no
contest to be with, pursuing Katrina is a challenge, and what person doesn't enjoy a challenge?
Here is where Warren blows it, however. He thinks he can escape April by simply abandoning her,
hoping her batteries will run out, and his actions put all of Sunnydale in peril as his creation does
not understand her own strength or her destructive capabilities. By only programming her to love
him, she is at a complete loss without him, and the more humane thing to do would have been to give
her some kind of back-up function or shut her down altogether. Instead, he tries to escape his
problems in a cowardly way and ends up putting other people in danger. When Buffy forces Warren
to actually confront his robot, he panics and shifts the blame to her. Granted, he knew Buffy was no
ordinary person and stood a much better chance against April than he ever would, but this just
further accentuates his worst flaw; his cowardice. Warren is obviously a very jumpy person, and
tends to grow nervous quite easily, which in turn leads to cowardly actions on his part. At the end of
the episode, he makes no true effort to resist Spike's commands regarding the construction of the
Buffy-bot, despite the fact that he knows he shouldn't be making another robot, especially one that
looks like Buffy who he owes big time. His second (albeit brief) appearance is two episodes later in
"Intervention." When he turns the Buffy-bot over to Spike, we can see how nervous he is
in the presence of the vampire. Despite the fact that there was no way that Spike could hurt him, the
demon's threats were no doubt more than enough to get Warren working on a new robot, further
reflecting his fear. His last spoken words before disappearing reflect his spineless nature:
WARREN: Now, uh, you said I could leave town -
To get out of the room, Warren has to pass right by Spike. He tries to do so as Spike is still staring at
the bot. Without taking his eyes off her, Spikes hand shoots out and grabs Warren by the
collar.
When Spike is busy playing kissy-face with his new toy, we can hear Warren bolting out the door in
the background, and we expect no less from him.
Despite his flaws, however, Warren's actions regarding April allow him to teach Buffy a beneficial
lesson. When Tara first offers her sympathetic words regarding the young genius, stating that
everybody needs somebody, Buffy's resolve to call Ben is stronger than before and she follows
through with this intention. However, by the end of the episode, after seeing how incomplete April
was without Warren, she draws a parallel between herself and the robot:
BUFFY: Nah -- people are the strangest people. I mean, I'm not that different from her. I've got so
much more than her -- I've got this great life, all this power, all these friends, my family, but still,
every time I don't have a boyfriend, I feel like someone took away my arms.
Xander stops fussing with the window and looks at Buffy, concerned.
XANDER: You feel like that? Armless?
BUFFY: Well, kinda. I feel like something real important is missing. But it isn't. I mean, it is
missing, but it isn't that important, you know?
In the end, she decides to call things off with Ben.
It's somewhat ironic and amusing that the character we sympathize more with at the end of the
episode is the one who wasn't even alive to begin with. Still, despite being rather unlikable, Warren
is not an evil person, and he does not want to see other people hurt because of his carelessness
(though he probably should have thought of that before he gave April super-strength and defense
mechanisms). I'd like to think that we haven't seen the last of Warren, and who knows; his character
definitely showed an interesting spark in the two episodes in which he was featured. With a little
development he could become quite an enjoyable supporting character: perhaps having learned his
lesson he could try building robots for good intentions, or conversely, become selfish once more and
use his gift of creation for malevolent purposes. While obviously not Big Bad or Scooby Gang
material, I still think there are some interesting stories left to be told with Warren, and hopefully,
we'll get to see some of them unfold in the coming season.
All quotes were taken from the shooting scripts on Psyche's site (thanks).
Enjoy the premiere everyone.
-Marc
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[> Re: 1st Anniversary Character Posting Party: Warren -- Cactus
Watcher, 08:30:46 09/27/01 Thu
Good job, MPN.
I think "I Was Made to Love You" is one of the worst episodes in years, mostly because
Warren's creation is ridiculous. April is a sample of the partronizing way Hollywood portrayed
women in the 1950's, but she sure as heck isn't any man's idea of a perfect girl friend. What guy
really wants a girl friend who tries to beat up any other woman who looks at him? What guy wants a
girl friend who constantly babbles platitudes? And having April growl is as idiotic as Buffy implies.
I'm glad MPN brought up some of Warren's good points, because as a designer of human beings he's
a nincompoop!
A little off the topic, but in my book Buffy's trying to make April feel good about herself, as her
batteries run down is just about as perverse as Warren using her for a sex-bot. Besides, the
comparison between April's slavish attention to Warren, and Buffy's desire to have some kind of
relationship with a guy again, is pretty far fetched. Unless you think Buffy is a complete idiot, you're
not going to believe she's going to keep up her goofy act around Ben for long whether or not she ever
runs into April. Yes, people do very stupid things for love, but it's past time we should think of Buffy
as being as stupid as was implied in "I Was Made to Love You."
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[> [> Re: 1st Anniversary Character Posting Party: Warren -- Wisewoman, 19:48:30 09/27/01
Thu
Nice job, enjoyed the essay, and it'll be interesting to see more of Warren in Season 6.
CW: I dunno about that last scene between Buffy and April--to my mind the pathos was the result of
the implication that there are women out there very similar to April, women who only exist in
relation to a man, their man, and Buffy was drawn to comfort April because of that. Even Buffy's
anger at Warren seemed to be as much because of how slavishly devoted he'd made April, as that he
had made her at all.
Maybe it's a "chick" thing (lol), but I genuinely felt sympathy for April, I appreciated
Buffy's concern and tender treatment of her as she "died" and I felt the whole thing was
very touching.
Go figure...
;o)
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[> [> [> Dito on WW's comments -- Drizzt, 20:31:33 09/27/01 Thu
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[> [> [> [> What is it that Buffy says over and over about Robo-Buffy? -- Cactus Watcher,
06:45:52 09/28/01 Fri
It isn't real.
The ending with April is classic tear-jerking manipulation. Buffy's voice softens and the music gets
sentimental. April represents people (not JUST women) with a genuine emotional problem, but at
the end of the day she's not one of those people. She' just a pretty, but annoying pile of junk.
Real people deserve our genuine concern. We can spare well written characters a few tears. But,
come on, guys! Don't let yourselves be jerked around by second rate stories (IMHO a male-bashing
story at that)! Make Mutant Enemy work for our loyalty!
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[> [> [> [> [> Re: What is it that Buffy says over and over about Robo-Buffy? --
Wisewoman, 10:04:56 09/28/01 Fri
But the whole basis of science fiction and fantasy is to evoke an emotional response to something
"not real" that represents something very real, whether it be a type of living being, a
political or religious ideology, or a planetary environmental system.
That's why I've always enjoyed it so much. Granted, April was not the cleverest of metaphors, but on
a visceral level, it worked...at least for me.
;o)
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[> [> [> [> [> [> I think were back on the same page ;o) -- Cactus Watcher, 15:08:04
09/28/01 Fri
My only problem with what you said is your phrase "is to evoke an emotional response." I
think science fiction and fantasy become worth reading or watching only when they evoke both a
rational and an emotional response. Otherwise for me, I might as well be watching Days of Our
Lives.
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[> [> [> [> [> [> [> Re: I'll buy that... ;o) -- WW, 16:55:56 09/28/01 Fri
..the addition of "rational" improves the definition, no doubt about it.
Emotional responses differ, obviously. I am disgusted with the blatant manipulation of films like
Beaches, Terms of Endearment, Steel Magnolias, etc., and yet moved to tears by Rutger Hauer's last
speech in Bladerunner. To my mind, April's "death" scene was closer to the latter, and
the former three are right up there with Days of Our Lives...lol!
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[> Re: 1st Anniversary Character Posting Party: Warren -- Rufus, 09:30:29 09/27/01 Thu
Thanks for the essay.
I may not like Warren, but I can understand why he did the things he did. His building of the Sex-
bot, April came from the feelings of lonliness and alienation that many have felt at one time in their
lives. The big difference is that Warren had the technical expertise to go far beyond a blowup doll.
His creation was built for sex but he did consider that he was building the perfect girlfriend. Once
every sexual need was satisfied, Warren became bored. He had built a machine of love, but her love
was only superficial. April couldn't interact in a unique way past her programing. I guess she was
like watching the same re-run on television over and over again. You eventually know the story so
well that you yearn for more variety, a new story. Warren is kind of sad. Sad because in the end he
was shallow and self involved enough to abandon his creation without regard to what would happen
to anyone that would encounter her. I found the scene at the end with Buffy talking to April
touching. April may have attacked Buffy, but her intentions weren't evil like most of the opponents
Buffy has fought before. April was so sugary sweet and innocent (not talking about her special skills
here) that how could anyone react other than to treat her like a child. April wasn't evil, Warren
wasn't evil. April was the result of lonliness, her ability to feel jealous a surprise to Warren. April
may have been a mechanical reality, but not a human one. Warrens treatment of April and his
girlfriend Katrina told me that he is immature and selfish. Character flaws, but not in league with
the evil Buffy battles everyday.
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[> [> Re: 1st Anniversary Character Posting Party: Warren -- Drizzt, 17:34:09 09/27/01
Thu
April had personality, but that personality had no depth.
Warren could have programmed her to have genuine emotions instead of scenerio responses and
facial expressions that mimick the expressions humans make when they have emotional issues.
Could have used a Random Number Generator and a learning program to have her develope quirks
and personality independant of his original program; but then she might change in a way he could
not predict, and Warren being a coward would want to avoid that.
Another issue is the intillectual thing. Warren could have told April to read a few hundred books on
all sorts of subjects, and program her to be able to respond inteligently in conversation; that would
be a different sort of threat to a weak man. Warren is a nerdy person; so a robot with a lightning fast
computer for a brain and photographic memory could in theory become superior to him intillectualy.
Think Data from Star Trek.
I like the image that just came to mind of Data talking to April, discussing love in his logical
way...then cassually asking her if and how she would like to be reprogrammed so that she would not
be unhappy about Warren rejecting her. Romance of robots where one is logical and smart while the
other is emotional and ditsy? LOL
First Anniversary
Post- Joyce Pt 1 -- The Godfather, 16:35:23 09/27/01 Thu
I apologize in advance for not making any coherent sense. My bad.
-Shawn
****
JOYCE: It's hard. New town and everything...It is for me, too. I'm trying to make it work. I'm
*going* to make it work.
-Welcome to the Hellmouth
And thus is all begins. We met Joyce earlier in the ep but she was basically the token mother telling
her little girl to have a great day and not get into trouble. I'm sure not one of us here hasn't heard
those words from our own parents. But it is with this scene that Joyce Summers begins to expand
and we start to get to know this woman who is an integral, in fact probably the most important, part
of Buffy.
Let's start with the briefest of actual history. By the linescore.
We don't know when exactly Joyce was born but it's reasonable to speculate that she was between
45-50 when she passed on. We know only of one husband, Hank. She divorced him. She initially had
only one child, a little girl named Buffy but later was given a second named Dawn. She died of
complications from cancer.
Amazing how that barely scratches the surface, neh?
SEASON 1-
Joyce: Honey, a-are you worried your father isn't gonna show?
Buffy: No! N-not really. Should I be?
Joyce: Well, of course, not! I-I-I just, I-I know it's a hard situation. You just have to remember that
your father adores you. No more than I do, by the way.
Nightmares
When we first meet Joyce, she is a recently divorced single mother of a teenage trouble-making
daughter who has just been expelled from her ultra-ritzy high school in Los Angeles. Joyce is looking
for a new start. She has moved her little girl to a small Southern California town where it's likely
that no one will be able to draw immediate conclusions. Also, it seems like this is the only school that
would take Buffy after she burned down her gym.
In the first episode, she moves swiftly between concerned but wary parent to supportive optimistic
cheerleader to reluctant disciplinarian. You can tell that she is trying to find the balance between all
three but stumbling badly with a child who is far too independent. She seems to be wondering what
happened to her baby girl. Buffy seems to be wondering that too. Buffy tries to reassure her mother
that she won't disappoint her again but ultimately she is never given a choice in the matter. Due to
this, Joyce will spend much of her raising years moving between these three parenting traits.
Ultimately Joyce is at a loss. She is trying to restart her own life after her marriage ended and yet
guide he troubled daughter. She is undertaking a new business and a new adventure. She is worried
and wary but optimistic and hopeful. These four words will personify Joyce for the majority of her
run on this show.
It is shown early on that the Joyce/Buffy dynamic is one of the most essential ones. Joyce acts as the
ground for Buffy while the Scoobs are the sky. Buffy is obviously in-between, always striving for a
balance that she never quite achieves.
In THE WITCH, Joyce urges Buffy to get back on the horse and back to what she used to do. She
tries to press Buffy towards calmer, more solid adventures. Buffy is of course reluctant, reminding
her mother that it is HER life. Joyce seems taken aback and it is through this that we understand
just how much Joyce lives through Buffy. And how new she really is at this.
Joyce: Honey. Uhhh! Great parenting form! Little shaky on the dismount.
THE WITCH
It is also in this ep that another constant theme that is Joyce comes to light; she is a very hard-
worker. In this one, Buffy seems to be asking her mom to spend more time with her, showing signs of
missing the old school family ties. Joyce doesn't blow her off exactly but rather is very invested in the
opening of her gallery. Her reasons? To give her and her little girl a good life.
And ultimately she's doing pretty good. She's running a successful gallery and thus far has managed
to keep Buffy from extreme trouble. Problem is, she just doesn't know what is going on.
Two of the best examples of this are the episodes ANGEL and PROPHECY GIRL.
In ANGEL, Buffy brings home a mysterious and charismatic man that is injured. She chats briefly
with Angel but you can tell that she is immediately on edge about this older man. We can speculate
that this is either because of his age, worries for her daughter or that something fairly personal and
involving Hank has entered the equation. It's quite hard to tell but it could reasonably be a
combination of all three.
When she tells him it was nice to meet him, there's a warning in her tone. It's quick clear that she
doesn't buy for a minute that he is her tutor. Angel is respectful to her but that doesn't seem to lift
her concerns. If only she knew the truth, then she probably would have understood her fears about
him. But simply, it's much to early for that and one wonders if she could have handled it that
soon.
PROPHECY GIRL shows a tenderness to the Buffy/Joyce relationship that is so familiar and
warming that I recall being troubled by anyone who criticized this woman. She and Buffy are
obviously not extremely well off; they're struggling financially. The house they live in is quite large
and Buffy is a growing girl with no job meaning that the majority of her spending money comes from
the Bank of Mama.
Just the same, Joyce knows what prom means to her daughter. Normalcy. She knows what looking
good means to her. She just doesn't quite understand that Buffy is staring down the barrel of a
loaded pistol. Just the same, Buffy is touched.
People always talk of the deep symbolism of Buffy's dress being white as she walked willingly
towards her death. I think another type of symbolism is at work here. Early in the ep, Buffy is
looking through her scrapbook, remembering when things were simple and easy. Remembering the
good ol' days of being a child. The pictures move her nearly to tears and she wants so badly to touch
that place inside of her. When Joyce gives her the dress, it's like the last piece of the puzzle has been
locked into place. Buffy was reluctant to go to her death but her mother, so trustingly good, so
painfully loving tells her why she must. Joyce embodies every reason why Buffy must fight.
And so Buffy takes the dress, puts it on and goes to say her goodbyes to her friends. She's accepted
her fate and is now wearing that dress, a symbol of her family and all that is good as her
armor.
Buffy: And you had your whole life ahead of you.
Joyce: Yeah.
Buffy: Must be nice.
PROPHECY GIRL
Clearly she doesn't believe this but at this point, it simply doesn't matter. She knows her fate. And
curiously, in Joyce's eyes, you get the sense that she too knows that something is amiss. Sadly, due
to the break in seasons, we never get to see Buffy's initial post-traumatic reactions. It would have
been fascinating to see how Joyce tried to get her child through this mess.
SEASON 2-
This season spotlights the best and worst of Joyce. She runs through all the emotions and still
manages to come out kicking. She makes mistakes but they are understandable even if they are not
commendable. She tries, sometimes too hard, to understand her child who seems to be trying to pull
away more and more. She fails to grasp the horror of her daughters' destiny, insisting on innocence
and then finally accepting it with a bleeding heart.
The season opens with Buffy coming home from a summer in Los Angeles. Joyce is quickly brought
up to speed. She asks if Buffy stayed out of trouble and her ex husband confirms that she did. He
says however that Buffy was distant, elsewhere. This is something that Joyce sees for herself later in
the episode. Her facial expressions are key here where the dialogue fails. You can see the concern but
the strange feeling that there is a wall between them, something Joyce feels she can't climb over. So
simply, she hopes for the best.
Joyce: Well, welcome to my world. I haven't been able to get through to her for so long. I'll just be
happy if she makes it through the school year.
When She Was Bad
This wall is Buffy's slaying. At this time Joyce doesn't have the words or knowledge to identify it as
such but as Buffy becomes the Slayer more, her relationship with her mom who cannot share in her
world with her fails a bit. This is never more apparent than in SCHOOL HARD.
Buffy's responsibilities as a Slayer are overtaking her life more and more, she barely seems able to
breathe. Joyce simply wants her little girl to survive in school and wonders why she can't. And
because she doesn't know the ins and outs of her daughters' life, she has no choice but to chalk it up
to Buffy getting herself into trouble.
She so desperately wants into Buffy's life but the Slayer holds her at arms length over just about
everything. All the way up to and including school. Easily, the school relationship is the more
natural mother/daughter moments of their relationship. Joyce believes Buffy can do better than she
is, she knows Buffy is smart and creative but simply cannot understand why. This is a metaphor for
the concept that as adults and parents grow older, they lose focus on why things don't work so easily.
There's always something screwing up the whole mess.
This is really the first ep in which Joyce is actively involved in Buff's everyday nightmare. Spike and
his crew overtake Sunnydale High during Parent/Teacher night. This is one of the major eps about
Buffy trying to balance her real world life with her nightmare job. It's not going so well. It is during
this time where it is safe to believe that Joyce starts realizing that there is something different about
Buffy. She is shocked by her childs' cool under pressure way. And then, in a tribute to the Summers
women, Joyce shows the same strength when she goes after Spike to protect Buffy. Oddly though,
she then files it away. She compliments her daughter and their level of understanding grow but in a
way, so does that wall separating them. Joyce simply does not seem willing to open herself up to the
concept of something greater despite the fact that she has now seen it with her own eyes.
But something is growing here, some kind of respect for something she doesn't understand.
Joyce: Ampata, don't you look wonderful! Oh, I wish you could talk my daughter into going with
you.
Ampata: I tried, but she is very stubborn.
Joyce: Well, I'm glad someone else sees that.
Buffy gives her mother a look and gets it right back. She turns back to Xander and Ampata,
smiling.
INCA MUMMY GIRL
Joyce wants Buffy to be normal even though she can sense that she's not. Whether or not she thinks
like Cord did in season 1 that Buffy is in a gang, we don't know. Just the same, she wants her
daughter to have fun and be young. Buffy is resistant because of duty. What we see here however is
that the truce between mother and daughter has deepened.
It takes a major beating in TED though.
It's reasonable to assume that Ted is the first man that Joyce has been interested in since her
divorce. He is charming and charismatic and he seems willing to take the reigns of control which
Joyce appreciates for a few minutes. She seems worn down by having to decide so much and we can
guess that much of her previous choices were dictated by Hank. It is in this struggle that we see her
becoming a stronger more independent woman but at this time, she's still looking for the
ground.
Buffy doesn't like Ted. Not unexpected when you do consider that this is the first since Hank. Joyce
takes this but seems to be certain that Buffy will adapt. We understand later that she is drugged up
and in such a euphoric state but just the same, I'd like to focus on this. Joyce has seemed to go from
seeing Buffy as a child needing a guiding hand to an adult who should respond in such a manner.
However, I don't believe that in a sound mind, Joyce would ever discount Buffy telling her that
anyone had threatened her. She seems to be coming to trust Buffy's instincts more and such a
discount can only be seen as off-kilter.
The mother/daughter team goes through one of the hardest trials of the their relationship after Buffy
kills Ted. Obviously Joyce is inclined to believe the best in her daughter but this all points back to a
time not along ago, a time that is very painful because everything around her was breaking down.
She believes her baby is a good person but this act terrifies her. She finds that she can't even look at
Buffy which traumatizes her little girl to no end. Joyce's act of putting things away is symbolic of
again packing away innocence and expectations. She seems to have taken on a doomsday stance
here.
Luckily, this doesn't last long before Joyce realizes the golden rule of love in the BuffyVerse: It's
BAD. A completely demented Ted finds Joyce and demands that she leaves with him immediately.
Joyce tries to reason with him as she moves through her emotions of shock and joy. She doesn't hit
terror until Buffy is brought into the equation. Quickly, Joyce realizes that the situation is very
wrong and attempts to get away. She struggles, unwilling to give in until she is finally knocked
out.
And then again, she represses.
Buffy: I wouldn't worry. He's not coming back.
Joyce: I wish I could be so sure.
Buffy: Trust me. He's on the scrap heap. Of life.
TED
And Buffy again, allows it. She has almost become the protector here, ensuring that her mom's world
stays together, understanding how fragile everything is. It's a strange twist in their dynamic but one
that Joss doesn't allow to settle before he swaps them back around in BAD EGGS.
In this one, Buffy finally gets to understand what her mom goes through day in and day out when
she is assigned an egg baby. Joyce derives great pleasure from harassing the hell out of Buffy,
enjoying the payback. Just the same, she is keenly aware of her daughters exhaustion and thus
worried. Buffy tells her it's fine and indeed it is; she's just worn down from the slaying and the Angel
loving.
Later that night Joyce walks into Buffy's room to find her daughter awake and looking like she is
about to go out. Not able to tell the truth, Buffy is frustrated into the position of again appearing to
be the delinquent teenager. Joyce seems annoyed and yet more comfortable with this role. At least
she can understand it. At least she can do something about it. The disciplinarian part of Joyce has
always seemed the most confident. At least early on. This is probably why when after another eagle-
eye look at her daughters' world, she stays in step with her need to deny what is unfolding before her
eyes.
Joyce Summers is a by the book kind of woman. If logic can't define it, it shouldn't exist. All that she
is seeing goes against this and thus she rails, convincing herself that it is not true and instead
compensating in the parenting department. Buffy, still desperate to keep her mom in the dark, still
needing to have that un-connected innocence in place, accepts this reluctantly.
Joss seems to like to continuously toss this relationship up in the air and redefine it. He starts one of
the most important legs of this journey on Buffy's birthday. She is turning 17 and this weary warrior
needs to let some steam off. Joyce promises a shopping trip. Buffy promises she'll be there. Things
are light and easy between mother and daughter only hitting a snag when Buffy reiterates her desire
to drive and Joyce denies it. I'm uncertain as to whether this is a trust issue or merely being
overprotective but Buffy hardly mounts a large protest, deferring to her mom's judgment on the
matter. It's a non Slayer disagreement and maybe for her there is relief there.
After Buffy spends the night with Angel and then wakes up alone, she returns home, unsettled and
emotionally wrecked. Joyce recognizes this and asks if she is alright. Curiously, Buffy retreats from
her mother. It's like she's holding a dam back and knowing that if she lets go, Joyce will know
everything. She gets the hell away from her mom as quick as she can. Later on however, it only her
mother who can comfort her.
In one of the finest scenes Joss has ever filmed, Joyce lights a candle to celebrate Buffy's birthday
and her daughter tells her to let it burn. Joyce looks at Buffy and then just knows. She knows.
Kristine Sutherland who portrayed Joyce has said that that was her favorite scene because in that
one there were no words, no need for anything. She just knew that Buffy needed her, knew
something was wrong and knew that her place was taking care of her daughter. It was one of the
most poignant and effecting moments of all.
As for the wonderful world of Slayage that Joyce can't seem to accept, the evidence is mounting. In
BBB, she is once again mind controlled as well as all the women in Sunnydale into being obsessed
with Xander. She again, represses.
And then the boy she was wary of comes back into the picture.
Angel- now Angelus seems to understand how important Joyce is to his beloved. So he leaves a
picture of her for Buffy to find, a clear warning of who his target is. And then he watches Buffy
panic. She starts putting guards on her house but is to late to stop Angel from revealing to Joyce that
he made love to her daughter. Joyce is floored, caught clearly off guard by information she honestly
believed her daughter would share with her.
Joyce: Was he the first? No, wait. I don't wanna know. I don't think I want to.
Buffy: Yeah. He was the first. I mean, the only.
Joyce: He's older than you.
Buffy: I know.
Joyce: Too old, Buffy. And he's obviously not very stable. I really wish... I just thought you would
show more judgment.
Buffy: He wasn't like this before.
Joyce: Are you in love with him?
Buffy: I was.
Joyce: Were you careful?
Buffy: Mom, this is no time...
Joyce: Don't 'Mom' me, Buffy. You don't get to get out of this. You had sex with a boy you *didn't*
even see fit to tell me you were dating.
Buffy: I made a mistake.
Joyce: Yeah, well, don't just say that to shut me up, because I think you really did.
Buffy: I know that! I-I can't tell you everything.
Joyce: How about anything? Buffy, you can shut me out of your life, I am pretty much used to that.
But don't expect me to ever stop caring about you, because it's never gonna happen. I love you more
than anything in the world.
PASSION
Joyce seems to struggle between anger, frustration and fear for her daughter. Clearly she is
dismayed by Buff's choice but I think it's curious that again she notes the age difference. My mind
whirls here back to Hank but I'll try to stay true to the text. She yo-yos between telling Buffy how
disappointed she in her choices, to her anger at not even knowing Buffy was dating to her desperate
need to tell Buffy how much she loves her. That she's the most important thing in her world. These
comments almost immediately diffuse the situation. And mother and daughter again sit in calm but
once again, their relationship has shifted. Joyce is realizing now that her little girl isn't so little
anymore. She's just not quite ready to accept it.
I wonder then what she attributes Buff's collapse in KILLED BY DEATH to. Joyce is a smart woman
and she has to know something is afoot. She seems to think that Buffy is just emotionally wrecked
over Jenny's death but she doesn't seem to grasp the full nature of what exactly is happening. Just
the same, by trying to know who Giles is and what he is about, she shows a willingness perhaps to
start knowing even if she can't yet accept it.
But accept it she must in BECOMING 2.
Acceptance seems to be the key phrase for the last several eps. In fact all of this season. Joyce must
come to accept that Buffy is not just a little girl and the world isn't such a simple place. Joss has
always said that the scene in B2 where everything comes out is something of a metaphor for when a
gay individual comes out to their family.
Joyce: Do what? Buffy, what is happening?
Buffy: Just have another drink.
Joyce: Don't you talk to me that way! You don't get to just dump something like this on me and
pretend it's nothing!
Buffy: I'm sorry, Mom, but I don't have time for this.
Joyce: No! I am tired of 'I don't have time' or-or 'you wouldn't understand.' I am your mother, and
you will *make* time to explain yourself.
Buffy: I told you. I'm a Vampire Slayer.
Joyce: Well, I just don't accept that!
And what rational person could. Really all of this is too much. Joyce is struggling to understand but
failing miserably. Buffy is the adult here and Joyce the child and it's unsettling.
Buffy: Open your eyes, Mom. What do you think has been going on for the past two years? The fights,
the weird occurrences. How many times have you washed blood out of my clothing, and you still
haven't figured it out?
Joyce: Well, it stops now!
Buffy: No, it doesn't stop! It *never* stops! Do-do you think I chose to be like this? Do you have any
idea how lonely it is, how dangerous? I would *love* to be upstairs watching TV or gossiping about
boys or... God, even studying! But I have to save the world... again.
Joyce: No. This is insane. Buffy, you need help.
Buffy: I'm *not* crazy! What I need is for you to chill. I *have* to go!
Joyce: No. I am not letting you out of this house.
Buffy: You can't stop me.
Joyce: Oh yes I...You walk out of this house, don't even *think* about coming back!
Probably the most horrible words she has ever said. And by the end of the episode, ones Joyce regrets
with every part of her heart and soul. In anger and frustration, fear and confusion, she tried
desperately to turn back the clock, to make it not real. But she couldn't. This was a part of her
daughters' life she couldn't possibly understand. On the show, she immediately folds, broken.
It is later in that ep however, when she finds the letter left By Buffy that we see the true pain and
failure cross her face. She loves her daughter and has always lived for her. What more can there be?
And yet, she has still failed. The devastation is deep and thus she breaks down in tears.
SEASON THREE
It's been a long summer for Joyce Summers and it shows quickly in both body language and
appearance. Everything about her is crisp and controlled. Even her emotions. When she berates
Giles in ANNE, her emotion are kept carefully in check otherwise you suspect she might start
sobbing at any moment. We can tell from the dialogue that this woman has literally put her life on
hold, barely leaving the house because she thinks Buffy might call and mentally going over her final
conversation with her daughter over and over. She is stuck in a holding pattern of her own creation
and with each day that passes and with each time a lead doesn't pan out, she deflates a bit
more.
And yet when she sees her daughter, none of this matters. All that exists, all that is real is holding
her. She crushes Buffy to her. Buffy closes her eyes and inhales her mother, finally home. Finally
safe.
It's in DEAD MAN'S PARTY that we see the bits and pieces of what Joyce has been up to. he has
been struggling to survive in Buffy's absence and in that, finding that first supportive person she can
in the individual of Pat who is from the get-go, a Pink Lady gone bad. She's also brought into
evidence a strange thing that never really develops but has always lurked beneath the surface of
Joyce; alcoholism. Buffy made a comment to her mother in BECOMING 2 about having another
drink and in this one, she is again seen nursing the bottle. It's not a great shock that Joyce needs
something to distance her from all the pain, it's only too bad none of this ever got brought into the
light. It would have been interesting to see.
In this ep, Joyce is also striving desperately to make things right between she and Buff. It's obvious
that during the summer Joyce tried to understand her daughters' world. In the early parts of this ep,
she allows for Buff to go out slaying even though her tone indicates she wishes she would not. She is
over compensating, her tremendous guilt on apparent display.
It's not long before some of the anger and confusion comes back into play.
Joyce: Buffy, you made some bad choices. You just might have to live with some consequences.
And this is true. Buffy acknowledges this and for a moment, the wall grows again. Joyce seems to
want to resurrect it by again refusing to completely understand Buffy's place in the world.
Joyce: Nothing's settled yet. I just wish you didn't have to be so secretive about things. I mean, it's
not your fault you have a special circumstance. They should make allowances for you.
Buffy: Mom, I'm a Slayer. It's not like I need to ride a little bus to school.
Joyce: Couldn't you just tell a few people, like Principal Snyder and maybe the police?
Joyce: I mean, I would think they would be happy to have a... a superhero. Is that the right term? I
mean, it's not offensive, is it?
DEAD MAN'S PARTY
But the facts are staring her right in the face and later that night, even Joyce has to come to terms
with this as she watched Buffy and her team in action to defeat what Pat becomes when she places a
strange mask on her face.
Still, everything is not quite calm between the two of them just yet. Buffy panics after a fight and
gets ready to bolt again and Joyce comes unglued, allowing her emotions to spill out. How could she
not? All of this has simply been too much. This is a child that she loves more than herself and she
simply is at a loss of how to parent. The fact that Buff has lived by herself and seems willing to do it
again only makes things that much worse. Joyce seems to truly see Buffy running away as Buffy
punishing her for not understanding. Buff tries desperately to dispute this but Joyce is raw here, so
hurt and scared and angry. She reveals that she has spent every moment wondering and her
expressions brings this point home in living colour.
And yet, when it is all said and done, when the battle has caused the anger to slip away, again, their
embrace is the only thing that comforts either of them. They go quickly to each other, only concerned
for each others' safety.
When Faith comes into the picture, Joyce is quick to welcome her in, seeming to see a way out for her
daughter. What she doesn't understand is that Slaying is a tremendous part of who Buffy is and she
can't simply walk away. Joyce increases her need to have Buffy out when she discovers that her
daughter has died once. It's a sobering reality check that leaves the older Summers' woman
emotionally drained but finally understanding what all of this means.
Again we mostly see Joyce in the context of protecting her daughters' bets interests when she strong-
arms Snyder into accepting Buffy back into the school and then shows a unity with her daughter, a
common respect.
Unfortunately Buff is still keeping secrets. Angel is back and Buff can't stay away from her beloved.
Joyce and Giles catch Buffy in a lie and team-parent her. It's jarring to Buffy because she can't seem
to get her feet on the ground to what her relationship is going to be with her mom. Joyce seems
equally confused noting only that she is still scared Buffy will vanish. One can certainly understand
her fear.
It is in BAND CANDY that we start to understand maybe who Joyce was before she was Mrs.
Summers. When she and Giles are kicked back to their youth, she reveals a devil may care attitude
and a zest that is unlike Joyce. We can only guess that time, marriage and pain have aged her so
much that that inner child is almost completely lost. She throws caution to the wind, finally take a
leap at the Big G. It's truly fascinating to see this Joyce in action. Shades of her daughter? What
stopped this activity? Is it part of why she is so hardcore on keeping Buff in line? She seems to
delight in rebelling in a way that even Buff never has. And since this image of Giles is consistent
with expectations of his youth, it makes sense that Joyce is also. Of course when the magicks wear
off, Joyce's sensibilities return and she is suitably embarrassed.
Things are going pretty well for Buffy and Joyce but mom still hasn't dropped her hope that Buffy
will find a way out of this hell. With Faith in the picture, things look promising. Especially
considering how high Buff scored in her SATS. But it's the same drill as always; Buffy is reluctant.
Still Joyce pushes, even scheduling college talks.
It's funny how some knowledge will get you in the drivers' seat. We see how calm she has become,
how confident. She only wants the best for Buffy and this all looks right. When Spike comes by the
house, she even has an amusing moment with him where she draws from her experiences with Hank
to give him advice. And since we know from the flashbacks in BECOMING 2 that their relationship
was quite troubled, it's all very interesting.
It is in LOVERS WALK where we finally see Angel and Joyce finally appear in a scene together
again. She warns him away, not understanding that the true threat is the blonde vamp behind her.
Buffy quickly diffuses the situation but suddenly Joyce is confused over who is good and who is evil.
Troubling concepts for someone trying to understand that dead doesn't always mean dead.
Sadly though, the time for Joyce not to understand is coming to a close. In GINGERBREAD, she is
forced to finally understand that what meets the eye is often just an illusion. Thrown into hysteria
by a demon due to her compassion for the deaths of children, she almost does the unthinkable by
killing her own child. At Buffy's witch-trial, she finally vents a bit.
Joyce: Since when does it matter what I want? I wanted a normal, happy daughter. Instead I got a
Slayer.
GINGERBREAD
The only disappointing thing here is that we don't get to see how Joyce reacts to what she almost
does to her daughter but it's clear that she finally understands the nature of the world she lives in.
And that even those claiming the righteous ground can be consumed by it.
Of course Joyce doesn't have much time to consider the moral lesson she has just learned before she
is placed in mortal jeopardy by Buffy's world. When the very people who are supposed to protect
Buffy insist on putting her through a trial, the demon Buffy is supposed to fight without her powers
takes Joyce hostage. And while afraid, Joyce remains confident, assured of her daughters' strength
and courage. It is this ep that we truly see the strength of Buffy's devotion for her mother. Even
powerless and assured of death, Buffy goes to save her mom.
The last major thing that happens in relation to Joyce during third season aside from Buffy insisting
her mom leave Sunnydale before Graduation in order to keep her safe is the conversation she has
with Angel.
Joyce: Oh. I understand Buffy spent the night.
Angel: I'm sorry about that. We came back after patrol.
Joyce: I, I'm not interested in the details. That's not why I'm here.
Angel: Okay.
Joyce: I'm here because I'm worried about you two. In general.
Angel: What happened before, when I changed, it won't happen again.
Joyce: That's not all I'm concerned about. I don't have to tell you that you and Buffy are from
different worlds.
Angel: No, you don't.
Joyce: She's had to deal with a lot. Grew up fast. Sometimes even I forget that she's still just a
girl.
Angel: I'm old enough to be her ancestor.
Joyce: She's just starting out in life.
Angel: I know. I think about it more now that she's staying in Sunnydale.
Joyce: Good. Because when it comes to you, Angel, she's just like any other young woman in love.
You're all she can see of tomorrow. But I think we both know that there are some hard choices
ahead. If she can't make them, you're gonna have to. I know you care about her. I just hope you care
enough.
THE PROM
It's all really a bit of emotional blackmail but her intentions are sound. She is worried about her
daughter and rightfully so. Angel is a vamp and he has already caused Buffy so much pain. Joyce is
simply trying to take care of her little girl. This is paralleled when in GRADUATION Buff orders her
mom out of town. She never really gives her a choice in the matter.
We don't know if Joyce ever liked Angel but we do know she certainly respected him and her
objections to him were based on the age old concept of him not being good enough for her baby girl.
Angel, sadly, agreed. Interestingly, Buffy never found out about Joyce's roll in her beloveds'
departure.
TBC-
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[> Re: First Anniversary Post- Joyce Pt 2 -- The Godfather, 16:37:20 09/27/01 Thu
SEASON 4
Season 4 starts with Buffy moving into the new dorms and Joyce moving quickly to deal with her
empty nest syndrome. She has moved boxes from the gallery into her daughters' room in order to
achieve the effect of a filled house. It's disillusioning for Buffy but revealing for Joyce. She has lived
her whole life for Buffy and now Buff no longer needs her. She needs to fill that void quickly.
The next time we see her is in full mothering mode when she is trying to comfort Buffy about what
Parker did to her.
Joyce: "Oh, that's not true actually. The candy was for me. - Your father loved spending time
with you." Buffy looks down: "Not enough, I guess." Joyce: "Buffy."
Buffy: "Oh, that just paved right over memory lane, huh?" Joyce: "Our divorce had
nothing to do with you." Buffy swallows: "I don't know. - I'm starting to feel like there is
a pattern here. - Open your heart to someone, and he bails on you. Maybe it's easier to just not let
anyone in." Joyce gets up: "I thought it might be easier. You must have noticed that I am
not exactly the social butterfly I was when I was with your dad. I don't think I made a single new
friend the year we moved to Sunnydale." Buffy: "Why not?" Joyce: "Fear. I
didn't believe I could trust anyone again. It's taken time and a lot of effort, but I've got a nice circle of
friends now. - I mean, don't get me wrong. I - I'm still a little gun shy. It certainly didn't help that my
last boyfriend turned out to be a homicidal robot. I will *always* be here for you. And you got Mr.
Giles and your friends.Believe me, there is nothing to be afraid of."
FEAR ITSELF
This dialogue is nice because it brings back moments from the past(even if it doesn't admit to the
confirmed loving she received from Giles) in regards to Ted and Hank. She speaks without pain
about her ex-husband and she assures Buffy that no matter what, she's there. She tells Buff to open
her heart up and trust again. It makes you think that Joyce has a fella on the side.
Unfortunately Joyce goes into MIA territory after this. It appears that Buff becomes so involved in
her new life with the Initiative and Riley that she forgets her mother. No one cracks the point home
harder than Faith who resents all that Buffy has but fails to appreciate.
Joyce: Actually, I was thinking my daughter is going to kill you soon.
Faith: Is that a fact?
Joyce: More like a bet.
Faith: (smiling) Whoa. You got a pair on you, Joyce. I like seeing that in a woman your age. (steps
closer to the bed) Guess you can afford to talk that way. I mean, in the world according to Joyce,
Buffy is gonna come crashing through that door any minute.
(Joyce doesn't say anything but is trying to remain calm.)
Faith: But . . . look what I found.
(Faith grabs a bundle of envelopes from the table and hops onto the bed beside her. She starts
flipping through the pieces of mail.)
Faith: 'Buffy Summers. Buffy Summers. Buffy Summers. Buffy. Buffy.' A lot of letters. She, uh,
hasn't been by in a while, huh? And you'd think with a crazy chick like me on the loose --crazy chick
with a wicked grudge against her, no less-- she'd call and give you a heads-up. But Buffy's too into
her own deal to remember dear old mom.
(Faith gets up and stands in front of the bed again.)
Joyce: You don't know the first thing about Buffy. Or me.
Faith: Don't I? I know what it's like. You think you matter. You think you're a part of something and
you get dumped. It's like the whole world is moving but you're stuck. Like those animals in the tar
pits. It's like you just keep sinking a little deeper everyday and nobody even sees.
Joyce: (sounding bored) Were you planning to slit my throat anytime soon?
Faith: Don't tell me you don't see it, Joyce. You served your purpose. You squirted out the kid, raised
her up, and now you might as well be dead! I mean, nobody cares! Nobody remembers! Especially not
Buffy-fabulous-super-hero! Sooner or later you're gonna have to face it. She was over us a long time
ago, Joyce. (voice rising to a shout) Too busy climbing onto her new boytoy to give a single thought to
the people that matter! I mean, you're her mother and she just leaves you here to die!
THIS YEARS' GIRL
And sadly, this is all true. The bonds have broken down between mother and daughter and Joyce
feels un-needed. Buffy never comes by and Joyce is alone. She's lived her whole life for Buffy. It's
heartbreaking but just the same, showing that Summers spirit, Joyce believes that Buffy will come
and is rewarded by her daughters' arrival.
However the concept that she has been put away and out of Buff's life comes into play again in
RESTLESS.
JOYCE: Oh, hi, honey. BUFFY: Why are you living in the walls? JOYCE: Oh, sweetie, no, I'm fine
here. Don't worry about me.
BUFFY: It looks dirty. JOYCE: Well, it seems that way to you. I made some lemonade, and I'm
learning how to play mah-jongg. You go find your friends. BUFFY: I, I think they might be in
danger.
JOYCE: I-I'm sorry, dear. Um, a mouse is playing with my knees. BUFFY: I, I really don't think you
should live in there.
JOYCE: Well ... you could ... probably break through the wall.
RESTLESS
At the end of this, Joyce asks her to break down the walls Buffy has put between them but Buffy
walks away. Joyce seems content with where she is but we see that she would rather be with
Buffy.
SEASON 5
Season 5 opens with Joyce telling Buffy that she is lonely and Buff promising to make up for that.
She tells her mom that they should get together mom and you can see that Joyce misses the old
relationship they had, when they were tight. Just the same, things are changing very quickly.
In the final frame of this ep, we are introduced to Dawn who is Joyce's other child. Th